The STE saga

[dcjredline]

Well I am jonesin looking at the 2 AWD STE's sitting there and the snow falling outside. SOOOOO I was thinking about RUSTE the other day and I WONDER how big of a possibility is could be that the FP that I put in there NEW Master pump from AZ is BAD!

Pressure will build to 42psi and hold, it seems to fluctuate between ~35 and ~45 when cranking. There also is that rushing sound when the pump is running like fuel or air running through the rails. And the car wont start at all without my foot on the floor (With the pedal under it) then if it does start it is running like its outta time and the RPM's wont go much over 300 at WOT.

Maybe I have a bad pump outta the box. It just seems like too much work if it doesnt fix it AGAIN!!! This would be the 5th or 6th time I took the freakin tank outta the car already.

[Tuddi]

How about mounting an aftermarket pump? One that does not need you to remove the tank? I placed the pump on the inner fender under the hood. Got to get me a spare one if it fails, but it is in plain view and easy to verify if it is running or not. Yours is connected to the computer, or is it only connected to the ignition switch?

[Jr's3800]

Don, Can you swap out the Fuel pressure regulator from one car to the other or is it physically part of the Rail?

Eventhough it holds pressure, it almost sounds like its bypassing to easy when the pump is running... Just a thought..

Also does this pump use a pulsator, or a piece of rubber fuel line from the pump to the Sending unit / fuel line ? If so was it replaced when you did the pump?

[LordDurock]

wow you still have trouble with this.............get a carb they almost always work

[Tuddi]

Carbs are simple and reliable. If they fail, it's easy to clean them out and they'll be fully working again.

But the thing I don't know is: Would it be easy to convert a computerized fuel injected engine, to a non computerized and carbed engine? Removal of all sensors and such crap would of course have to be done. Personally I don't like puters in cars... it only complicates already complicated issues. An engine is supposed to work, and not get some "blue screens of death" due to a broken circuit in a microchip.

[LordDurock]

Carbs are simple and reliable. If they fail, it's easy to clean them out and they'll be fully working again.

But the thing I don't know is: Would it be easy to convert a computerized fuel injected engine, to a non computerized and carbed engine? Removal of all sensors and such crap would of course have to be done. Personally I don't like puters in cars... it only complicates already complicated issues. An engine is supposed to work, and not get some "blue screens of death" due to a broken circuit in a microchip.

should be easy get a carb intake slap it on there with a carb crank, adjust, be happy. let hte computer fart and beep. but computer are realy nice on cars but they should interfer with being able to make it run when push somes to shove. i want to be able to have fuel but cut off when i engein break. but i also want to beable to jump the battry to dissrpter/ or in my case the IP and crank (vita key or srewdriver) and limp home.

[dcjredline]

Don, everything has been swapped out 10 times, the pump NOW has a piece of hose connecting it to the line leaving the tank cause that was my FIRST thinking that it was loose in there. Which is mainly why I have removed and replaced the tank 3 times. There has been 3 different FPR's on it and same result. The one from the blue car is not regulatin so that one was WORSE FP was at 60 with that regulator in. Which is why the blue cars measure of FP was 40psi and when I had the rail off and ran the pump the gas would only trickle out. LOL

I am not taking a 1 of 1376 car and converting it back to a carb. I would rather it sit in my driveway and wash it all the time then convert it to 1900 technology sorry guys not an option.

[Tuddi]

:) It may be a 19th century principle, but it works very well. It's like the missionary position... it's been in use for hundreds of millenia... not the most advanced position, but it works.

We who have that old technology, don't have to worry about a puter glitch or injectors or other such things which are paralyzing later model cars. I am in no doubt that computerized models can deliver a LOT more when they are ok, but it's the times they are NOT ok which worry me. It's bad enough when it's a carb model making problems, but I'd rather have a problem I can solve easily and mechanically, rather than a problem which requires months of speculation, 23 technicians and a lot full of computer testing equipment (that can also have it's own glitches).

Simple is good when it comes to cars.

[LordDurock]

:) It may be a 19th century principle, but it works very well. It's like the missionary position... it's been in use for hundreds of millenia... not the most advanced position, but it works.

