Laptop interface

[mickstan_VR]

Reading a different thread got me thinking about this(again).

Does anyone know how to hook up a laptop to the cars ecm? I'd like to be able to monitor the engine systems in real time. And be able to adjust stuff on the fly. I see them in newer "tuner" cars all of the time, but is it possible with an '88 Chevy? I've even seen them that run off of an older little Nintendo portable. (I'm sure my kids have got one of those laying around collecting dust somewhere,lol.) And Ive heard that an otherwise usless old 133Mhz laptop will do just fine. And I just so happen to have an old dell cpi366 and a mac powerbook g3 that need a purpose.
I downloaded a piece of software once that would show the guages and stuff on the screen, but you had to have the correct harness and interface and all kinds of stuff I didnt understand at the time to make it work. It was waaaaay over my head. Of course, now I cant find that file or remember its name.
Anybody got any ideas?

[a1veedubber]

I dont have any Ideas, but now I am interested too! I *think* this might work on OBD II cars though & ours are OBD I.

[dcjredline]

Tuner Cat is a program that the guys on the IROC Board use. There is a couple more programs too.

Try this site and fish around, I bet the computers in the IROCS are similar enough to most A's

http://www.moates.net/

[mickstan_VR]

Tuner Cat. I think that might have been it. I ran into a dead end with it. I couldn't find anything that said it would work with a celebrity. I'll look again...

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I ran into a dead end with it.


Cable w/ 12 pin OBD1 connector
ALDL Diagnostic Software (http://tunertools.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OBD2-aldlobd1)


Also read: The ALDL Cable (http://tunertools.com/vendorinfo/OBDdiagnostics_page2.asp)

I've got two 233 Mhz Pent Laptops, but TunerPro software says:

TunerPro System Requirements

Minimum: (http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/features.htm)

Intel Pentium® 100 mhz or equivelant for TunerPro Free
Intel Pentium 200 mhz or equivelant for TunerPro RT
16 MB RAM
Microsoft Windows® 98 (Win95 will not run TunerPro)
800 x 600 minimum supported resolution

Recommended:

Pentium 233 mhz or better
32 MB RAM or better
Win98 SE or better
1024 x 768 or better resolution capability

* for the ALDL mon/log feature in RT, a 300 mhz or better is recommended

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I *think* this might work on OBD II cars though & ours are OBD I.

Different Beasts: OBD-l & OBD-II

OBD-II is mainly all vehicles after 1996

OBD-I is pot luck...there were variations.


OBD-II, you can buy a cheap scanner for $50.00, that works on all newer vehicles.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Try this site and fish around

Dead End...I saw nothing there on OBD-1

OBD-1 goes from about 1982-1995 (but there are exceptions starting in 1993)...GM vehicles, of course.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I downloaded a piece of software once that would show the guages and stuff on the screen, but you had to have the correct harness and interface

ScreenShots (http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/screenshots.htm)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

PS: I just ordered one at $76.50 shipped...there may be others out there, but this outfit is one of the larger ones...OBD-1 is "history," so all you need is the data...not bells/whistles...

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Also, some of the software makers have their own internal forums...just have to check.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

You can make one of these: 160 Baud ALDL Hardware Interface (http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl160/aldl_hw.htm)...and it will work, but with limitations...I'm sure there are others out there....

[mickstan_VR]

Thanks for the info Ciera!
And I guess you're saying that OBD1 is a "stupid" computer, but an OBD2 is "smarter". All I can really do is track what HAS happened, not CHANGE anything? Is a programmable chip possible?

[dcjredline]

Dead End...I saw nothing there on OBD-1

OBD-1 goes from about 1982-1995 (but there are exceptions starting in 1993)...GM vehicles, of course.


WHAT!? SO are you saying there is nothing there for OBD-I or nothing there for the A-Body? Cause they have TONS of things for The 85-92 Camaro and Firebirds. THAT IS OBDI

[MR2Di4]

Sounds to me like you just need to get a OBDI to serial or USB cable and download some software and definitions that support our rigs, or at least their engines. I did a little digging through the intarweb and came up with some links that may help us out.

Here is a link for a 1990 Oldsmobile Toronado on the Tuner Tools forum. (http://tunertools.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299) (Heh, looks like ours!)
Here is a vehicle list for one program. (http://store.efilive.com/overview_vehicleDef.htm) I would venture a guess and say that most of our engines are listed there.
Here's another that has lots of A-bodies mentioned. (http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/do_tc.html)
Another thread I found over at our w-body cousin's site (http://www.wbodysource.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=3734&POSTNUKESID=bbdf495f429a254652221d46b2954e22) on ALDL monitoring for their rigs.
This cross-reference page might be helpful for determining exactly what PCM's our cars and others use (http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/) to determine what vehicle definitions to download for the various software out there.

[mickstan_VR]

Hmmm...Looks like all I need is the cable and software. Pre-made cables are on ebay for about 70 bucks http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=aldl+cable&category0= . I need to look into the software end of it. But it looks like I can't make any changes to the shift points and such without a chip programmer. All I can do is look at the info in real-time, but thats still pretty cool. And it would be a big help if something is throwing a code or the car starts mis-behaving.
Don, this might be something for you and the AWD STE problems you are having.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Looks like all I need is the cable and software.


And...LapTop or DeskTop computer, for either OBD-I or OBD-II hookups.



But it looks like I can't make any changes to the shift points and such without a chip programmer.

With a manual gear box...you can:eek:

For OBD-I vehicles with non-electronic transmissions, nothing can changed shift points except internal changes in transmission.

