Viability of W-body-style dual torque struts

[Duke George V]

I don't know if anyone else with the MFI engines has had this problem, but the aluminum bracket that the dogbone bolts onto seems to be held to the engine by three bolts that I can see, two of which are near the AC compressor. The third is, for lack of a better term, "under" the dogbone in a sort of a valley, and it threads into the block. This bolt has a tendency to back out due to the vibrations from the engine, essentially removing the dogbone from the equation in regards to mounting. I've already retapped the hole in M10x1.5 in the past. I'm gonna jam that fucker back in with some red loctite tomorrow morning, and hopefully it'll stay there for a while. I'll be sure to take pictures so you guys can see what I'm talking about. Here's an old one I added an annotation to:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/dogbone.jpg

That said, I was brainstorming with the wife earlier today and got to thinking about the W-body torque strut setup. The A-body uses a single strut on the passenger side, while the W-body has another on the driver side. I think the W uses a different style strut assembly. Anybody familiar with the differences between the two platforms? Can the W style struts be used on an A? I was thinking I'd probably have to drill some holes in the... header?—that area just over the top of the radiator—in order to use the W bracket. Since they used the same engine during the overlap years, the block should have the mounting bosses, shouldn't it?

The reason I'm considering this is because it seems like this issue has ruined the rest of the nearly-new engine and transmission mounts. The engine/tranny will move under heavy load and make a distressing clunk. That's never good for the drivetrain.

[Duke George V]

Guys, what does an aneurysm feel like...?

The primitive method of human verbal communication is incapable of expressing the amount of unadulterated fury I'm currently experiencing. I'm certain the following images will engender the same in all who behold them, so be warned.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff1.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff2.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff3.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff4.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff5.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff6.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff7.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff8.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff9.jpg

A brief summary: the aluminum bracket the dogbone bolts to is broken, and the grade 10.9 bolt that was holding it to the block is sheared off. To further rub salt in this already gaping wound, it would appear that the air conditioning compressor will have to be moved in order to remove the shattered remains of that bracket and install a new one.

Fuck me running backwards through a corn field, does it get any better than this?

[Prospeeder]

Damn, how the hell.....I have had that thing off and on and its stayed tight. That compressor is one bitch to get off, just move it off to the side you should be fine. Wbodies, mehh...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Prospeeder/Turbo%20Grand%20Prix/100_1149.jpg

It has an entire bracket our cars dont. Im sure we have the holes for it tho.

[Duke George V]

Ghetto fix incoming.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/ohgodhowdidthisgethereiamnotgoodwit.jpg

[cutlassburnin]

lmao :lol: Now thats creative. I never did trust the 3.1 I had in the gp.

[Duke George V]

It's a 500 lb strap. I don't plan on leaving it like that for long though.

[Prospeeder]

Hey the 3.1 is probably the most realiable of all the engines, I have 2 of them. That sort of thing isnt common, lol. I think that will hold, run to the junkyard and grab another braket!

[SilentWing]

Hey if it works until you can fix it (as long as it's fairly soon) why not? Especially if it's your daily driver. But Dayum that bracket really got busted bad, I forgot the 3.1 had two brackets, at least you're fixing it the right way.

[Duke George V]

Only the W cars (Grand Prix, Lumina, Regal, Cutlass Supreme) had two brackets and struts, A cars have only this one. I'm really boned until I can get this sorted out. Best I can do for now is to drive it as little as possible. I don't have any sort of broken bolt extraction tools either, so I'm really up shit creek without a paddle.

[86euro]

1. I've NEVER seen that happen before, unless the car was wrecked.

2. One of your top bolts is missing, which is likely what caused this fiasco to start with.

See the open hole in the bracket that is directly above a head bolt? That head bolt is supposed to have a stud on the head of it, for a special alignment nut to thread onto. The alignment nut fits snuggly in the hole in the bracket (above the head bolt). I suspect this was overlooked when the Cavi motor was installed by you know who.

Also, I have the parts if you have trouble locating them.

