More stalling issues with Rhett's Celeb

[Duke George V]

I love this car.

Today when coming home from work the Celeb stalled on the highway. Would not immediately start again. After a time, probably about fifteen minutes, it started back up. I got as far as the next exit and it died again, but restarted a few mintes later. Got off the highway and another mile on the road, dead. Waited twenty minutes, started again. Drove another mile or so, stall. Waited a half hour, restarted once more, got two miles this time... and on like this.

Stalled a total of five times. This is eerily reminiscent of my trip back from Iowa, which is leading me to believe it's fuel-related again. Please tell me I'm wrong. I don't have another car to sell this time to pay for repairs. It doesn't seem like TCC or anything like that, since I drove fast enough for it to lock, then slowed to a stop and didn't stall.

Attempted fixes: pulled ECM fuse for a minute; driving slow; driving with AC on to force the cooling fan on to avoid undue temperature increases; driving fast; allowing to cool for a time. Only allowing to cool for a time had any effect.

No trouble codes stored to my knowledge.

[LordDurock]

I love this car.

Today when coming home from work the Celeb stalled on the highway. Would not immediately start again. After a time, probably about fifteen minutes, it started back up. I got as far as the next exit and it died again, but restarted a few mintes later. Got off the highway and another mile on the road, dead. Waited twenty minutes, started again. Drove another mile or so, stall. Waited a half hour, restarted once more, got two miles this time... and on like this.

Stalled a total of five times. This is eerily reminiscent of my trip back from Iowa, which is leading me to believe it's fuel-related again. Please tell me I'm wrong. I don't have another car to sell this time to pay for repairs. It doesn't seem like TCC or anything like that, since I drove fast enough for it to lock, then slowed to a stop and didn't stall.

Attempted fixes: pulled ECM fuse for a minute; driving slow; driving with AC on to force the cooling fan on to avoid undue temperature increases; driving fast; allowing to cool for a time. Only allowing to cool for a time had any effect.

No trouble codes stored to my knowledge.


had this happen on my dad 6.5 diesel. if its efi or tbi it might a driver and thats what fauild on my dads truck...............................my mommes 350 would die when it got hot out side............that was some fuel contrailer thing

i would take it for a drive when the motor total cooled off and see if it run fine then................
i would call a guy ata gm dealership in hte serive department ans she what he.she has to say...........

[Duke George V]

I made it home eventually, and I'm not gonna drive for a few hours and see what happens then. Hopefully it won't do it again, but with my luck...

[dcjredline]

Man it sounds like the TCC Duke. For fun did you try to unplug it on a cold engine? If its not that then spark could be the culprit also. FF should mainly be when your trying to give it gas not at a coast condition. The FF is also not normally intermittent.

[CieraSL92]

Bad Crankshaft position sensors often fail when hot and function once allowed to cool a bit. My regal (3800) would do the same, except there was maybe 15 or 20 minutes of good driving i'd get before it got hot enough to do exactly what your describing. I've seen this mroe than once, btw.

[Duke George V]

For those who didn't witness the trainwreck from the other forum, I'll give a brief history of this car.

Back in June I flew to Rhett's place in Iowa to buy this car from him. It's a 1989 Chevy Celebrity wagon, which he swapped a 3.1 from a '92 Cavalier into. On the drive home it stalled many times, and ended up being bad fuel injectors. I replaced two, he replaced one, so there are still three that may be weak. It's been okay until now, which is why I was concerned about it being a fuel-related problem again, as I don't have another $4-700 to throw at it.

According to Autozone, it may set a code 19 if the crankshaft sensor were bad, but as I said, there aren't any codes. The part seems to be relatively cheap ($22) but I'd rather not put one in if I'm not sure it'll fix it.

[notsoslimshady76]

I know money is an issue, but I tried replacing only bad injectors ad it bit me in the ass. I had to replace all 6 on my 3.1

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

According to Autozone, it may set a code 19 if the crankshaft sensor were bad, but as I said, there aren't any codes.

IT MAY...or MAY NOT.,...

So Far:

1. Only when it is HOT (driven awhile) does it fail...

Potential:

A. Oil Pressure Sending Unit - If it runs fuel pump

B. Hot Electrical Wire Shooting Craps....were any main power wires spliced?

C. Ignition Switch getting hot...and shooting craps.

[Duke George V]

Well, the verdict is in. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

I started it and checked the spark by pulling plug wires off of the coil. All of then had orange spark, certainly a bad sign. I drove it around a bit, and luckily it died while I was in my apartment complex, saving me a long push home. I again checked the spark while I had my wife crank it, and there was no spark at all on all three coil packs. $204.68 later, I have three new coil packs and an ignition control module from Autozone.

Now, I need some numbers. What size bolts hold this shebang together? I'm hearing 13 mm deepwell and 5.5 mm, neither of which I have. Can I get some confirmation here?

[CieraSL92]

All three coils failing at the same time? That's almost impossible. ICM is a possibility.

5.5mm is what holds the packs to the ICM, I don't recall what the ICM bolts are.

Also, for what it's worth I have never seen a Crank sensor set a code.

[Duke George V]

All three coils failing at the same time? That's almost impossible. ICM is a possibility.
But the possibility exists, yes? The probability is low, but non-zero.

5.5mm is what holds the packs to the ICM, I don't recall what the ICM bolts are.
ICM bolts are 13 for sure, I need a deepwell for one of them though because it's got a threaded portion sticking out.

Also, for what it's worth I have never seen a Crank sensor set a code.
Hopefully I don't have to worry about that, and this will do the trick.