For OBD-II vehicles with electronic transmissions, I'll assume you can do this, if your software program allows it.

OBD-II vehicles - You can do all sorts of modifications....

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

And I guess you're saying that OBD1 is a "stupid" computer, but an OBD2 is "smarter".

OBD-I vehicles - You just read data...or get a chip programmed to do something else.

OBD-II vehicles - You can read data, and YOU YOURSELF may be able to change the program itself.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

This cross-reference page might be helpful for determining exactly what PCM's our cars and others use (http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/) to determine what vehicle definitions to download for the various software out there.

The URL listed above is transformed to this URL (http://winaldl.joby.se/aldldata.htm)...but if you further explore this person's site, you will find a page on how to make a cable here (http://winaldl.joby.se/aldlcable.htm)...and it further explains how to modify it for carb/fuel applications.

Hence, if you can find a mating plug (ANYBODY FOUND ONE?), you can make one for peanuts....and find free software to use.

Now, who is going to make an ALDL cable....it's much cheaper....

[mickstan_VR]

Instead of using a plug on the aldl end, I was just going to hard wire it from the back of the factory plug. USB would be preferable on the PC end.

[mickstan_VR]

Just checked the car....my aldl plug has pins in the A, B, F, and M positions. So I have the 8192 baud. But would I need the cig lighter power adapter if I use the USB plug?

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Just checked the car....my aldl plug has....But would I need the cig lighter power adapter if I use the USB plug?


With a store bought USB-ALDL cable, I would assume they are using your computer's USB voltage to drive transistor circuit within cable setup. I would make sure there are no "exceptions" to its usage...ask before you leap...

If you look at the schematic, like HERE (http://winaldl.joby.se/interface2.gif), an external voltage is used. As he notes:


The ECM produces the data signal at either a 12 Volt or 5 volt level (http://winaldl.joby.se/aldlcable.htm) that must be inverted and converted to RS232. One simple scheme is to feed the ALDL data into a single transistor level converter that inverts the data to produce a pseudo RS232 level (varies between 12 Volts and 0).

Hence, if you are designing a cable, you make it generic to receive both voltages, but you need to have a voltage to drive the required transistor circuit.


Topic OverView:

On-Board Diagnostics
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-Board_Diagnostics)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I was just going to hard wire it from the back of the factory plug. USB would be preferable on the PC end.

Hold on....you aren't thinking about getting a plain BestBuy USB cable and splicing it up, were you?

It ain't going to work...if so...electronics are needed...RS232 is a different animal than USB.

[LordDurock]

i have a 91 skylarks (2.5lt) computer should some one need it to exspement i sell it for cheap.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

i have a 91 skylarks (2.5lt) computer...

It may only be relevant to that era of vehicles only.

I check with a GM counter-person, of many years, and he indicated there have been many changes made over the years. One would have to check part numbers and compare...the Iron Duke motor was revised several times, and one would have to see if any of the other emission parts or cable-wiring-setup were changed also.

Last time I checked, the computer could be bought around $100.00 or less at auto stores.

There has been more than one story out there were someone attempted to switch "different motors," and found out it don't run so hot. Cams are not the same, etc., when they revise a motor; consequently, the fuel/air mapping will not be the same through the RPM curve, there's the rub.

But, for the motor that goes with this computer, its a must to use this computer box; its a mate.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Footnote - Reference article for OBD-II Scanners: OBD II Generic Scan Tools (http://www.aeswave.com/Articles/ProductArticles/ScanToolAssesMOTOR072005_04.pdf)


This 2005 article is somewhat dated...nowdays, you can buy a pocket scanner for around $50.00.

But, in order to understand this scanned info, one needs to understand how an engine works, and expected parameters for a given readout.

On my 88 Beretta, for instance, I have several vaccum leaks, and until I fix them, the code readings I got the other day are more/less bogus (false). Just because the scanner shows this/that...if there is an underlying mechanical problem, it has to be fixed first.

At another forum, a person had a high map readings at idle, so he did the following:

looked at all the vacuum lines - no cracks
ohm'd the injectors, all were between 12-12.2
cleaned the plenum and installed new gasket
cleaned the TB and installed new gasket
completely disassembled EGR/cleaned new gasket
changed the PCV valve
replaced the O2 sensor (old one broke in 3 pieces)
tried a different IAC (IAC counts seem lower now)
tried the ECM from my Z24
tried the ECM and memcal from Z24
replaced the map connector
tried a different vacuum source for the MAP
plugged the EVAP and cruise, hvac, vacuum ball lines
tried different MAP of course
and ya I disconnected the battery...

and the rest of this story was his Lower Intake Manifold gasket was leaking, which could have been ruled out before all of this "pain-suffering" was experienced.

[dcjredline]

Moates.net has programmable memcals, you select things you want and burn your own custom chip. They even have one that has a little switch with it that can choose between 16 different programs.

I had one in my Formula when I bought it didnt know what the differences were so I took it out of the car. I dont think I still have the little box but I KNOW it exists.

I would bet anything the SAME stuff can be used to burn memcals for the A's

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I would bet anything the SAME stuff can be used to burn memcals for the A's

This industry is not "controlled," so there will be snake oil sales-folks out there.

Yes, chips can be burned....but do those who deviate from OEM code actually know "it all." I've seen the Hot Rod chips...but, for OBD-I I am speaking in terms of knowing the full code...not eliminating RPM limit...