We who have that old technology, don't have to worry about a puter glitch or injectors or other such things which are paralyzing later model cars. I am in no doubt that computerized models can deliver a LOT more when they are ok, but it's the times they are NOT ok which worry me. It's bad enough when it's a carb model making problems, but I'd rather have a problem I can solve easily and mechanically, rather than a problem which requires months of speculation, 23 technicians and a lot full of computer testing equipment (that can also have it's own glitches).

Simple is good when it comes to cars.

right on i tell my dad had this 84 chevy pickup with a 6.5 turbo diesel (we go rid of the 6.2) he used to drive all over the county for years with it had everything go wrong but it had i kid you not 750,000+ on it, iwht random wiring shorts leaving everything dead. but at the end of the day 3 feet of wire with algoter clips to link the poitive tremnal on the batty to the IP and a a short heavy wire to work the glow plugs and you could drive it all over the county. just park on a hill so you cna drop the clutch. :D

in the end it just has to work.

dj
have you checked the comp and all the sencors going into it.
and check the timeing i know that when my and my buddy had a 350 apart and the timeing was off it would barly run unless we had are foot in it

[dcjredline]

Durock that is what I am fearing the MOST timing.Guess I should buy some starting fluid and see if itll start that way before replacing anything else. I may swap all the good stuff INTO the Blue car NEXT spring and MAYBE have one for next year. I AINT TEARIN THE ENGINE APART AND DOING A TIMING CHAIN ANYTIME SOON!

I have swapped computers and tested pretty much every sensor. Even teh PAIN IN THE A$$ Crank sensor I replaced(Took me 3 hours, ALOT of cursin, and the skin was rubbed raw on the back of my hand from squeezin it between the transfer case and the firewall for about 2 weeks!

[Electra_T_Type]

Does the 3.1 have a distributor?

[dcjredline]

nope DIS.

[Jr's3800]

Don, are there any codes at all... You could have a timing issue, Crank sensor issue, ICM issue... ECM issue...

Please forgive me if I missed it.. But being that the car does have Fuel pressure, and that pressure is in the correct range....

When you go to start the car does it get to 300-400 rpms, or get that initial start from the ICM rattling the injectors? Does it Fire up a little say to 1200 rpms and then just die? Does it just stumble? Does it do nothing?

[LordDurock]

Durock that is what I am fearing the MOST timing.Guess I should buy some starting fluid and see if itll start that way before replacing anything else. I may swap all the good stuff INTO the Blue car NEXT spring and MAYBE have one for next year. I AINT TEARIN THE ENGINE APART AND DOING A TIMING CHAIN ANYTIME SOON!

I have swapped computers and tested pretty much every sensor. Even teh PAIN IN THE A$$ Crank sensor I replaced(Took me 3 hours, ALOT of cursin, and the skin was rubbed raw on the back of my hand from squeezin it between the transfer case and the firewall for about 2 weeks!

okay with ei (electrion ignistion) pop the part of (were the wire go) and inspeck that. check to make sure it working probley...........i've never has a motor that used that setup but i've been told to works that ever rotation of the cam it fires 2 times. so it fires once at tdc adn once at btc of the check to make sure thats timed right. if it isnt then you take 3 days and get it right.

[dcjredline]

There is good spark on all 3 front coils. Crank sensor is NEW since this no start problem cause old one was reading wrong resistance, ICM and coils have been tested OK at AZ and swapped with another tested good set, ECM has been switched from the blue car and same problem exists.

When I crank the car it will just crank and crank and not kick over. If I have it at WOT it will eventually kick over but run TERRIBLE and stay that way until I release the gas pedal at ALL. It runs like it is missing fuel.

Lines are clear from fuel filter through rails. Injectors are all at 11.8ohm, no leaks at injectors (Pulled the rail up and pressurized the system for ~2min.), Injectors all click when voltage is applied to them and sound very similar. Injector pulse is getting to both halfs of the injector harness. All plugs have been out and cleaned (They dont have more than 5k on them), TPS has been swapped, return line (with the regulator thing in it) has been swapped, Scanner reads NO CODES and while it is running at WOT the scan tool doesnt show any sign of a problem everything looks to be working properly but it is running like SHIP! And the RPMs only go to about 3-400

FP voltage fluctuates while cranking to about 9v and up to 13. Along with FP fluctuating I am really worried about the fuel pump cause other than timing and compression I have tested EVERYTHING ELSE.

