My Cutlass Ciera Kicked the Can

[87Cutlass Ciera]

I was driving home from University on Wednesday, and my Cutlass Ciera decided to kick the can. (1987, 2.5L 207000km) I was about 2 hours from home and I was out passing somebody when the car jumped up into passing gear and jumped timing, I had little to no power, wasn't quite sure what had happened at first (the car had been acting funny for a few months, like water in the gas or bad coil packs) So I pull over and pop the hood. There is quite a bit of oil in the air breather, and my new air filter is black. So i removed the hose that comes off the valve cover and tried to get her to go. Finally she starts, but she's blowing smoke everywhere, but only out of that hose coming off the valve cover (not the PCV valve) So I call dad and ask him what he thinks it is, but being 2 hours away he can't tell me to much, so from what he gets he thinks it's ok to crawl along. So I close the hood and try my best. 5km later the oil light is on and I'm done. I pop the hood again to find a quart of oil all over the right side of the engine bay (came out of that hose) She wouldn't start again after that, so we went down the next off ramp to the nearest gas station (about a kilometer walk) I grab a quart of oil and take it back up to the car and throw it in. I try her again, and she attempts but I hear this strange noise something I'd never heard before, and then she stopped cranking. So I figure that she jumped timing once and was still able to run, then the second time she jumped again, and when I tried a thrid time it jumped once more and a valve met with a piston. I haven't had time to get the timing gear cover off yet, nor the valve cover and head. But after my university exams (this friday) I'll be diving head first into her. Any comments are welcome, perhaps you have a better idea of what happened, want to see what she was running like the frist time it jumped check this video out.

http://hs.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=15680985180

(sometimes a little bit at the end gets cut off, watch it twice)
Thanks!!
CRC

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

(1987, 2.5L 207000km)...jumped timing...bit of oil in the air breather...had time to get the timing gear cover off yet, nor the valve cover and head.

First, your song....

Nelly Furtado (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j5_7V0DMkA)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

(1987, 2.5L 207000km)...jumped timing...bit of oil in the air breather...had time to get the timing gear cover off yet, nor the valve cover and head.


The camshaft and crankshaft gears mesh together...so unless they lost their teeth, you could not jump timing.

I have two rebuild-able 2.5 motors, but have not opened one of them up yet, in my life, to explore inner workings.

Blowing air out of intake requires valve timing to be off (open valve, timing off, etc)....

blowing oil out of intake requires valve timing to be off plus a source of oil...

if source of oil is coming from piston, then either messed up piston/rod and/or lots of blow by within crankcase.

Only thing I know of 2.5 motor right now is they get blow-by much sooner than SBC (small block chevy).

My guess is that engine is not rebuildable....heads might be OK...but I have a feeling your lower end took a hit...just a guess...if you heard noises.

[LordDurock]

hum you may have jumped the timing (the only restions i can think of is the gm used plastic cam gears on this 2.5 like they did in the 50's woith the I6's) i think you blew the top out of a piston after that

[Jr's3800]

The camshaft and crankshaft gears mesh together...so unless they lost their teeth, you could not jump timing.

I have two rebuild-able 2.5 motors, but have not opened one of them up yet, in my life, to explore inner workings.

Blowing air out of intake requires valve timing to be off (open valve, timing off, etc)....

blowing oil out of intake requires valve timing to be off plus a source of oil...

if source of oil is coming from piston, then either messed up piston/rod and/or lots of blow by within crankcase.

Only thing I know of 2.5 motor right now is they get blow-by much sooner than SBC (small block chevy).

My guess is that engine is not rebuildable....heads might be OK...but I have a feeling your lower end took a hit...just a guess...if you heard noises.


I have seen a handful of these Jump timing( Wrong words.... I have seen the Teeth striped and or worn down ).... One of the reasons the later models had the Chain as opposed to the gear set.

This sounds more like to me a Piston kissed a Valve and did its damage.... These engine has Flat tops in them with a Heart shaped combustion chamber... Not much room for variance if the timing screws up...


87Cutlass Ciera

Sorry to hear it... It sucks to have that happen...

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

.. One of the reasons the later models had the Chain as opposed to the gear set.
...

I have 1987 Olds Shop Manual, they show Gear-to-Gear meshing then....when did they change to chain drive?

I guess I will find out someday, but can the "fibered" gear be replaced with steel gear?

[Jr's3800]

I have 1987 Olds Shop Manual, they show Gear-to-Gear meshing then....when did they change to chain drive?

I guess I will find out someday, but can the "fibered" gear be replaced with steel gear?

I hope I am not confusing anyone..

Back in the earlier days of the Iron Duke GM used a Gear to Gear( Both were steel iirc ) set up for the Crank and Cam... Over time the Teeth could wear or strip out.... When this happened the timing jumped .. When you get to rebuilding your you'll know exactly what I mean... Trust me on that one:)

They later went to a Chain driven design to avoid the issues with the stripped gear to gear set up.. Once they went to the Chain set up they had fewer issues.... But at times even with the new system the Timing chain tensioner could come apart and rub a hole through the timing cover.... We had a few of those welded...lol

Now some of the GM V6's was back when did use an aluminum cam gear with Nylon teeth, over time these would degrade and break off, from there the motor could jump time at any moment.... So there is a difference on how the motors were set up...

But for this Iron duke, it sounds like Gears stripped, and there was some nasty internal damage done... Sad to hear tho

[87Cutlass Ciera]

First, your song....

Nelly Furtado (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j5_7V0DMkA)

This was good,but I'm hoping it's not the end :o

if source of oil is coming from piston, then either messed up piston/rod and/or lots of blow by within crankcase.

But I had the engine running after it had first happened, and there wasn't a thing coming out the tail pipe, if something would have happened to a piston, I would have figured rolling clouds of smoke out the tail pipe.