On internet, there is one website, Welcome to the EFI-332, DIY-EFI, and gmecm WWW pages (http://www.diy-efi.org/), where a group of folks have examined the coding.

On OBD-II stuff, I would say they have a decent handle on modifying this stuff...but I'm not sure about OBD-I stuff. There are a number of software programs for doing this on GM stuff, I know for sure.

By I'm not sure about OBD-I stuff, I'm suggesting a person might be wasting their money...Snake Oil.

I know a place to get a chip that gives some 5 HP plus boost, but from listening to folks who bought it, they couldn't feel it. A 5 HP boost is peanuts...not worth it.

Myself, its a waste of money...for high performance chips....but if my chip bit the dust, I would buy the $130.00 for a burned OEM replacement, if needed...a rip off, imho.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

WHAT!? SO are you saying there is nothing there for OBD-I or nothing there for the A-Body? Cause they have TONS of things for The 85-92 Camaro and Firebirds. THAT IS OBDI

After looking it over, there is stuff there...but you will get an "education" and encounter a loss of revenue when its all over.

Imho, a great waste of time/money...

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I would bet anything the SAME stuff can be used to burn memcals for the A's

Here on this web page of theirs (http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=72), they state this:

This table is abbreviated. If you don't see your application here, please email us.

Again...a waste of revenue, for most all...

[dcjredline]

And you havent been to any of the places that provide the burning software if you think the only thing that can be changed on an OBD-1 is eliminating RPM limit? :rolleyes:

There are fuel curves, timing, WOT settings, EGR delete, V.A.T.S delete. They have TONS of options. People use these to adapt to things like S/C, Bigger Fuel Injectors, Headers, Exhaust, etc, etc...

You are talking from the wrong side of your body cause you are guessing I have experiance and know others who do also. Nice try though.

IF I need to I will do some searching for you and post links.


JUST TO CLARIFY AND REITERIATE
The stuff I am talking about being able to do IS NOT for A-bodies but for F-bodies with OBD-1 I am just saying it MAY translate easily enough to the A-body. The language between the ECM's should be the same being they are of the same vintage.

[dcjredline]

Did a 5second search for you whom know it all. Directly from http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/do_tc.html


The Tuner program is a general purpose ECM calibration editor that allows you to make a wide variety of calibration changes to your vehicle's ECM/PCM from an easy to use Windows environment. The program locates and displays the calibration parameters in standard engineering units so there's no need to work with or even understand hex and binary numbers.

With the addition of the appropriate ECM Definition File, the C.A.T.S. Tuner program supports a wide range of vehicles .

Each ECM Definition file is designed to give you access to the calibration parameters required to support major engine modifications, such as Cams, larger displacement (strokers), Injector size changes, etc.

Click on this link to view the Tuner User's Reference Manual for a detailed descitpion of how to use all the features of this powerful program.

The example shown here is a type $42 ECM (1227747) used in standard duty 87- 91 C/K Pickup Trucks and Vans. The ECM Definition Files for the next generation of PCM's are considerably larger and include transmission control functions.


And some of the MANY cars this program supports. ALL OF WHICH ARE OBD-I


85 Y CAR 5.7L TPI (L98)
85 F CAR 5.0L TPI (LB9)
85 Impala, Caprice, El Camino 4.3L (LB4)
86 Y & F CAR 5.0L / 5.7L TPI
87 - 88 Y & F CAR 5.0L / 5.7L TPI
86 - 89 F CAR LB6/LB8 V6
87 Caprice/MonteCarlo 4.3L LB4
88 F CAR 5.0L LO3 TBI
89 - 92 F & B Cars, LO3 & LO5 Eng.
89 Y & F CAR 5.0L & 5.7L

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

HP Tuners is what us TGP owners use. Some also use MOATES. Just remember one thing. Befor you modify anything in your ECM/EEPROM, you need to make a copy of the BIN file from the EEPROM, and save it in a locked file on a floppy disk or USB drive. You dont want your computer to try to convert this file, and you want to have a file that you know works. That way if you mess up, its easy to go back and start over. Nothing worse then searching thru a junkyard a EEPROM that works with your car...

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Now I know this is for the Turbo Grand Prix, but it will help some get an idea of what we are talking about, and the ones that know whats going on, it might give them a lead in the right direction. I think there is even a hack in there somewhere to take HPTuner to HPTuner RT. But I could be wrong.

[dcjredline]

Where have you been this whole time? Ive been fighing this alone. Thanks for your input.

This also proves there is at least some stuff for the 3.1 engine.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Did a 5 second search for you whom know it all.

Years ago, I knew (deceased) a person who threw a large wad of greenbacks into his Sprint Cars...back when most all built them themselves...1960s-1970s...and "supporters" did not exist then.

He indicated to me, and others, it was a waste of money...in the end.

No matter how you slice it, you can only gain so much horsepower thru this "twitching."

And once you start ramping up your horsepower, the next thing to go is your transmission...hey a dollar here, dollar there, and pretty soon, you just pitched about $2,000.00 into that bucket...is my point...is it worth it...I don't think so...is my point.

Yes, I know the "rest of this story".....$$$$$$$$$$$ becomes HISTORY....kept it stock.

If you are into the business, that's a different matter....but I rather suspect most people on this forum are not "hot rodders."

PS: I use to drive a 62 vette...with camel hump heads, headers, high lift cam, dual point, H-Bias tires, etc....been there, done that...years ago...

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

This also proves there is at least some stuff for the 3.1 engine.