[LordDurock]

a nougher though hows the fuel mix you might be running way rich or lean. do try the starting fuild but unplug the injectors or something so they dont spary fuel

it sound like you fuel system is bran spaking new at this point so i think we can rule that out. so yea timing or air to fuel mix seem to be it. hows the spary patern on hte injectors have you had that checked

[dcjredline]

No I dont have a way to do a spray pattern test. They have been 2 different sets of injectors though with the same results. I didnt think of disconnecting the injectors while trying to run on starting fluid though thats a pretty good idea. Thanks

[LordDurock]

yea whats the story behind the 2 set you used were did they come from ect.

[dcjredline]

Came from the other STE in my drive way, completely tested and all. Another rail was also tried with another FPR from a 1992 Corsica 3.1 (Where I got the injectors / Computer for RUSTE after purchase). That blue car has a bad FPR. And now a bad heart too. Along with the rear brakes being siezed so bad I had to POUND the calipers off the rotors.

[LordDurock]

Came from the other STE in my drive way, completely tested and all. Another rail was also tried with another FPR from a 1992 Corsica 3.1 (Where I got the injectors / Computer for RUSTE after purchase). That blue car has a bad FPR. And now a bad heart too. Along with the rear brakes being siezed so bad I had to POUND the calipers off the rotors.

so you dont know if the other cars injectors were working..................hum. if i were you idd see if she runs well on starting fuild. if so i would take on set of injectors down to a shop and get them tested. a bad spary patern can cause the problems your having

[Jr's3800]

On the 3.1 are the injectors on 3 drivers? In other words 2 of them fire at the same time( Batch Fire ) So if you were to have one bad injector on the circuit you'd have that circuit non functional?

Another thing I have heard is that when these sit up for an extended period of time, Say when using Ethanol blended fuel its possible for the injectors to go bad..

I agree about using the starting fluid and seeing what the car does.. You have Fuel pressure, and have ruled out a few other things...

Also check the Ohms of the injectors if you can even get to the injectors... I remember these being pretty well buried on the 60* V6's...

Don if there is anything I can look up for you Please let me know, I may have some info for your cars

[Tonglebeak]

You know, you could always part out one of the STEs... >______________>

[LordDurock]

On the 3.1 are the injectors on 3 drivers? In other words 2 of them fire at the same time( Batch Fire ) So if you were to have one bad injector on the circuit you'd have that circuit non functional?

Another thing I have heard is that when these sit up for an extended period of time, Say when using Ethanol blended fuel its possible for the injectors to go bad..

I agree about using the starting fluid and seeing what the car does.. You have Fuel pressure, and have ruled out a few other things...

Also check the Ohms of the injectors if you can even get to the injectors... I remember these being pretty well buried on the 60* V6's...

Don if there is anything I can look up for you Please let me know, I may have some info for your cars


dang i hope the bad injector issue is why my 3100 wount start.............but we'll see. when i get all the body damge fixed...............hijack over

[86euro]

So what's the fuel pressure with the motor running? If it's good, at least check the compression on the front cylinders.

[LordDurock]

So what's the fuel pressure with the motor running? If it's good, at least check the compression on the front cylinders.

havent go in to it yet but will do when i the rest of the car together

[CieraSL92]

Engine mechanical failure REALLY sounds likely. When you swapped computers, was this with a one that was tested prior to installation? If you just swapped it from the blue car, it could be bad too.

Compression check. Def.

3.1 is not batch-fire. 3300 is. The 3.1 has a cam sensor, while the 3300 does not.

[CieraSL92]

I wanted to add this. Every car I've ever really done engine work on has been fuel injected, either throttle body or multi-port. So, in a sense if you start off on fuel injection cars like I did, you'd think carbs were OK when they were working good, but suck when there not. Similar to the way you think about Fuel injection cars.

Doesn't your 84 have a computer controlled mixture solenoid in the carb though?

[LordDurock]

I wanted to add this. Every car I've ever really done engine work on has been fuel injected, either throttle body or multi-port. So, in a sense if you start off on fuel injection cars like I did, you'd think carbs were OK when they were working good, but suck when there not. Similar to the way you think about Fuel injection cars.