I have seen the Teeth striped and or worn down
The eingine made the same racket it's made since we've had it (about 3 years) I know exactly what it is and it doesn't bother me, almost music to my ears. If they would have worn down would I have not got a louder engine, and more spark knock, less power, as if somebody had turned the distributor to advance/retard the timing (I know I don't have a distributor, but I couldn't think of a better way to describe it :rolleyes:)
I'll keep everybody up to date when I get done Exams and start to tear it apart. Hoping for the best. I have a 2.5L engine for parts, but she's siezed up so about the only thing I can salvage would probably be the head. I'm not sure where she siezed up at, only sat for half a year and in that time it was over :( 1986 Cutlass Ciera, like mine, but a little older, with the boxy front facia. Headliner is stil up though! ;)

[LordDurock]

well find out soon enough i guessing in the top of a pistion

[a1veedubber]

Are you guys sure that the timing is jumped? Ive had two 2.5l heads crack (once in my 84 Euro at 89k & once in my 86 Euro at about 95k) and they both did this EXACT same thing. Major loss of power, TONS of blow by. My 84 actually blew the top of the air cleaner off!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Ive had two 2.5l heads crack (once in my 84 Euro at 89k & once in my 86 Euro at about 95k)....

Well, did you use J.B. Weld to repair them?

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

well find out soon enough i guessing in the top of a pistion

Well, we hope it ain't this: Queen
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMenB9Ywh2Q)

I thought it was mainly those 2.0 motors that had head problems?

[LordDurock]

Are you guys sure that the timing is jumped? Ive had two 2.5l heads crack (once in my 84 Euro at 89k & once in my 86 Euro at about 95k) and they both did this EXACT same thing. Major loss of power, TONS of blow by. My 84 actually blew the top of the air cleaner off!

hum............this could be it to.......but it kinda wierd though no loss collent ot make it crack. yuck either way

[a1veedubber]

I know the 82-86 2.5's have a serious head-cracking problem, not sure about the 87 & up ones though...
My 86 coupe was the first to go, I replaced the engine with a low-mileage used one from an 86 6000 back in 2002 or so. It has about 40k additional miles on it since then & I suspect that it is deveploing a cracked head again! It will probably get a new engine again next spring when I pull it out of storage, but this time it will be a brand new engine, not a used one.
When the 84 head failed, it failed spectacularly. It started with a loss of about half the engine power, and the blow by coming out of the hose similar to his vid. Since the car at that point was going to be used as a source of parts I just kept driving it around town (it couldnt get up enough speed for the interstate!) until it died. When it finally died it made a horrible popping noise and blew the aircleaner lid off! It would not crank at this point either. We pulled the motor apart and found that the cylinder that had the crack in it had actually lost part of the valve, the valve beat around in the combustion chamber for a while & eventually broke off part of the piston. At this point the motor pretty much self-destructed!
The video he posted looked exactly like the early stages of both cracked heads. The thing that would make me think otherwise is that the cracking problem was *supposedly* fixed in 87.

[LordDurock]

well hopely the 89 2.5 i have up for sale (40k total never rebuild) doesnt have the problem.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Are you guys sure that the timing is jumped? Ive had two 2.5l heads crack

I agree with LordDurock, if it was a head, I should have had steam coming out of the tail pipe, creamy white oil and oil in the antifreeze, but I have neither of these. My grandmother's 86 Cutlass Ciera (the siezed one) had 220000km on it and was still kicking strong when it was running. I was told by a GM mechanic who worked at the dealerships when the Cutlass Ciera's were rolling off the line that these engines were strong and really didn't have any problems, except for the noisey timing gears, but they were usually cured with new ones. I'm getting excited to tear it apart and see what happened! but I've got to wait :(

[LordDurock]

it realy depends on were it cracked but i dont want to devaule me better then any trunkey motor you will find 2.5. (its brand factory new and broken in)

[CieraSL92]

The 2.5 motors would strip teeth on the gears after they've accumlated mileage. Sounds like that's what happened to yours. Sucks man, good luck with it though.

[Jr's3800]

well hopely the 89 2.5 i have up for sale (40k total never rebuild) doesnt have the problem.


Does this one have the oil filter in the oil pan, and the replacement is a Cartridge? If so this would be a Forced Balanced engine and will have the Chain as opposed to the gear to gear

[LordDurock]

Does this one have the oil filter in the oil pan, and the replacement is a Cartridge? If so this would be a Forced Balanced engine and will have the Chain as opposed to the gear to gear

yep thats the one.

[Jr's3800]

I always did hate that Oil filter design....

But this was a Better 2.5 Iron duke, with fewer problems... And 40k on an 89 Duke like that is nothing at all...

At least in the later years of the Duke, it did get Roller lifters and the like and smoothed out a little, got a little quieter too...:)

[LordDurock]

I always did hate that Oil filter design....

But this was a Better 2.5 Iron duke, with fewer problems... And 40k on an 89 Duke like that is nothing at all...

At least in the later years of the Duke, it did get Roller lifters and the like and smoothed out a little, got a little quieter too...:)

yea thats why i pulled it out of the car be for it got crushed. in my mind 40k is a brocken in crate motor......