Well hell, want to drop a load of cash, go here: 60V6 Store (http://www.60degreev6.com/store/)

And, there are other places...when I see this,

"Congratulations to Colin Wahl, who dynoed 222 whp with his 3400 swapped malibu using our street/strip ported heads and 1280 grind."

My eyes just roll...you can buy new OEM Buick with 275 or so hp

[mickstan_VR]

wow....
well....
ummm...
no need to start a fire fight here!
This has generated quite a bit of info to keep me busy for a while. I really have no interest in trying to get a bunch of un-tapped power out of this project. I just like to tinker. It would be cool(to me) to be able to tweak some stuff once in while, just like my '68 GTO or my 355 Camaro. I used to love to do that, but those cars are long gone and I've got a small v-6 now. Soooo, ya' run what cha, brung.
I'm not looking to drop a bunch of money in this either, but it might give me some good experience for a future project.

gotta go eat dinner, be back in awhile!

[86euro]

Well hell, want to drop a load of cash, go here: 60V6 Store (http://www.60degreev6.com/store/)

And, there are other places...when I see this,

"Congratulations to Colin Wahl, who dynoed 222 whp with his 3400 swapped malibu using our street/strip ported heads and 1280 grind."

My eyes just roll...you can buy new OEM Buick with 275 or so hp


No need to force your own beliefs on everyone else.

And that's 222 hp AT THE WHEELS, not the flywheel. Pretty good for a mild build from a relatively small motor WITH NO BOOST. I'm sure it was cheaper that that buick you speak of.

...and stock is boring.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

No need to force your own beliefs on everyone else.


Conversely, those who peddle the gee-whiz effect are guilty also.

Unless one has a business need, it tends to be a waste of $$$...in hindsight.

One might be better off installing a larger motor (3.8) than pumping up a smaller one...

But again, if you ain't got the tranny to handle the torque....there's the rub...and last I knew, most of these older OEM FWD automatic trannies weren't built "for the speed." I know some of the newer electronic trannies can handle higher torque levels, but I'm not aware of any of these older hydraulic-driven trannies holding up under extreme stress, including the TC.

[dcjredline]

Point is you were saying the OBD-I isnt capable and it IS. I dont know where you get all this other mess from about people shouldnt "waste" their money on something. If you want to buy the store brand facial wipes and others want to buy Puffs WHY WOULD YOU CARE?

Your off track cause your wrong about the OBD-I thing.

Enuff of that. Mick there is plenty of options out there just had to ask. It would be cool if you did a little programming and came up with something that worked well. I would still like to get into this for my Formula and never really thought much about doing anything to the STE's but I guess with the right amount of time and money I COULD!!!

Good luck!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Point is you were saying the OBD-I isnt capable and it IS.


Original Topic - Post One - mickstan_VR stated:


"...And be able to adjust stuff on the fly..."

Now, find me where you can adjust OBD-1 stuff on the fly...I've only seen chips programmed.

[dcjredline]

Original Topic - Post One - mickstan_VR stated:


"...And be able to adjust stuff on the fly..."

Now, find me where you can adjust OBD-1 stuff on the fly...I've only seen chips programmed.

And who was talking about that? NOT me. I was simply giving him avenues to go and find things he can use to tweak his parameters.

To which you said

OBD-I vehicles - You just read data...or get a chip programmed to do something else.

OBD-II vehicles - You can read data, and YOU YOURSELF may be able to change the program itself.

AND

but, for OBD-I I am speaking in terms of knowing the full code...not eliminating RPM limit...

Both of which ARENT TRUE! You are wrong and dont know what your talking about with OBD-I prom burning.

Do you just want to be negative and condescending? No one likes it. If you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add then your welcome to.


I dont think even with OBD-II you can change things on the fly (Without a programmer ($450) made specifically to do so.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Does anyone know how to hook up a laptop to the cars ecm?


Footnotes -

1. If the software company does not include your ECM/Motor type...plain out of luck. On that Cable/CD I got, most all is for OBD-2, with some OBD-1...for instance, look at this table here (http://winaldl.joby.se/aldldata.htm).

2. Btw, to have "on the fly" adjustments, this applies to Gen III stuff. Here's an overview that might be of interest: Moates Roadrunner LS1 Tuner - In a Flash (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0611gm_moates_roadrunner/index.html) I understood your comment in post one, but apparently, Mr. Pud-knocker got off track, and then went on to beating his chest:rolleyes:.

[dcjredline]

Footnotes -

1. If the software company does not include your ECM/Motor type...plain out of luck. On that Cable/CD I got, most all is for OBD-2, with some OBD-1...for instance, look at this table here (http://winaldl.joby.se/aldldata.htm).

2. Btw, to have "on the fly" adjustments, this applies to Gen III stuff. Here's an overview that might be of interest: Moates Roadrunner LS1 Tuner - In a Flash (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0611gm_moates_roadrunner/index.html) I understood your comment in post one, but apparently, Mr. Pud-knocker got off track, and then went on to beating his chest:rolleyes:.

NAME Calling is VERY classy and another way to hide the fact that one was wrong by pointing out something OFF TOPIC AGAIN. I dont think its tollerated here if I remember right. I will see what Cutlass thinks of it either way.

You got off track in this whole thread. Mickstan asked a question and I was giving him options. Maybe he is smart enough to tap into the language himself and figure out the code to make changes to the programming for the A's Oh yeah its just a waste of money and he should ask YOU before doing anything to his car to make sure he isnt wasting what HE earned.