[Duke George V]

1. I've NEVER seen that happen before, unless the car was wrecked.
To my knowledge, it hasn't been in one.

2. One of your top bolts is missing, which is likely what caused this fiasco to start with.

See the open hole in the bracket that is directly above a head bolt? That head bolt is supposed to have a stud on the head of it, for a special alignment nut to thread onto. The alignment nut fits snuggly in the hole in the bracket (above the head bolt). I suspect this was overlooked when the Cavi motor was installed by you know who.
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/161/ffffuuuuuuu.jpg

THAT SON OF A BITCH

I just mocked up the bracket on a spare head and can see exactly what you're talking about. I always wondered about that hole. Even better is that if you look at the picture I took of that part of the head, you can see that part of the area around the bolt is broken too. Can you see where I'm going with this?

Looks like my timetable for performance modifications has been moved up.

[86euro]

If you replace the bracket, and use the correct head bolt arrangement, PLUS adapt the second W-body mount, you may be safe driving it with that broken bolt hole. Otherwise, I would want to replace the head if it were mine. Or switch them, lol.

[Duke George V]

Right, but switching them would cost the same in both time and money as putting the spare heads I have on after having them worked over. I don't know if you've been keeping up with my thread in Performance Mods (http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1584) but I have a few plans already (http://www.a-body.net/forums/showpost.php?p=27688&postcount=54) for this car. If I need to have the top end off, I may as well bite the bullet and do all that.

[Duke George V]

From autozone.com: Cavalier head bolt set.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/Cavalierheadbolt.jpg

Celebrity head bolt set.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/Celebrityheadbolt.jpg

One of these things is not like the other...

[SilentWing]

Is that shown actual size? I would hope that autozone messed up the sizing of the pics somehow because if not that's kind of scary. I know when we did my head gaskets they were some pretty big ass bolts... but I do have the 3100 so I don't know about the celebs

btw... I always find your rage pics so hilarious

[Duke George V]

Is that shown actual size? I would hope that autozone messed up the sizing of the pics somehow because if not that's kind of scary. I know when we did my head gaskets they were some pretty big ass bolts... but I do have the 3100 so I don't know about the celebs
I'd assume those pics aren't to scale. The point I was trying to make was confirming what 86euro said about the stud on one of the bolts. As you can see on the Cavi set, they're all the same, whereas the Celeb set has one bolt with a stud and nut on the end of it. The reason for that is the J-body V6 cars don't use a torque strut setup. Rhett probably specified the Cavi bolts and didn't take into account the differences between the two platforms in that regard.

Speaking of platform differences, I went to the junkyard to do some research about the brackets. The dual setup from the W cars isn't the way I wanna go. The place where the upper bracket would mount on the rad support naturally doesn't have any holes predrilled on the A car, and the hood release cable is in the way anyway. I'm not averse to drilling holes, but it probably wouldn't solve this problem. That said, the engine does have the mounting bosses on that end of the block for the larger bracket. A hook for engine removal is mounted there on A cars, that hook is part of the bracket on W cars. Two small issues though: the exhaust crossover is in the way, and a vacuum hard line going from the throttle body to what I presume is the transmission's vacuum modulator has to be routed differently. I'm a bonehead and forgot my camera, but I'll take it tomorrow.

I looked at a '94 Century 3100 though, and it seems to use the same mounting on the bracket, and it's steel instead of shitty cast aluminum, so I'm probably gonna snag that one. I didn't have the necessary tools to do it—that nut that goes on the end of the head stud is torx, probably a 45 or 50, and I didn't have any torx sockets. I borrowed a 5 pc set from my brother and will be returning tomorrow to get the steel bracket from the Century.

btw... I always find your rage pics so hilarious
Well, it was apt. Rhett lacked the foresight to specify Celebrity head bolts, now I have to deal with the consequences.

[86euro]

The 3100 bracket wont fit. Don't bother pulling one unless you change plans and go with a 3X00 top end swap.

[SilentWing]

Sorry I didn't mean Actual size I meant moreso the scale ie that the cavi bolts are that much bigger than the celebrity bolts. Too bad Andy said the 3100 bracket won't work, I wonder if anyone made an aftermarket steel one.