[underdog1963]

SOunds like you blew your engine!:(

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Does this one have the oil filter in the oil pan, and the replacement is a Cartridge? If so this would be a Forced Balanced engine and will have the Chain as opposed to the gear to gear

No, oil filter is on the back of the block, pretty much right under the Intake manifold/Coil Packs. You have to dislocate your shoulder and arm in order to get a hand on it. Fun!! Ok, this brings me to my next question. I still haven't gotten it completely torn apart, it happens to be cold here and working on it without shelter is not fun. But I've got my hands on a few different motors. The one I'm most interested in is one out of a Buick, with just a bit of 150000km and replaced timing gears, it sounds like a treat! But it's an 86. I figured that all the motors would be pretty much interchangeable, but thinking about it, in 87 they changed from the distributor cap and rotor to Coil Packs. So, is this engine compatible? What would I need to do. I wouldn't think much, but the computer is probably set up for Coil Packs. Anywho, I need to get dads impact gun to get the Crank Pulley off so I can get the timing cover off and have a gander at what ever damage awaits me. MOTOR STILL ROLLS OVER (I fried the starter though, engine backfired when rolling over once and the starter went backwards and you can imagine the rest)
Lemme know!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

it sounds like a treat! But it's an 86...in 87 they changed from the distributor cap and rotor to Coil Packs. So, is this engine compatible?

See if you can take your electrical parts (Coil Pack, Dist, etc), and place them on this engine...Even on a 1991 Tech-4, there is a plate for the distributor...so, if this motor is distributor-less, take off the plate and look inside it, and compare with your existing motor.

Otherwise, goto your GM dealer, and see if both vehicles used the same computer...if so, then you may need the Chip, and wiring from this vehicle if you wanted to use it with its electrical stuff on it....

PS: I'd put a new oil pump in it...

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Lemme know!

Footnote - If your local salvage yard has an interchange manual, one might see what it says.

Based upon what they say here,

GM Iron Duke engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Iron_Duke_engine)

"A more-modern serpentine belt and crank-triggered ignition was added in 1987," if this was all that was done, one way or another the 87 motor should work since no HP increases were mentioned.

Again, I would check to see if both ECMs were the same....having crank-triggered ignition would be nice...but I have no idea where your parts are coming from.

[LordDurock]

No, oil filter is on the back of the block, pretty much right under the Intake manifold/Coil Packs. You have to dislocate your shoulder and arm in order to get a hand on it. Fun!! Ok, this brings me to my next question. I still haven't gotten it completely torn apart, it happens to be cold here and working on it without shelter is not fun. But I've got my hands on a few different motors. The one I'm most interested in is one out of a Buick, with just a bit of 150000km and replaced timing gears, it sounds like a treat! But it's an 86. I figured that all the motors would be pretty much interchangeable, but thinking about it, in 87 they changed from the distributor cap and rotor to Coil Packs. So, is this engine compatible? What would I need to do. I wouldn't think much, but the computer is probably set up for Coil Packs. Anywho, I need to get dads impact gun to get the Crank Pulley off so I can get the timing cover off and have a gander at what ever damage awaits me. MOTOR STILL ROLLS OVER (I fried the starter though, engine backfired when rolling over once and the starter went backwards and you can imagine the rest)
Lemme know!

hte motor is not compatable.......(or else i would have a bran new 2.5 in shop.......errr.........never mind) they changed the block casing it looks like so you can mount a dis................or that my best guess..............

[LordDurock]

See if you can take your electrical parts (Coil Pack, Dist, etc), and place them on this engine...Even on a 1991 Tech-4, there is a plate for the distributor...so, if this motor is distributor-less, take off the plate and look inside it, and compare with your existing motor.

Otherwise, goto your GM dealer, and see if both vehicles used the same computer...if so, then you may need the Chip, and wiring from this vehicle if you wanted to use it with its electrical stuff on it....

PS: I'd put a new oil pump in it...

were this plate i cant find it show me.

[a1veedubber]

I would advise against the 86 motor. The head was changed for 87 & up and is much more durable. Also, the coil pack ignition is much better. If you thing changing the oil filter is hard try swapping out the dist whilst the engine is in the car! Also I do not think the engine can be converted to use the coil pack ignition as the crank is different.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

If you thing changing the oil filter is hard try swapping out the dist whilst the engine is in the car!

My dad has told me stories about changing plugs, wires, rotorbuttons and caps on my grandmothers 86 Cutlass Ciera, sounds like it would have been a time consuming job with a few *&$#@ added in there. I had a little taste while trying to replace the wires on my 87.

So I'm going to stay away from the 86 motor then,
The head was changed for 87 & up and is much more durable
and I'm going to assume that I shouldn't use the head of my grandmother's 86 then, just incase the one on my car is cracked/destroyed?
The 2.8 is looking better every day!

[a1veedubber]

I am honestly not even sure that an 86 Head will work on a newer engine. I know they are different, but I am not sure how!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

were this plate i cant find it show me.

I was talking via email to someone awhile back, and this person suggested that "...what i read you can put a distributor on the new duke."

If the ECMs are both the same, and motor mounts...I'd go for it.

But I'll assume this motor comes complete....otherwise, it may be a pill to convert alternator, power steering pump, etc.

Needless to say, there may be hurdles doing this....PIA....and if he is in a hurry, forget this project.

Maybe the poster needs to visit this forum: MotorSwap.org (http://www.motorswap.org/)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

were this plate i cant find it show me.

I'll see if I can take a pic on my 85 Iron Duke...later today...if they recasted lower block, then 87 and up are different beast.

GM normally doesn't change stuff radically...but there are exceptions.

[a1veedubber]

I'll see if I can take a pic on my 85 Iron Duke...later today...if they recasted lower block, then 87 and up are different beast.

GM normally doesn't change stuff radically...but there are exceptions.


What plate is this? On my old 89 2.5 Eurosport (same as 87) the crank sensor bolted up into the engine where the distributor is on my 86. The crankshaft inside the engine is different, as the older cranks are set up to drive a distributor while the newer ones are setup for a crank sensor. I would be real surprised if the ignition systems are interchangeable without a lot of work!