[mickstan_VR]

Well, I definately have some more research to do! And some companies to contact. They should be able to tell me directly if thiers will do the job. And its another case of "How fast do ya' wanna go?, How much money ya' got?!" Well, I ain't got a lotta money! But 75 bucks or so for a cable and some free software would be a good start. It would be cool to adjust on the fly, or even if I had to just shut the car off to change the settings. But programming is beyond me for now. I'd probably get myself into trouble, as usual. Just being able to monitor performance and watch the systems in action would be great.
So the real question is WHICH cable and WHICH software to get? I don't want to use an inverter. Needs to be self-powered thru the laptop, or I guess thru the cig lighter would be OK.

And lets not all get in a huff about this!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

another way to hide the fact that one was wrong


Post One - "And be able to adjust stuff on the fly. "

Post Seven (My response to you) -

Originally Posted by dcjredline
Try this site and fish around


Dead End...I saw nothing there on OBD-1

Case Closed - His original focus was about adusting "stuff on the fly." Your suggestion to poster one was a dead end...cause it don't exist, "on the fly." And your fixation was on a topic that was not the thread's focus...my post seven shows there your mind was not right.



PS: Here's one opinion of OBD-1: "ODB1 sucks big donkey balls. I had to drive 3 hours to Albany to find a shop who had PCMforless (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5220756&postcount=14)."

Also, OBD-1 is supported for reprograming, but mainly for those engines that are in the demand the most, like SBCs, and a few others.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

"How fast do ya' wanna go?, How much money ya' got?!"


In order to see a real improvement, the engine has to be rebuilt...just throwing a new chip at it may improve it several plus horsepower, but I don't think its worth it.

I would get another project, like building a Trike:

See this site: Reverse Trike Club (http://reversetrike.com/home.html)

Scroll down to:

Complete Kits - (sorted by price)
Plans Built Trikes - (sorted alphabetically)

Also, go into: Trike Video Collection

At least when you get done, you got something to sell, if you choose.

Also see: The XR-3 Hybrid (http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm)

Now, I'd like to drive one of these: Renault 20Cup Concept

http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/27/peugeot_20cup_3.jpg

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Mods, can we get some attention in here. This isnt the point of the topic, or the conversation. And this is going to turn into a topic like we had at the old forum, and I am sure everyone here knows what I am talking about...

85_Ciera_Rebuild, No offense man, but I see one person has asked you to leave this topic alone, and now I am asking. IMHO you dont know what you are talking about. Thru a nice chip tune (on OBD1), and some new injectors, I gathered a 198HP/189TQ gain. I am now working on another chip tune with will bump it up to probly a 250HP/TQ gain. And Mickstan has riden in my car to know that I am not BS'in.

So please man, for the sake of the forum, and its members, let it go, please..

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

you dont know what you are talking about.


Nice post...you come in to suggest to get off of this "rag," and then throw a punch.

Please, reread post one...the person was asking about "on the fly" adjustments; and if you reread every post of mine, you will see I am aware there are means to twitch.

My suggestion, get an English teacher...this topic went off topic...reread post one..."on the fly" adjustments was the topic...there are no OBD-1 setups to do on the fly adjustment.

And when someone suggests look here...it does not exist.

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Well guys, I tried to be nice, but the guy just persists on being an ass. To the members that are tired of him, click on his name on the left hand side of your screen, veiw profile, middle right hand side of the screen will be a "Add 85_Ciera_Rebuild to Your Ignore List (http://www.a-body.net/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=19) " and your done. Least then this topic can continue in the right direction until a mod comes in. I had to report him.

[dcjredline]

I already reported it. He keeps "thinking" the only thing Jeff was talking about is on the fly, that was only ONE of the things he was inquiring about. I tried to reason also and it wasnt getting through so I dicided to give up (MAY have been later than I should have SORRY about that)

Point remains that Jeff got what he was looking for and HE seems to be happy with the answers he got and thats what is important.

Anything else Jeff maybe PM myself or Brian and we can help more.


Don

PS: Much nicer viewing the posts as you suggest Brian

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I tried to be nice



Reread post one...my initial response to that poster was based upon post one's content.

Go ahead...ignore my posts...my position is supported....reread post one....

[mickstan_VR]

I would get another project, like building a Trike:

I already have a project. Its called a Eurosport VR. But the next one is called an '88 Corvette :)

And I will vouch for Brian on this, his car IS a rocket, for a V6 anyway. That GP will scream. :eek:

I'm not in this to make money on the deal, I'm in it for the experience and the fun. If I was in it for the money, I sure wouldn't waste my time with a a-body. An original A-body such as a GTO or Chevelle, yes, but not one of our a-bodies. I got a lot of money tied up in my VR already, and it ain't worth sh!t. But I knew that getting into it.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I'm in it for the experience and the fun

If you examine the common vehicles of 50s/60s/70s with V8 motors, most were slow accelerators. Yes, there were a few production line "muscle cars," but then, most hot rodders had to increase the compression/etc to decrease the lbs/hp ratio. Today, many of the V6s/V8s production line vehicles produced in mid 80s and onward would be classified as semi-hot-rodder to hot-rodder vehicles when compared to vehicles in 50s/60s/70s.

Each to their own, but for those who want the speed, its generally better to go with a larger block motor than pour tons of $$$ into smaller pony for similar HP rating. But, having a lighter rig is a better solution for lbs/hp ratio.