[Duke George V]

On the off chance that I could avoid the whole junkyard thing I went to a Chevy dealership to see if they had the bracket. Naturally, it has been discontinued by GM, and not a single dealership in the country has one. Autozone and Checker did not have a listing for the GM part number I gave them either.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/RAGE6.png

[Prospeeder]

lol yea GM has pretty much said fuck all of us old GM owners. They have discontinues all of the Master cylinder parts fo the power master 3 for w body cars and theres almost no aftermarket.....
Junkyard, lots of dead 2.8 and 3.1 cars out there

[Duke George V]

The 3100 bracket wont fit. Don't bother pulling one unless you change plans and go with a 3X00 top end swap.
I'm sure you're saying this from experience, but would you explain why, please? Part numbers for the rad bracket and dogbone are the same for MFI and SFI.

[86euro]

I'm sure you're saying this from experience, but would you explain why, please? Part numbers for the rad bracket and dogbone are the same for MFI and SFI.

To tell you the truth, I don't remember exactly why. The bolt locations may have been a little different on the block, but I seem to remember a hight difference where it bolts to the head also. If I have a chance, I can mock some parts up and give you an exact answer, but it may take a couple days. I have both style brackets, a GENII 2.8, a large-port 3100, and a small-port 3100, BUT, some things are at home, some at my storage unit, and some are at work.

[Duke George V]

Whenever you can get to it. I'd really like to use that steel one.

[turbokinetic]

DUDE that is bad. The broken bolt can most definately be removed from the head without pulling the head. You will need a cobalt steel or tungsten carbide drill bit to drill it out and use a screw extractor.

I agree that the missing alignment stud on the head bolt may have lead to this failure. That aluminum bracket needs all the support it can get. Thank heavens the Buick engines, as well as the iron-head 2.8 have steel brackets!

Hope the repair isn't too bad.

David

[86euro]

Sorry pal, looks like you're stuck with using the aluminum bracket. There is a minor hight difference where it bolts to the head, but that's not really the issue. The big problem is that the lower bolt holes are in completely different locations, due to different mounting lugs between a gen2 and gen3 block. The steel bracket also has slightly different AC compressor mounts.

[LordDurock]

Ghetto fix incoming.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/ohgodhowdidthisgethereiamnotgoodwit.jpg

:rock:

[Duke George V]

DUDE that is bad. The broken bolt can most definately be removed from the head without pulling the head. You will need a cobalt steel or tungsten carbide drill bit to drill it out and use a screw extractor.
The bolt hole is ovaled, and part of the casting has been broken off. If you look at the picture LordDurock quoted, you can see what I'm talking about. (I have a 3 megapixel version if you want.) So I either need to swap the rear head to the front, or do the planned modifications now, so as not to spend the money twice.

Also, after staring at the damned thing for a while, I realized I'd probably need a new thermostat housing and upper radiator hose for a W car in order to use the dual dogbone, in addition to drilling holes in the rad support or whatever that area is called.

Sorry pal, looks like you're stuck with using the aluminum bracket. There is a minor hight difference where it bolts to the head, but that's not really the issue. The big problem is that the lower bolt holes are in completely different locations, due to different mounting lugs between a gen2 and gen3 block. The steel bracket also has slightly different AC compressor mounts.
Dammit.

Well, that strap is gonna have to work for now. I have zero money to put toward a proper repair at this time. Next month a decent amount should be coming in, and I'll go all out on this. Thanks guys.

:rock:
Glad you approve. Above all else, I aim to entertain. :cheers:

[Duke George V]

Just got back from my mechanic. I showed him what happened, and he agreed that a new head should be put on. He gave me a phone number for the head shop he uses. I think it's the same one I talked to and got the $350 quote.

His estimate, assuming I will provide the parts (as I always do) was $800. I think that might be a bit high, but I don't really have much choice at this point—I can't keep driving around with a friggin' strap holding my shit together, ya know?

So, $800 + 350 + 200 for gaskets = almost $1400. Then I need to worry about getting the computer tuned. 60degreev6 has a chip, and I think they will program it based on what work you've done. That's another $90. Nearly fifteen hundred dollars to fix this shit, all because I had to go and use a solid dogbone.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/emotes/emot-ughh.gif

[Prospeeder]

why a new head? Repair it, remove the intake and heads, put new gaskets, fix the bolt, use the correct head bolts. Maybe 300 for gaskets and fluids.

[Duke George V]

If I'm going to go to all that trouble, I don't want to spend the money twice on gaskets and fluids. Easier and cheaper in the long run.