[LordDurock]

What plate is this? On my old 89 2.5 Eurosport (same as 87) the crank sensor bolted up into the engine where the distributor is on my 86. The crankshaft inside the engine is different, as the older cranks are set up to drive a distributor while the newer ones are setup for a crank sensor. I would be real surprised if the ignition systems are interchangeable without a lot of work!

thats what im thinking beucase i have a 3/4 inch hole that this thing on the coild backs going in to the block at. and thats it. it in line with the cam but there are no gears for a dis.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

The crankshaft inside the engine is different, as the older cranks are set up to drive a distributor while the newer ones are setup for a crank sensor.

I have a 85 & 87 Tech-IVs, but have not opened them up yet...too darn cold; but let me run thru this:

1. 87Cutlass Ciera wants his vehicle fixed now....but research is required...time.

2. If all Tech-IVs mounting to tranny/cradle is the same for all years, then there is hope.

3. 87Cutlass Ciera needs to find out if same ECMs were used, if so, then it is possible to do it. At worse, a complete wiring system is needed from other vehicle...

4. Ignition System - Having a electronic-distributor or a distributor-less ignition system is not relevant if they did not change the electronic pulse circuit. If both pulses are the same to the computer, then either system will work, just fine...in this case, if ECMs are the same, then all you need is the chip for this motor ($125.00 or so).

5. Crankshaft/Camshaft - The only way to know if differences exist is to contact a GM dealer. GM, thru out its history tends to be conservative, and does not make changes unless it is required. If there were no changes in HP, I really doubt the crank/cam was changed...research.

Again, someone stated to me "...what i read you can put a distributor on the new duke." But, if this person was blowing smoke, it may still be possible to use a later year motor...but research is required....if both ECMs are the same, and if the ignition systems' pulses are the same to the ECM, then either motor will work, if they are interchangeable into the motor-bay....and I have seen differences here in terms of where the hoses hookup, in other vehicles (I have not looked at my 85/87).

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Footnote - Will all of the accessories (power steering, alt, etc) mount up on older block, there's the sticking point...sometimes they leave out the drilled holes...

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok, so I got the timing gear cover off today. From what I can see there is nothing out of the ordinary. I need to put the crank bolt back in and turn it around to see if there is any abnormal wearing, but from where the teeth are right now there is a little bit of wear, but nothing that could possibly cause a jump. Next it's time to take the valve cover off and see if there is anything to see there, and then drain the oil and check out if there is anything in the bottom of the pan. If there is nothing in these two areas I take one last step and take the head off. I have time. I pretty much have 4 months to let the car sit. But I just don't want to cover it up and have to uncover it in April when I come home from University and have this project that looms over me. Hopefully I can figure out what the problem is before Christmas break is over becuase in April I need a car. That is that.
This pic is upside down, so the small gear is the Crank Gear and the large one is the for the cam. I see nothing wrong just looking.

It's easy to see that they were wearing down, and this is what was causing the racket at idle, but they would have to wear down a bit more in order to jump.

I didn't realize that the bracket which holds the powersteering pump and the tension pulley was going to open right up into the coolant channel. I got it loose a little and all of a sudden I get this dripping, quick grab the coolant bucket and open it up some more, and then I also didn't know that the timing gear cover was open to the bottom of the base pan too. There is this little tube coming out of the side of the block between the gears and there is two holes in it, so I'm assuming that it squirts oil out of it lubricating the gears. So these are my findings as of December 19th :o
I'm still working on it :)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Next it's time to..............is anything in the bottom of the pan.


Looking inside here and into upper area where pistons are should let you know the rest of the story...

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Looking inside here and into upper area where pistons are should let you know the rest of the story...

so drop the oil pan first or pull the valve cover?

[LordDurock]

so drop the oil pan first or pull the valve cover?

the vauvle cover will easer but hte pan might tell you more.
whne you pull the head

follow this seqince when taking of the head 2314
1 2 3 4 are the bolts (just in case the head is still good)

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok! Got the valve cover off, it's snowing a blizzard out there I had to put a blanket up around the engine bonnet, I'm sure the neighbours were wondering what the hell was happening under there. The vlave cover came off nice and easy, the PCV valve got in the way a bit but no worries. So looking at it I see no obvious flaws, all the springs are intact, the lifters are all there the push rods are all there, none are bent, nothing is out of shape, nothing looks to be wrong! Have a gander for yourself!









The white specks are just flakes of snow.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok if you can't see those pictures either you'll have to go to this website
** http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2350324 **
Sorry for the inconvienience!:o

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

so drop the oil pan first or pull the valve cover?

If you had the spark plugs out, then rotated the motor, you could see/hear if any valves might be messed up. But, you could also see if you could wiggle any rocker-arm when motor is in different positions...if so, a valve there has a problem.

From your descriptions, I suspect something amiss with piston/valve.

I might say if you knew how to line up Cam/Crank gears, and put motor in that position, you might be able tell if timing has slipped if you used a dial indicator in piston one hole.

Myself, I would have gone for the oil pan first....on 88 Beretta, its a small pill to take off...on Iron Duke, I don't know....but looking up inside at pistons gives you an idea about how much to repair.

When I take something apart that will sit for months, I organize the parts (nuts/bolts), and when possible, screw them in where they came out...Alt bolts/nuts with Alt...Power Steering bolts/nuts with Power Steering pump...etc...it takes extra time, but when you come back to a project six months later, at least these nuts/bolts are associated with right components. I put a blanket in my trunk, and lay them out neatly.

[LordDurock]

Ok! Got the valve cover off, it's snowing a blizzard out there I had to put a blanket up around the engine bonnet, I'm sure the neighbours were wondering what the hell was happening under there. The vlave cover came off nice and easy, the PCV valve got in the way a bit but no worries. So looking at it I see no obvious flaws, all the springs are intact, the lifters are all there the push rods are all there, none are bent, nothing is out of shape, nothing looks to be wrong! Have a gander for yourself!