Btw, I came across an interesting tidbit:

Coming soon...Tunerpro
(http://www.tunerpro.net/whitepapers.htm)
Creating an ALDL datastream definition from a .DS file

Notes on the ADX format

Notes on the XDF format

Tips and tricks for efficient tuning with TunerPro RT
=============================

The problem with many of these scanning programs is they are limited to specific motors. But I do know where there are quite a few "DS" files for GM stuff that may work for these other motors.

That's the problem with OBD-1 scanner software, unless you have a common vehicle that people tinker with, there may be no definitions to make the software program go.

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Not sure what happened with my post above...


Now I know this is for the Turbo Grand Prix, but it will help some get an idea of what we are talking about, and the ones that know whats going on, it might give them a lead in the right direction. I think there is even a hack in there somewhere to take HPTuner to HPTuner RT. But I could be wrong.

I posted a link to another website that has some vast info on chip tuning, that is being done on the 3.1 TGP..

http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?board=19.0

You might have to be a member to view it thou. So have at it..

And if TunerProRT can scan/program for a 3.1 turbo, than it by all means can do it for a 2.8 NA or a 3.1 NA, since its still basicly the some motor and code. Just the TGP has added fuel curves, timing curves, etc.

(sorry about the repost kinda, for some reason it wont let me edit the post..)
EDIT: I checked the website, you dont need to be a member to veiw the information.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

And if TunerProRT can scan/program for a 3.1 turbo, than it by all means can do it for a 2.8 NA or a 3.1 NA, since its still basicly the some motor and code.


From my learnings, which includes looking at various FAQs/etc for a number of software programs, most all out there today are for OBD-II, and what freebie OBD-1 programs exist, tend to focus on specific engines.

Here is a high dollar software maker, and what they support for OBD-II, as an example:

What vehicles are supported by EFILive? (http://www.efilive.com/supvehicle.aspx)

For OBD-I, this same company sells for $179.00 a "Scan Tool software (http://www.efilive.com/pc-40-15-efilive-v4-obdi-scan-tool-license.aspx)" that "is fully configurable to support 99% of GM’s OBDI/ALDL based vehicles, at both 8192 baud and 160 baud."

Hence, on the freebie side for GM vehicles, its potluck for freebie OBD-1 scanning software, but for $179.00, it is claimed you get 99% coverage. But, there are a number of DS files, which if TurnerPro delivers on converting them, could make their program accommodate a larger selection of GM vehicles.

I think the ALDL cable I bought is DOA, or my laptop has a Com1 problem. Moates has a "ALDL Echo Test Program (http://www.moates.net/index.php?cPath=33)," which tests your ALDL cable, and so far this ALDL Cable it has shot craps

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

And if TunerProRT can scan/program for a 3.1 turbo, than it by all means can do it for a 2.8 NA or a 3.1 NA


These scanning software programs must account for type of ECM and its content within it:

If you look at this "ECM/MemCal Part Numbers and Cross Reference (http://www.iroczone.com/techartpromid.htm)" page, each ECM Part Number and Prom Codes would imply parameter changes.

[Cutlass]

There's a lot of good information in this thread. Let's just avoid insulting each other.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

For OBD-1, EFILive supports these vehicles. (http://store.efilive.com/overview_vehicleDef.htm) But some $170.00 or so...for their program.

[turbokinetic]

You can adjust pre-OBDII ECM's on-the-fly. It just takes more hardware. Done it with good success. There is an interface device that plugs in where the EPROM would normally go. Changes are instant and can be done with engine running.
See http://www.tunercat.com and look at their RT Tuner. It is a competitor to Tuner Pro RT.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~davida1/ecmtune.htm shows my car hooked up to be adjusted in real-time.
This hardware is totally independant of the ALDL interface and scan-tool programs. It can ONLY adjust internal ECM settings, it can NOT scan data or read trouble codes. You have to use both if you want to adjust and then see what the ECM data is returning for your knock counts and fuel trim.
Forgive me if this is off topic, I'm not sure exactly what was originally asked but this seems like pertainent info.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

You can adjust pre-OBDII ECM's on-the-fly


Last time I looked at TurnerCat, they were limited on vehicles that changes could be made...did I read something wrong here?

I see in your situation, your were twitching vehicles that maybe had mechanical changes....but would you mess with a stock engine....best I hear is maybe a 5 HP gain, which is peanuts in my book, and not worth it.

[dcjredline]

Dont bother turbokinetic. I dont think you were here prior and dont know this will be a loosing battle. You, Jeff and I all know its possible now so dont try to get through. I had the moates 16 way adjustable system in my Formula but I dont know what the heck I am talking about either.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Forgive me if this is off topic, I'm not sure exactly what was originally asked but this seems like pertainent info.

Your comments are welcomed...but when I was reading this article,
Moates Roadrunner LS1 Tuner - In a Flash (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0611gm_moates_roadrunner/index.html), they were addressing the Gen III custom tuning market, which I have associated with OBD-II stuff mainly.

In any event, being practical, for the investment required...it ain't worth it, unless you are into the business since one is looking at some $1,000.00 or so, to get into the game....hence, for a hobbist, it is a dream...just like buying a SnapOn Scanner, which runs some $3,000.00 these days, I understand.

Imho, much ado, about nothing...unless you are into the business...as I stated before.