Doesn't your 84 have a computer controlled mixture solenoid in the carb though?

i do have to say carbs are way easyer to fix you need one a srewdriver two a vac guage, and if thats not working a 15 dollor rebuild kit. and some new jets. you spend about 100 on them.

[86euro]

3.1 is not batch-fire. 3300 is. The 3.1 has a cam sensor, while the 3300 does not.

3.1 is batch fire, '94-up 3100 is sequential with cam sensor. Same displacement, but renamed to differentiate from the older gen2 motors because of the major changes.

[CieraSL92]

My bad. I was thinking of the 3100.

[86euro]

It's kind of funny, really. GM changed they way the named the motors to avoid confusion, but ended up making it even more confusing:rolleyes:

[dcjredline]

I have measured resistance on every injector I have in the garage. Both computers being bad the same way is so unlikely that I am not going to go buy another one to try it.

Cant get the car to run enough to test the FP or when it was crappy running I didnt have the FP gauge on it. Pretty sure I am still having a fuel problem. Its either that or a bad engine.

Tongle. The red car is the only one with good rear brakes on it. I dont want to give up the blue cars stuff for JUST the rear brackets cause that will render it useless unless I find another set. I see how easy that is.

[Tonglebeak]

Well I tried >_>

[LordDurock]

Well I tried >_>

hey. i dont mean to be rude but a rear disk upgrade isnt going to do much for your breaking proformince.

[CieraSL92]

Not a whole lot, no it won't. But then you'll have a nice rear disc to look at instead of a drum.

[CieraSL92]

Also, you said it would only start if you have the pedal to the floor? The injectors will stop when the comp sees WOT during cranking. I.E If it starts with no injectors, then it was previously flooded.

2nd. Clogged cat?

[86euro]

Also, you said it would only start if you have the pedal to the floor? The injectors will stop when the comp sees WOT during cranking. I.E If it starts with no injectors, then it was previously flooded.

2nd. Clogged cat?

Hmm, there's a thought. Loosen/lower the down pipe and see if it runs better.

As for the rear brake conversation, I don't think AWD brackets will be the same and yes, the swap is well worth it for braking performance- not just looks.

[dcjredline]

:confused: You mean disconnect the exhaust? Why would that help a flood?

Injectors arent leaking? And even when it does run its running like TOTAL CRAP and only at 400rpm at WOT. Doesnt this sound weird if it WERE flooded then I did that it should clear the flood and run well eventually right? I had it run crappy for at least 2 min one time and it NEVER cleared up.

[86euro]

Sorry, I did the quote wrong. My suggestion was aimed at determining if the exhaust was clogged or not. But the injector thing is interesting... if it starts with the pedal to the floor, then it's starting with no fuel. What would cause that if it's not flooded:confused:

[The Dark Side of Will]

i do have to say carbs are way easyer to fix you need one a srewdriver two a vac guage, and if thats not working a 15 dollor rebuild kit. and some new jets. you spend about 100 on them.

Having worked with both, I'll take EFI any day of the week.

[CieraSL92]

I know you probably don't want to try screwing around with the factory flanges, so soak the O2 sensor in PB and remove it. If it's completely clogged, it will allow the engine to start and idle properly. My 3800 regal would misfire, barely start and WOULD not stay running without throttle. It was the cat. Removing the 02 sensor would allow it to run.

Also, a clogged cat will not alow enough flow. Thereby, the fuel and air stay in the cylinder (for the most part, a little may be exhausted)

For what it's worth, I could hammer on the regals cat and hear no rattles.

Edit: I still find it difficult to believe this is timing chain or compression related. Previous to this, it had zero fuel pressure, but even further back it ran well.

[dcjredline]

SL yes sir you are right that is what BOGS my mind. The Timing chain braking while sitting waiting for a FP replacement is just NUTZ and compression is also.

I guess I have 2 things in front of me BEFORE posting any more questions. Try the starting fluid and make sure no little mice (There were some in the garage) built a nest in my exhaust while it was cut for tank removal!! A possibility I never thought of before!!!

I just cant seem to get past how a mouse nest would be so dense as to clog a CAT. None the less this is what I will be trying!!!

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE HELP! I sure hope it is a clogged cat or something SIMPLE!!:D:D

[LordDurock]

SL yes sir you are right that is what BOGS my mind. The Timing chain braking while sitting waiting for a FP replacement is just NUTZ and compression is also.