The white specks are just flakes of snow.

okay looks like tis time to pull the head. get a piece of carb board and mark on side front (of motor) and take each a lifter off tape it to the card board and ram its push rod into the board beside it...........do this to all of them. then do that head bolt seqince 2314.
the putting nuts werre they were is a great thing to do it realy helps

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

okay looks like tis time to pull the head.


Uh, what about intake/exhaust manifold, and all the "plumbing?"

[CieraSL92]

I would remove the head next, since a fault in the crank would not cause excess oil consumption or the running problems you describe.

[a1veedubber]

I am curious to know what the #2 piston (second from the left) and it's bore looks like. All of my duke failures began with cylinder #2.

[LordDurock]

Uh, what about intake/exhaust manifold, and all the "plumbing?"

all that goes with pulling head he should be able to slipt the intake and exsaust of with out right at hte head and not remove anything else

[LordDurock]

the picts in this thread realy reinforce my dislike for magor in car motor repairs in anything after 1979

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Looking at the pics, I would venture a guess and say it skipped time. Either way, a head removal is in order to find out the damages. Or you could do it the simple way, and go find a 3.1 complete, harness, and all accessories, the EEPROM, and swap it all in. Same gas milage, more power.

Dont get me wrong, I like the 4tech, I used to swear by them. But once a problem starts, I have never seen that problem stop there, it always leads to another problem.

The person you need to talk to about dist plug/Pickup is Otisdavidson, but he isnt on this board. You can locate him over on the RareGMFWD board that RareCarVR owns.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Or you could do it the simple way, and go find a 3.1 complete, harness, and all accessories, the EEPROM, and swap it all in.

Are those top mounted motors?

If he has a 87 Ciera...I would have to double check, but I think its mounted on bottom...at least the engine I took out of 85 was.

I say check Fuel Econ specs first here (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm)...I would prefer the fuel economy of Tech IV...

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

The fuel milage for the 4tech is the same, if not slightly better than the 4tech, depending on your driving style. I was getting 28-32 on my 87 LE with a 2.8. My 89 STE AWD, when I drive it, it gets between 24-34, when my wife drives it, between 14-16 (no-highway, city only).

I am not sure what you mean by top mounted or bottom mounted..

[LordDurock]

The fuel milage for the 4tech is the same, if not slightly better than the 4tech, depending on your driving style. I was getting 28-32 on my 87 LE with a 2.8. My 89 STE AWD, when I drive it, it gets between 24-34, when my wife drives it, between 14-16 (no-highway, city only).

I am not sure what you mean by top mounted or bottom mounted..

i think he means motor mounts......

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I was getting 28-32 on my 87 LE with a 2.8.

It's winter-time now, and I drive 8 miles of gravel type roads before reaching the pavement, but currently, I'm getting about 27 mpg with a light foot with this 2.8 Beretta, which is under 3,000 lbs. Like many parts in Missouri, I cross over little hills/etc, which affects mileage.

Yes, if I back it down to around 35-40 mph, I might see 30+ mpg. Take away the winter weather, and my mph will go up a pinch since this snow/ice affects mileage.

But, based upon fuel economy specs, I'd say the Tech-IV is capable of doing better, especially in city traffic. Its why I bought two of them...I plan on rebuilding one of them next year.

I like the 2.8 motor...and getting 27 mpg is not that bad for winter driving...but 90% of my drive time is with lockup TC engaged...which is why my fuel economy is good, imho.

Yes, the motor mounts, where are they on 3.1 motor?

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

I talked to my 4-tech guru freind. His suggestion is to try to turn the engine over as it sits, you can use the starter, but just bump it, dont let the engine start. If that doesnt work, try taking the taking the spark plugs out, and trying again. If still nothing, we go to the last option (look at EDIT #3 first). Take the dist cap off, mark the timing position its in exactly. Take the distibutor off. At the base of the distributor is a roll pin holding a gear on the shaft, referred to as a drive gear. These sometimes, but rarely, shear off. See if this has happened. If it has get a new distributor, mark the timing marks IDENTICAL to your old one, and reassemble and try to turn over. DO NOT TURN OVER WITHOUT THE DIST IN. it will take you forever to find the timing again. If the drive gear is in tact on your original distibutor, then you are probly looking for a new motor...

EDIT #1 = The main thing we are after here is trying to get the engine to turn over. Also try to get the harmonic balancer bolt back on, and try to turn the engine over that way, with a big wrench, or breaker bar. With the spark plugs off, there wont be any compression resistance and you should, if the engine will allow you, to turn it over. If it has no turn over, then your engine is toast.. He has looked at your pics. He is positive your engine DID NOT jump time. Something else is going on...

EDIT #2 = Additionally, these engines are NOT transferable from the HEI style, to Dist-less systems. So if you have a DIST, you cannot use a DIST-LESS motor without completely swaping a wiring harness, comp, and everything else. And the same is true VICE VERSA.

EDIT #3 = He just mentioned to me that pulling the distibutor isnt required. The roll pin on it isnt going to stop the engine from turning over. The starters torque should spin it anyways. Also the reason the motors are not interchangeable is because the have a diferent crank, cam, and engine block in the area where the Distibutor would mount.

[a1veedubber]

EDIT #1 = The main thing we are after here is trying to get the engine to turn over. Also try to get the harmonic balancer bolt back on, and try to turn the engine over that way. If it has no turn over, then your engine is toast.. He has looked at your pics. He is positive your engine DID NOT jump time. Something else is going on...