[turbokinetic]

OK now I see; I read this whole thread and now I see what has happened. The first time I only saw the first page, new to this forum and didn't see the "page 1 of 5" at the bottom.
Sorry for stirring this up again.
Yes the hardware is expensive. I have $500 in my setup, BUT myself and family have 5 cars/ engines that it will work with. Divide that by 5 re-tuned vehicles and it's not too bad. I'm not in the car repair business.
Also, with TunerCat, their car listing is not all-inclusive. If you look at your ECM and get the "Service number" I bet it is listed by "Service number" in TunerCat's supported ECM listing.
Wether it is worth it or not is completely your own decision, I wouldn't think any more or less of a person either way.
You're right, for a "stock" engine it is hard to improve on the factory's calibration. If the engine is completely a custom build or a mix-match of different parts, there may be no other way to make it run right, aside from an aftermarket ECM. (read: unreliable and expensive).
Unless you've made changes that alter the engine's breathing ability or detonation sensativity, you probably don't need this.
I hope you find a solution that satisfies you!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Also, with TunerCat, their car listing is not all-inclusive.


There's a rub when dealing with "orphan" motors/ECMs...I have been aware of Gen II custom tuning market, whereby you do the "guess and test" mode...but this Gen III stuff is quite new, and even when it first came out, there weren't that many options...and what I heard about it was very focused back then....it appears now, this market has expanded, and the options have increased...but for home hobbyist, I think its a great waste of time and money...especially if you ain't got the motor for grabbing high horsepower.


You're right, for a "stock" engine it is hard to improve on the factory's calibration. If the engine is completely a custom build or a mix-match of different parts, there may be no other way to make it run right, aside from an aftermarket ECM.

I agree completely on your thought about Stock Engines....from what I hear, at most, one MIGHT gain 5 HP on these smaller horsepower motors, which is peanuts....and then considering that GM used conservative values to prevent motor damage, you risk some pre-denotation if the advance goes too far and your fuel does not have the right octane or enough of it is delivered.

For after market...if I was building an engine, I would not create my own (as a hobbyist), but would use a proven design....over the years, I've heard too many stories of "mis-fits."

As a tidbit, February 2008 issue of Diesel World Magazine (http://www.dieselworldmag.com/) has an article called Easy Horsepower: Modules vs Tuners vs Programmers: Which One is Best?

I appreciate your input....I would like to ask a question to two about your Boat Engine conversion...but not sure if a new thread should be started.

[turbokinetic]

I'd be glad to answer about boat. Probably would be better to e-mail me directly or start a new topic though.

[turbokinetic]

I hear you about the "mis-fits!"
I've talked to 2 local Import boys who destroyed heavily modified engines and blamed it on an "ECU failure." One had a $1000 programmable ECU he got from a hop-up shop, and the second guy had built a home-brew ECU with plans from the Internet.
I think the root cause was too much boost and too much advance in both cases. More a calibration error than an "ECU failure." But blaming the ECU shifted the blame away from their own lack of tuning skills.
I would prefer the tried and true Delco ECM with its 20 years of GM research and development!

[mickstan_VR]

OK, I've re-read the entire thread, and I'm diggin' this thing up. I got a week or so of free time right now so I'm tinkerin'.
David and Brian, I checked out this cable: http://tunertools.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OBD2%2Daldlobd1u . It will work with my car. Just to refresh, '88 eurosport VR, 2.8mpfi,4-speed auto. I also checked out tunercats. I think this is the correct software: http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/do_tc.html . Do I also need a romulator? I'm a bit confused on that. The way I read it, changes can be made "on the fly", even with the obd 1. And this is the definition file I need: $55. Its on this page: http://www.tunercat.com/tnr_desc/do_tc.html .
Ciera, I totally understand the don't fix it if it aint broke mentality. Thats fine. But I like to tinker. Thats how I learn. And its fun. As long as it stays cheap!
Soooooo, is this the stuff I need to get me into trouble, errrrr what? What else do I need?
David, I also agree with leaving well enough alone. The engineers did things for a reason. If I just want to monitor the systems, and maybe diagnose problems, what software would you recommend?
I also have a slight problem with forking over 120 bucks for the software and definition. Too much $$$ to not get it to work. I need the serial code or crack info for the software. Or a keygen for v1.27. Ive looked everywhere, and infected my machine several times in the process, lol, to no avail. I have the serial to version 1.12, but I can't find the software of the same version number. of course.


OK guys, lets keep it friendly this go-'round.

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

That looks about right. I have checked thru my, ahem "sources", about a copy of tunercat or tunerpro. But to no avail. I can find stuff for obd2. But not OBD1.

[dagr8tim]

Can anyone summerize this thread in a paragraph and do it in a civil manner? My ADD kicked in long about page 3.

Making converter cables is no major issue, the question is has anyone found any software? I just got my hands on an old dell laptop that would be awesome for tinkering with the ECU in my Ciera.

[mickstan_VR]

Well tim, yer jumping in at just about the right time. We've found cables and schematics for them, and determined that ,yes, obd1 systems can also be tinkered with on the fly, just not to the extent an obd2 system could be, with the right software. And I've found the defination file for our cars. Now its which software or combination of them we need. And how to do it the cheapest way.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Can anyone summarize this thread in a paragraph and do it in a civil manner?

Time consuming project, with little to no benefit for most...

[dagr8tim]

Well tim, yer jumping in at just about the right time. We've found cables and schematics for them, and determined that ,yes, obd1 systems can also be tinkered with on the fly, just not to the extent an obd2 system could be, with the right software. And I've found the defination file for our cars. Now its which software or combination of them we need. And how to do it the cheapest way.

Cool, my objective at this point is to be able to real time monitor and possibly suck down information for further extensive review.

If it comes to tinkering, I will most likely go grab an extra ECU from the jy to do the actual tinkering with (incase I blow it up).