I guess I have 2 things in front of me BEFORE posting any more questions. Try the starting fluid and make sure no little mice (There were some in the garage) built a nest in my exhaust while it was cut for tank removal!! A possibility I never thought of before!!!

I just cant seem to get past how a mouse nest would be so dense as to clog a CAT. None the less this is what I will be trying!!!

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE HELP! I sure hope it is a clogged cat or something SIMPLE!!:D:D

if you remove the exhsause the manafolds and she starts and runs dont run her for long becuase the cold air right nexted to the exsause vaulse when you shut her down could cause them to crack................:(

[Tonglebeak]

A mouse killing the cat? Now there's something you don't see everyday.

[Tuddi]

A mouse killing the cat? Now there's something you don't see everyday.

:D nice one!

[dcjredline]

That was a funny one Tongle. IF that is whats wrong I will have to open the cat to find out what the heck did it for sure. Then if its a mouse nest I will have to use that as a caption!!

[86euro]

Haha, that was funny:)

If you had mice in your garage, take the rear seat bottoms out of your 'Bird and make sure they aren't nesting there. I don't know how they get in there, but I come across it time and time again.

[LordDurock]

no mice here we got 2 barn cats the they breed like rabbits..............:D

there i wise investmend just feed and water. they do the rest including finding a place to stay.

[dcjredline]

Bird was being used during that time so the STE was the better target, Formula gets moth balled each winter when being stored. There also are some moth balls in the rafters now that keeps the mice out. Along with sealing up all the spots they can get in (HOPEFULLY)

[CieraSL92]

...So...You take that O2 sensor out?

[dcjredline]

No sir, I work from 0600 - 9pm 3 days a week and I have my daughter 2. I wont get to it until MAYBE Friday or Saturday at the soonest. I need to take the cover off, put a battery in it and then get to the rest. Its a long process and if its raining I aint doing it. The spoiler is off and the windshield is cracked / with out the molding around it.

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Tongle, the rear brake caliper brackets off the AWD will not work for your car. You need a standard STE rear brake bracket..

Don, you still have my phone number. I just had some ideas, remembering how the story went from when you limped the car home, to where it is now. Call me when you get to the car to work on it. Only if you wernt so far away, I would come help LOL... Sending you a PM with my number just in case you lost my number again..

[dcjredline]

Well dont forget I limped it home because the Fuel Pump WAS DEFINITELY BAD. There is no 2 ways about that just so your clear. I will call DONT you worry. I can use all the help no matter HOW far away!! LOL i'll keep ya on speaker phone!! :cool:

[CieraSL92]

Take out the oxygen sensor! I wanna see if I was right.

[dcjredline]

I do too SL I do too. Yesterday was a BEAUTIFUL day too. I had my daughter all day and she is just getting over a cold so I didnt get out there and mess with it. If there is a decent day this Thursday or Sat or Sun I will be out there. If it IS whats wrong ITS going back into the garage for the windshield replacement and a new power antenna THEN I am going to the DMV to have my NASTY day winter car back.

EDIT:
OH yeah I took that crappy compressor out too so I will have to figure out something there too, maybe take the good struts off the blue car and put them on there.

[CieraSL92]

So... Hows this goin?

[dcjredline]

30F here lately so needless to say I am not standing out in that weather to put a battery in it and TRY this. Sorry guys I have the Caliber to drive so this is NOT top on my list. Ya know? It may be a spring project.

If that IS whats wrong the car still needs rear struts changed over and the radiator too. At least if it did start I could DRIVE it into the garage.

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

LOL, I am still wondering if my hunch is right. Your gonna kick yourself in the nuts if I am right.. Call me man..

[dcjredline]

So 86Euro and CieraSL92 were RIGHT! Thank you to both of you. I wish I had the time last fall to try that then I could have been drivin him all winter.

[CieraSL92]

Glad to hear it!

[86euro]

Nice! Glad to hear it.

It's been so long that I had to go back and see what we were right about:lol:

[dcjredline]

Yeah I was readin the post and saw you 2 say that and I thought you deserved your props. Thanks guys its nice to have helpful people you can count on who actually have a freakin CLUE!!!