EDIT #2 = Additionally, these engines are NOT transferable from the HEI style, to Dist-less systems. So if you have a DIST, you cannot use a DIST-LESS motor without completely swaping a wiring harness, comp, and everything else. And the same is true VICE VERSA.


I agree with this completely. I don't think it is a distributor problem though....I actually had that happen on my 86 coupe once and the engine just shut off. No advance warning or anything. His description is more like a problem that happened gradually.
I pulled out my service books for my cars and looked through them today, and I have actually had three duke failures, all were the same cause (yes, I keep maint logs on all my cars from day one!)
My 86 Euro coupe had a failure at 90k, cracked head between cyl 2 & 3, piston #2 had a chunk missing too.
My 86 Euro coupe again (used motor that had about 90k on it again!) at 113k, cracked head again between cyl 2 & 3, pistons looked ok.This one still ran when replaced.
My 84 Euro sedan at 89k (see a pattern??) with NO visible cracks on head (didnt have it checked though) but piston #2 was missing a LARGE chunk and had NO compression. It still ran though and exhibited *almost* the same exact characteristics of his original post. I kept driving it & it ended up blowing itself to pieces!! This is the car that I just parted out (and used as a test mule for my stalled X-11 hood project)
That is all for now! :) I still want to see pics of Cyl #2 though!!!

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

The motor mounts are, under the harmonic balancer, torque strut up top and front, rear mount, and tranny mounts.

[a1veedubber]

If you do need a new engine, look at the 3rd item down from the top on this link! Not sure if it will work for 87 though...

http://www.oem-surplus.com/gmwp/chevrolet.htm

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

This link shows a short block for a 87 olds, and a head for a 87 olds. Which will be the same motor. total price would be around 400 bucks, plus shipping, for a new engine. You cant beat that.

http://www.oem-surplus.com/gmwp/buick.htm

[87Cutlass Ciera]

:) I still want to see pics of Cyl #2 though!!!

When I get back home (currently I'm at my girlfriends) I'll hopefully have some more time to tear the car apart some more. I'm quite happy that somebody agrees what it couldn't have jumped timing, but that also worries me becuase if it didn't jump, oh dear the problems it could be :rolleyes: I'm going to get a shop manual for it today, I've been meaning to get one but of course I keep forgetting. 400 bucks for a complete block and a head is an awesome price!! Although the only problem would be for shipping it here. I could wait untill the Canadian Dollar goes above the American Dollar and get it here cheaper ;) but I'm guessing it is still going to be pretty expensive. I'll keep that in mind though. Thanks for the all the help, this site is awesome! The olds connection is too big, it's like a city, this here is like a small village where everybody knows everybody and everybody is friendly! Thanks again!
Chris:D

[LordDurock]

I talked to my 4-tech guru freind. His suggestion is to try to turn the engine over as it sits, you can use the starter, but just bump it, dont let the engine start. If that doesnt work, try taking the taking the spark plugs out, and trying again. If still nothing, we go to the last option (look at EDIT #3 first). Take the dist cap off, mark the timing position its in exactly. Take the distibutor off. At the base of the distributor is a roll pin holding a gear on the shaft, referred to as a drive gear. These sometimes, but rarely, shear off. See if this has happened. If it has get a new distributor, mark the timing marks IDENTICAL to your old one, and reassemble and try to turn over. DO NOT TURN OVER WITHOUT THE DIST IN. it will take you forever to find the timing again. If the drive gear is in tact on your original distibutor, then you are probly looking for a new motor...

EDIT #1 = The main thing we are after here is trying to get the engine to turn over. Also try to get the harmonic balancer bolt back on, and try to turn the engine over that way, with a big wrench, or breaker bar. With the spark plugs off, there wont be any compression resistance and you should, if the engine will allow you, to turn it over. If it has no turn over, then your engine is toast.. He has looked at your pics. He is positive your engine DID NOT jump time. Something else is going on...

EDIT #2 = Additionally, these engines are NOT transferable from the HEI style, to Dist-less systems. So if you have a DIST, you cannot use a DIST-LESS motor without completely swaping a wiring harness, comp, and everything else. And the same is true VICE VERSA.

EDIT #3 = He just mentioned to me that pulling the distibutor isnt required. The roll pin on it isnt going to stop the engine from turning over. The starters torque should spin it anyways. Also the reason the motors are not interchangeable is because the have a diferent crank, cam, and engine block in the area where the Distibutor would mount.

didnt he say he had a coil pack motor?

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Not sure, there was some talk about using other 2.5's on page 1. I was just clearing this up.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

EDIT #3 = He just mentioned to me that pulling the distibutor isnt required. The roll pin on it isnt going to stop the engine from turning over.

I still say pull the oil pan first, and look up...he indicated he was not in a hurry.

I thought he said he owned a 87, and was considering a 86 motor...hence, he would not have a distrib on 87.

So, if I read this right...85 thru 87 Tech-IVs, the blocks are the same, and are interchangable...if you change out computer/wiring, correct? Does he know if the same is true for 1991 Tech IV...will it mount OK in a 85 Ciera...if you change computer/wiring, or is this needed?

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

I am not sure. I can ask him next time I talk to him..

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I'm going to get a shop manual for it today


Check eBay...first...I've got 87 Shop Manual...just ask

Can you take out the Pan....I could look it up, but if its not that tough, it may tell you all you need to know in a shorter time frame.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

try to turn the engine over


I'm not sure where his anti-freeze ended up...on my 2.8 when I was taking off the timing chain cover, some of it ended up in the oil pan.

So, I pulled the oil plug, and drained out the anti-freeze in the oil...

If he pulled the Spark Plugs, he should be able to see which plugs are oiled up...and be able to rotate the motor via Crankshaft bolt in one direction.

[a1veedubber]

So, if I read this right...85 thru 87 Tech-IVs, the blocks are the same, and are interchangable...if you change out computer/wiring, correct?