[mickstan_VR]

I've got a spare ecu also, just in case!

[turbokinetic]

Summarizing each question in as few words as possible...

To MONITOR the ECM; such as reading trouble codes, viewing sensor readings, and watching the operation of the system you need a scan tool program. It CAN NOT alter the settings or tune on the ECM.

Win ALDL, EASE diagnostics, and Turbo Link are axamples of "Scan Tool" programs. They require a cable that connects the computer (from the DB9 port) to the car (from the ALDL port). The cables are proprietary to the program. There are "definition files" that match the program to the car being tested and they usually come with the program.

This is the everyday normal "computer" program that most car repair shops have that they use to diagnose your car.

-----------------------

Now to REPROGRAM the ECM, adjusting the fuel, spark, and any other programmable setting in the ECM you need a TUNER program. CATS tuner or Tuner Pro are examples.

These programs require more hardware to use. You need a chip eraser, chip reader / programmer, and emulator.

The chip reader / programmer allows you to save your newly adjusted ECM settings into a chip so you can use it in an ECM.

The emulator connects from the computer (from the DB9 port) to the ECM (directly into the EPROM socket - it temporarily takes the place of the EPROM chip). It is the communication adapter that is communicating between the Tuner program and the ECM. This piece of hardware allows you to change settings on-the-fly.

This is an emulator connected to an ECM. The small black thing to the bottom left of the ECM is the chip that contained the original settings.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~davida1/romulator_1.jpg


-------------------

You CAN NOT (repeat) CAN NOT reporgram a "chip" type (OBD 1 - before 1996) ECM by using the ALDL. The chip requires HARD UV light to be erased, and over 21 volts to program. The ECM does not contain the circuitry to re-program its own chip, and certainly has no way to erase a chip! Once you use the emulator to run the car and develop the calibration, then you use the chip programmer to make a "hard copy" of your new calibration.

Here is tuning procedure:

1-remove chip from ECM.
2-copy original calibration from chip into emulator
3-plug emulator into ECM in place of chip.
4-run car on emulator while re-tuning the ECM.
5-erase chip and copy modified calibration from emulator back into the chip
6-re-install chip with new calibration.

--------------------------------

You only need to re-tune if you make major changes to the engine, transplant the engine and ECM into another car, or your system has known issues that can only be fixed by tuning. If you have a "factory" engine, the "factory" tune is pretty near perfect.

I have 5 engines that all use same tuning hardware and program so for me it was money well spent, but if you have only one car that is chip-tunable and it is mostly stock, then it may not be too helpful.

Be sure you have a very solid background and good depth of knowlege on engine management systems and engine theory. You can make a royal mess of your engine by making incorrect tuning adjustments. Unlike a carburetor or distributor, the ECM will accept "full advance at 1200 RPM" (detonation and hole in piston) or and an AFR of 4:1 (flood and washdown rings) without complaining. It is a "dumb box" and only does what you tell it to do. There are no safeguards, whatever you put in the chip, it does.

Other than that, have fun! Any more questions, ask I have been away and unable to post in a while.

Don't feel bad, I have been labelled ADHD forever. Back in school it was bad but now I have more energy than 2 "normal" people! :)

David

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I have been labelled ADHD forever


That wasn't the problem....your mind was focused elsewhere....COOL HAND LUKE had the same problem:

CAPTAIN (to Luke)

You run one time, you got yourself a
set of chains. You run twice, you
got two sets. You ain't gonna need
no third set because you're gonna
get your mind right... And I mean
right.

[dagr8tim]

Looks like we have a good amount of info. If we want to get it all together in one place, I'll be more than happy to host the info on my domain. We just need a way to arrange all the files on one place.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

We just need a way to arrange all the files on one place.

DIY PROM Do It Yourself PROM chip burning help.
(http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/)

[dagr8tim]

DIY PROM Do It Yourself PROM chip burning help.
(http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/)

I was thinking an A Body exclusive collection.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I was thinking an A Body exclusive collection.

I think A Bodies as a whole are setting in the sunset...and most all owners just want a stock setup.

Imho, there's not too much that can be done, unless you own 3.8 V6 motor....I would not waste time/money on 2.8 V6 since HP gains tend to be smaller in comparison to 3.8 motor setup.

I think getting into a MegaSquirt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaSquirt) might be a better route to go since a Turbo setup can be used with it....and the price I think is much cheaper, and you can do it yourself.

For myself, if I was going to learn, I would dive into MegaSquirt (www.MSefi.com) since it can be used on many different vehicles.

[dagr8tim]

I think A Bodies as a whole are setting in the sunset...and most all owners just want a stock setup.

Imho, there's not too much that can be done, unless you own 3.8 V6 motor....I would not waste time/money on 2.8 V6 since HP gains tend to be smaller in comparison to 3.8 motor setup.

I think getting into a MegaSquirt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaSquirt) might be a better route to go since a Turbo setup can be used with it....and the price I think is much cheaper, and you can do it yourself.

For myself, if I was going to learn, I would dive into MegaSquirt (www.MSefi.com) since it can be used on many different vehicles.

For what it's worth, I'd like to get back into writing code. I thought this project may rekindle my love of writing code.

[mickstan_VR]

This whole process is a bit over my head right now. And a bit too expensive. At least I now know what is involved in it, which was my original intention. I think the most bang for the buck for the VR will be a turbocharged setup like the one in Brians GTP. But even that wouldn't happen for awhile...I still got my heart set on a '68 GTO clone or an '88 4+3 Corvette!