As for doing all three coils and the ICM, I just don't want to have to do the job again if one or the other doesn't fix it, ie replacing just the coils and the ICM is bad, or vice versa. It's just easier to do them all, since it takes the same amount of time to not change the coil packs.

[dcjredline]

I WIN! Yeah from a tip I got from someone I dont remember who, you dont have to take the 13mm out. Just get the 5.5's out of each coil and the ICM is under them and will just fall out at that point. SAVES YA A TON OF TIME!!!

PLEASE LET US KNOW HOW IT WENT!!

KEEP IN MIND That the CPS allows spark to flow doesnt it? Maybe you still DO have a faulty CPS, then I would NOT win.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Well, the verdict is in

I started it and checked the spark by pulling plug wires off of the coil.

ignition control module



You did not rule out ICM...it would be most logical...not all three coils...ICM runs all three.

[Duke George V]

You did not rule out ICM...it would be most logical...not all three coils...ICM runs all three.

As for doing all three coils and the ICM, I just don't want to have to do the job again if one or the other doesn't fix it, ie replacing just the coils and the ICM is bad, or vice versa. It's just easier to do them all, since it takes the same amount of time to not change the coil packs.
I am replacing them all to make sure I don't have to do the job again later.

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

I WIN! Yeah from a tip I got from someone I dont remember who, you dont have to take the 13mm out. Just get the 5.5's out of each coil and the ICM is under them and will just fall out at that point. SAVES YA A TON OF TIME!!!


That was me man... I just read the thread, and each post I keep thinking to myself that its the ICM, its the only thing that makes sense. Anyways, hope it fixes your problem man..

[notsoslimshady76]

If you haven't done it already, I found the best way for the middle coilpack lower bolt is to get it as though your changing your oil filter. Lots of extensions are your friend. Sry its in such a terrible place!!

[CieraSL92]

You know, I was just thinkingt about this. When the crank went on my Buick, it would act as if someone totally shutoff the spark. I got no orange spark, just none. It'd be fine after it cooled though. So yeah, probably ICM in my opinion.

[Duke George V]

The verdict is back out. While it's a statistical anomaly, all three coil packs as well as the ICM were bad. However, that apparently did not cure the problem, as it died the same way on the way back from Autozone. Luckily I had the foresight to have my mother-in-law follow me just in case, and towed the car back to my house.

I did get a check engine light this time just before it died. I don't know which terminals to jump though, so I haven't checked what code it might be. But the fact that it came on leads me to believe that it is in fact the crank sensor. Can I get a second opinion?

[dcjredline]

CPS as I said is what tells the ICM when to fire the coils. You could have one. there is an easy way to test it. The 2 or 3 pin plug on the ICM is the plug for it. I would have to look in the manual again for ya though. Test the resistance of that and it wll tell ya. In your case test it coold and then test it when the car is dead or HOT. BE CAREFUL CAUSE ITS TIGHT DOWN THERE AND THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD IS RIGHT THERE.

[CieraSL92]

Pretend this is the diagnostic connector:

ABCDEFGHI
ABCDEQAH

You want to short the far top right. so that would be H to I and the cooling fan will come on, and it will start giving codes. Again, I have never heard of a CPS setting a code. I don't know the variables it would take to sent one though. The crank sensor is located behind the harmonic balancer.

Haynes has a procedure for checking it at the ICM, but I believe the crank sensor goes directly to the ECM which fires the ICM, thereby the coils. I could be wrong though.

[Duke George V]

Checked for codes, none were stored, other than 12 which is not applicable (distributor-related). Back to square one. I think I'll put a crank sensor in for the hell of it. Like I said, it's not a very expensive part. What size is the bolt that holds it in?

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

I think it was a 8mm or a 10mm. It helps to take the alternator off, and the alternator bracket. If you havent done a tune up in a while, a good time to do it while your in the area.

[Duke George V]

Why would I need to take the alternator off?

[mickstan_VR]

you'll find out if you don't................

[dcjredline]

It IS indeed an 8mm. With the AWD there is BARELY enough room to get anything in there let alone get the CPS OUT!!!!!

Let us know.

[Duke George V]

Wow. Hopefully I'll have better luck since I don't have a transfer case to contend with.

[notsoslimshady76]

3.1 is a good motor, but occasionally there is a dud or 2, sorry for your troubles. i was there before with my Supreme

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I did get a check engine light this time just before it died. I don't know which terminals to jump though,

FAQ: How to read older GM codes for free
(http://www.obd-codes.com/faq/read-gm-2-digit-obd-codes-free.php)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

While it's a statistical anomaly, all three coil packs as well as the ICM were bad.


Says who...I would have to fetch my OEM shop manual...but there should be a way to do an ohm test...on coils

[CieraSL92]

You can ohm them. Haynes has the acceptable values for it.

I'm buying myself an ice cream if its the crank sensor that's bad.

[dcjredline]

BTW, Thanks Brian that tip saved me a ton of STUPID work. I do that all the time now. I used it this last weekend at the JY wow what a time saver.

[dcjredline]

George... Didnt you see post #25? I said "It IS indeed an 8mm. " Why you addin steps to your painful adventure?
You dont trust someone whom just did it? LOL I like the "3 easy steps"

[Duke George V]

George... Didnt you see post #25? I said "It IS indeed an 8mm. " Why you addin steps to your painful adventure?
You dont trust someone whom just did it?
Guess I missed that.

LOL I like the "3 easy steps"
I try.

Hey, how about this gets submitted to the knowledge base?