I think its 85 & 86 are the same IIRC. I know the crank is different between 86 & 87 anyways.

[86euro]

I think its 85 & 86 are the same IIRC. I know the crank is different between 86 & 87 anyways.

X2. Lots of stuff changed in '87.

[Tuddi]

Ok if you can't see those pictures either you'll have to go to this website
** http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2350324 **
Sorry for the inconvienience!:o

Just use my free service of picture posting:

http://upload.hraunfjord.org/upload.php3











It's winter-time now, and I drive 8 miles of gravel type roads before reaching the pavement, but currently, I'm getting about 27 mpg with a light foot with this 2.8 Beretta, which is under 3,000 lbs. Like many parts in Missouri, I cross over little hills/etc, which affects mileage.

Yes, if I back it down to around 35-40 mph, I might see 30+ mpg. Take away the winter weather, and my mph will go up a pinch since this snow/ice affects mileage.

But, based upon fuel economy specs, I'd say the Tech-IV is capable of doing better, especially in city traffic. Its why I bought two of them...I plan on rebuilding one of them next year.

I like the 2.8 motor...and getting 27 mpg is not that bad for winter driving...but 90% of my drive time is with lockup TC engaged...which is why my fuel economy is good, imho.

Yes, the motor mounts, where are they on 3.1 motor?

How you would get that kind of milage out of your car is beyond me to fathom.

When these cars were NEW, the mileage was at BEST possible conditions put at around 25 miles per gallon. How anyone should get 40 miles per gallon 20+ years later out of them, should simply not be possible.

If you want to know your gas economy, do the following:

Fill up your tank, write down how many miles the car stands at. Let's assume the meter is at 200.000 miles. You drive 200 miles and then you fill it it up again (assuming you have had normal every day driving conditions during those 200 miles).

The calculation you need to use is as follows:

Distance driven divided with gallons used. (D / G)

If it took 5 gallons to fill up your tank after the 200 mile trip, your car would indeed be getting 40 miles per gallon.

If the car used 8 gallons for the trip, it would be driving under ideal conditions as when it was new. (25 miles per gallon)

Here you have a part of my fuel (non)economy:


Mind you, this is written in Kilometers, but if we take just the first two readings and convert them into miles, we have the consumption at:
10,36 miles per gallon and
15,87 miles per gallon
on average it's 13,12 miles per gallon after driving 323 miles.

No hocus pocus... just the facts.

The very best economy I ever got, was a trip outside the capital (no traffic to mention), and it was getting 21,03 miles per gallon.

My latest trip to the tankstation revealed to me that it is currently driving 8,33 miles per gallon.

No, I am not speeding. I am not driving like a crazyman.... I may be crazy, but I don't drive as if I was crazy...

So... my best advice for you is to note down all your movements in the car when you fill it up, and you will know what it is using.

40 miles per gallon is not possible with these cars. Plain and simple. A small suzuki of recent years, or a small Toyota could do it, but not our cars. Not a chance.

[LordDurock]

^ it is posable to see 40+ but you need to turbo the deisel models. but yea one should be getting better fuel eco then more ot are deisel wagon guy (whats his screen name?)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

How you would get that kind of milage out of your car is beyond me to fathom.
.....
40 miles per gallon is not possible with these cars. Plain and simple.

Have you got a pair of these?



Try them on this sentence:

Yes, if I back it down to around 35-40 mph, I might see 30+ mpg.


Last I knew, 40 mph and 30+ mpg are two different units of measurement.

[BBrip84Oatsie95]

I had about 32 mpg several times loaded down with luggage, 3 people, and air conditioner sporadically on during my trip to Colorado this past summer.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I had about 32 mpg several times...trip to Colorado this past summer.

If the wind is right going, and if the wind is right coming back, yes....and I'll assume you have the four speed Auto, which gets a pinch better.

I have a 1968 Rambler, parked in the shed for a long time, which has a 199 cubic inch 6 cylinder...with a single barrel carburettor....with radial tires, it got about 28 mpg on the way back from Colorado, many years ago.

Photo from Internet:

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

We have had this debate on other forums about what gas milage these cars can get. If we want to start this debate up again, Dont please. This thread is for talking about this mans ciera, and not about gas milages....

If you want to talk about gas milages, please follow the following link for a topic I just started on this forum...

http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3192#post3192

[87Cutlass Ciera]

We have had this debate on other forums about what gas milage these cars can get. If we want to start this debate up again, Dont please. This thread is for talking about this mans ciera, and not about gas milages....

If you want to talk about gas milages, please follow the following link for a topic I just started on this forum...

http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3192#post3192

Thank you :D I came back to post and was quite surprised to see what had happened. But thanks hopefully we go back to talking about my olds.

Speaking of my olds, I was hoping to be able to take the Base Pan off but unfortunately it was not going to be so easy. I drained the oil, no chunks came out in it, I removed the spark plugs, Cylinder 1 was Dry, Plug was fine, 2 was dry, plug was fine, 3 was wet, plug was oily and wet, 4 was dry and plug was fine. SO I will try and drop the pan on boxing day. I had to remove the starter, but the starter was broken. the bolt that is closest to the oil pan broke off flush to the block. and the starter itself broke. The part which actually turns the motor broke off of the selonloid. Fun times! I am enjoying tearing my car apart though, I'm learning some too! :cool:

[LordDurock]

Thank you :D I came back to post and was quite surprised to see what had happened. But thanks hopefully we go back to talking about my olds.