[CamoDeafie]

I have a local shop who'll sell me a 3300, a 3100, a 3.1, any of the A_car engines other than the 4.3 and 3.0 (not in stock) for $300 bux.....complete engines....l

[Duke George V]

I have a local shop who'll sell me a 3300, a 3100, a 3.1, any of the A_car engines other than the 4.3 and 3.0 (not in stock) for $300 bux.....complete engines....l
That's great, glad to hear it. I don't see how that affects me though.

Really, this is me punishing myself. I'm the one who put that solid torque strut in, so I have to fix the things that it broke. I can blame Rhett until the cows come home for installing the wrong head bolts*, but that doesn't change the fact that I exposed the weakest link in the motor mount chain.

That solid mount I made sure as hell didn't fail; in fact, it far exceeded my expectations. And honestly, I was trying to fix a problem that didn't really exist. I made that thing back when I had worn out lower mounts to keep it from moving back under load, causing the alternator fan to grind against the blower motor. I fixed it so well that it broke. I guess I'm just gonna have to buy a lot of regular dogbones and replace them as necessary, unless someone knows where I can get polyurethane bushings for one.



*And I will, because that was pretty boneheaded of him not to research the differences between the A and J platform mounting setups.

[Tonglebeak]

Vroom vroom yo rhett vtec just kicked in yo!

[86euro]

You don't have to use a stock dogbone. Word on the street is, you can use one from a 3100-equipped A-body, along with the matching bracket that bolts to the radiator support. It's a better design that doesn't wear out so fast.

[Duke George V]

You don't have to use a stock dogbone. Word on the street is, you can use one from a 3100-equipped A-body, along with the matching bracket that bolts to the radiator support. It's a better design that doesn't wear out so fast.
Sounds good. Hopefully I can find another 3100 car next time I go to the yard. Does the rad support bracket mount the same?

EDIT: Are you sure about that? Autozone lists the same part for both cars.
'89 Celebrity
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/autozonedogbone1.jpg

'94 Century
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/autozonedogbone2.jpg

[CamoDeafie]

well....If i get a job out in Minnesota or whatever, the car i have is gonna go up for sale....because i cant bloody afford to get either the complete engine or the head gaskets put in......and to my parents' twisted logic, it makes things easier to do if i just got rid of the car and get another one on way to Minnesota (no fricking flying for me, i rather DRIVE over to there lol)... anyhow, it could help, because then you could get a good 3.1 built up from the $300 junkyard motor and replace heads and get a different, more proper torque strut thing as well as the dogbone all at once?

[Duke George V]

it could help, because then you could get a good 3.1 built up from the $300 junkyard motor and replace heads and get a different, more proper torque strut thing as well as the dogbone all at once?
I wanted to do that, but it's not really a viable option at this point. I don't have the knowledge, tools or facilities to do any of this work myself. All I have is ambition. That can only go so far.

[CamoDeafie]

same here man lol

[86euro]

Hmm, I wonder if that listing might be wrong. I know I've seen a later style mount before, and I think it might have been RareCarVR that said it was a direct swap. He knows his stuff.

[Prospeeder]

dont just replace the head cause its off, MANY MANY people take heads of junk motors or junkyard cars all the time. Why not, i did headgaskets and reused my heads no problem. If u had no oil burning issues dont worry! Why waste money

[Duke George V]

dont just replace the head cause its off, MANY MANY people take heads of junk motors or junkyard cars all the time. Why not, i did headgaskets and reused my heads no problem. If u had no oil burning issues dont worry! Why waste money
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/ohgodhowdidthisgethereiamnotgood-1.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/count_george_vi/fffffff9.jpg

I've said this in the thread already...

The bolt hole is ovaled, and part of the casting has been broken off. If you look at the picture LordDurock quoted, you can see what I'm talking about. (I have a 3 megapixel version if you want.) So I either need to swap the rear head to the front, or do the planned modifications now, so as not to spend the money twice.
There isn't enough material left there to tap once the bolt is removed. 86euro recommended swapping the rear head to the front, since the heads are identical. That will cost exactly the same in labor as putting the ported heads on. It would be dumb not to put the ported heads on, along with the ported intake (has to come off anyway) and 1.6 rockers (also have to come out). Only added cost is the headwork to put in the 3500 valves.

[SilentWing]

Have you looked on ebay for a head? I might need to get a new one for my ciera if I ever want to put the metal gaskets in and IIRC I could get two new ones with valve jobs for $350 ish... if you just need the one you might be able to find one there.

[Duke George V]

I already have two heads. I bought them from someone on 60degreev6 earlier this year. I also bought valves from a much newer 3.5L V6 used in the Malibu and Impala. The intake is 0.040" larger, and both are lighter than stock gen 2. Installation of the valves in a gen 2 head requires a multi-angle valve job.

I think you guys are missing my point. I was planning on putting new heads and all the other stuff anyway. This incident just moved my timetable up a few months.

[Duke George V]

I already have two heads. I bought them from someone on 60degreev6 earlier this year. I also bought valves from a much newer 3.5L V6 used in the Malibu and Impala. The intake is 0.040" larger, and both are lighter than stock gen 2. Installation of the valves in a gen 2 head requires a multi-angle valve job.

I think you guys are missing my point. I was planning on putting new heads and all the other stuff anyway. This incident just moved my timetable up a few months.

[High Mileage]

Hmm, I wonder if that listing might be wrong. I know I've seen a later style mount before, and I think it might have been RareCarVR that said it was a direct swap. He knows his stuff.

I speak with him on a weekly basis and have gone on many a junkyard tour. He swears by the newer style torque strut which is used on '94-'96 A-bodies.

It is a direct swap. My '87 Eurosport with 2.5,'87 Cent with 2.5 and '90 Ciera #1 now have them. The '90 Ciera #2 that has 46,000mi will get one before that bogus dog bone wears out.

What I would like to do is install a second one. I see dimples in the radiator support where holes might be tapped. Looking thru this thread to see if it has been done...

[SCREECH]

Man! That is RAW!!! It's amazing how subtle differences as a result of platform differences can cause such problems! :uh: With regard to the torque strut, however, I did a search on RockAuto (rockauto.com) and found that up to '94 the "old" style torque strut is listed. The '95 and '96 A-bodies list the newer style mount, which is only listed as an "insert" for the "front" mount. The old mount, however, is listed for a LOT less than $36 - namely $4.02. :thumbsup:

[Duke George V]

Yeah, I just picked the ones that had the same number for illustrative purposes. Unless the damn thing's got poly bushings I ain't payin' no thirty-six dollars.

I posted this in my "all purpose" thread:

I spoke to my dad a few days ago. In his words, he's been wanting an excuse to get out of California for a while, and this is the perfect excuse. He's even willing to do some work on the other shit boxes my family has. My former Deville (was broken into, damaged column), my other brother's Focus, and my mom's Saturn SL2 (both need a radiator). It's on as soon as the expected money comes in.

With a little luck, it'll be done in time for the last night of Midnight Mayhem racing. The last two for this season are November 13th and December 4th. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/emotes/burnout.gif

And another dyno is definitely on the schedule. :thumbsup:

[Duke George V]

Revisiting this because I had a bit of a brainstorm a few minutes ago. Earlier in this thread I said that I didn't want to go with the dual strut setup, mainly because of the hood release cable being routed in an area where the driver's side bracket mounts. My idea was to cut off the angled portion of the bracket, then just use more bolts, or possibly weld it on to the car. I know, welding is semi-permanent, but that seems like the best way. I have access to a welding shop and could probably get it done for free.

[Zaloryan]

Revisiting this because I had a bit of a brainstorm a few minutes ago. Earlier in this thread I said that I didn't want to go with the dual strut setup, mainly because of the hood release cable being routed in an area where the driver's side bracket mounts. My idea was to cut off the angled portion of the bracket, then just use more bolts, or possibly weld it on to the car. I know, welding is semi-permanent, but that seems like the best way. I have access to a welding shop and could probably get it done for free.

I'm afraid you may end up breaking again what you will be fixing...

The torque strut mount for the 3100 engines has one rubber insert that goes on the engine-side mount. All that is available in the aftermarket is the rubber insert. Just go take a look at any 3100 in your local junkyard and you'll see what I mean. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture. In my opinion, this would be the way for you to go after you repair your cylinder head.

If it's any consolation, at least we all know what a good motor mount CAN do...

[Duke George V]

Autozone carries the whole 3100 strut. I bought one the other day, and got the radiator bracket from a yard a while back.

[86euro]

I wouldn't worry about the release cable, it moves out of the way. I also don't think welding it would be a good idea, as it will cover the radiator.