Speaking of my olds, I was hoping to be able to take the Base Pan off but unfortunately it was not going to be so easy. I drained the oil, no chunks came out in it, I removed the spark plugs, Cylinder 1 was Dry, Plug was fine, 2 was dry, plug was fine, 3 was wet, plug was oily and wet, 4 was dry and plug was fine. SO I will try and drop the pan on boxing day. I had to remove the starter, but the starter was broken. the bolt that is closest to the oil pan broke off flush to the block. and the starter itself broke. The part which actually turns the motor broke off of the selonloid. Fun times! I am enjoying tearing my car apart though, I'm learning some too! :cool:

yuck that happen to me to.......... yuck. and i have a fists or so worth of room to drill it out......you should fair much better get a puntch (they help keep a drill bit from walking all over when drilling any metal) so drill bits and a easy out. and start small and work up dont do it in on shot.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

....the bolt that is closest to the oil pan broke off flush to the block...

When you take your next set of photos...take one of this stud....I would not be concerned with it now....but if the time comes, if a center-punch can be placed firmly in dead-center and hit, then do it, and use a Reverse Drill Bit to take it out.

If a center-punch can not be placed firmly in dead-center, then you may need to file/grind it so it can.....very important to hit dead center...not a job to rush...with a Reverse Drill Bit, with drill in reverse direction, these studs will come out. If you think it is rusted, and a little bit of drilling does nothing, take out a torch and heat it...then drill it out.

If your #3 cylinder is not damaged, you might get by with a quick/dirty & cheap repair via quick hone job on #3 with replacement piston/etc....no need for complete engine overhaul...maybe replace Rods/Mains while you are there...piece of cake:cool:

[a1veedubber]

....but if the time comes, if a center-punch can be placed firmly in dead-center and hit, then do it, and use a Reverse Drill Bit to take it out.

If a center-punch can not be placed firmly in dead-center, then you may need to file/grind it so it can.....very important to hit dead center...not a job to rush...with a Reverse Drill Bit, with drill in reverse direction, these studs will come out. If you think it is rusted, and a little bit of drilling does nothing, take out a torch and heat it...then drill it out.


This is the best advice ever! It may be some doing to find them, but a set of reverse-cut drill bits (along with a reversible drill) is a very smart purchase. Most places will try to sell you some "easy-outs", but they are crap. With a reversible drill bit, as you are drilling into the broken stud/bolt, once the bit is about 1/4th to 1/2 way into the bolt it will suddenly grab it and unscrew it. Most tool places I go to have never even heard of reverse cut drill bits though!

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Thank you :D I came back to post and was quite surprised to see what had happened. But thanks hopefully we go back to talking about my olds.

:cool:


Your more than welcome my man! Sounds like a fun time with your motor..

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...
but the starter was broken...

If starter has taken a bite out of "flywheel's" starter-ring-teeth, then the motor will have to be lifted out of engine bay, at a later time...when its warmer. If this is the case, I would not take off the head now but wait until spring....unless it is needed to fully access damage, fyi.

If starter was hanging up on "flywheel's" starter-ring-teeth, this would have induced drag into motor's rotation....as such, the motor may turn over "freely" now with starter out and with two people, you could inspect #3's valves via rotating motor slowy, and also see if timing gears line up correctly (maybe they used a dot on one tooth on each gear; never taken one apart, again).

Oil Pan - There is an oil pump's assembly hanging down in oil-pan, but if the pan can drop down, there will be no clearance problems. Many times you have to twist pan sideways to get it out, and it can be tricky to find the right position (object is to not bend anything in the process). I didn't notice shop manual saying it would be difficult, but on some engines, you have to lift engine up. Does anyone know from experience if oil pan will drop out without gymnastics being involved?

But if pan comes off OK, you will need to inspect cylinder walls and rotate crank to get the fullest possible view. If all are smooth looking, its possible to work with that motor...if there exist a vertical "scar," it may be better to get another motor.

What I do, is make a list of the part items that will have to be replaced, if the bean counting goes too high, then fetch another motor, etc.

[Zaloryan]

Since my car is not as old as yours and wasn't equipped with a TECH4, my factory manual wouldn't cover your engine. So, I did the next best thing! Here's all the pages from my Haynes Repair Manual covering your engine.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage1.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage2.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage3.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage4.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage5.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage6.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage7.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage8.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage9.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage10.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage11.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage12.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage13.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/Haynes22LPage14.jpg

Whew! That was a bit of copying and pasting...

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Since my car is not as old as yours and wasn't equipped with a TECH4, my factory manual wouldn't cover your engine. So, I did the next best thing! Here's all the pages from my Haynes Repair Manual covering your engine.


Whew! That was a bit of copying and pasting...


Haha, thanks bud! But for Christmas my brother got me a Haynes Manual for my car. I used it yesterday! but I need to get an engine hoist or a chain block so I can get the motor off the motor mounts far enough to get the oil pan to drop off. All the pan does now is move around. There isn't enough clearance anywhere for it to come out, can't twist it, can't go back or forth, no luck anywhere, and I want the oil pan dropped before I tackle the head. And by the way, I was having a look at your page on cardomain, you're doing an awesome job at catolouging everything and it looks like it's coming along really well! I hope that my motor comes along just as well! Thanks!
Chris:)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

oil pan dropped before I tackle the head.


Bummer....you may just want to remove whole engine if you get a cherry picker, but:

1. Is your "flywheel's" starter ring messed up?

2. Can you rotate the motor freely with starter removed (and spark plugs too)?

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

There isn't enough clearance anywhere for it to come out,


Read this for 1986-92 MODELS (http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0e/f7/e8/0900823d800ef7e8/repairInfoPages.htm)

When they say: Raise and support the vehicle.

I think they mean after raising it, use a support fixture J-28467 to hold engine...I've never done this before...but I suspect this is what is meant.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Bummer....you may just want to remove whole engine if you get a cherry picker, but:

1. Is your "flywheel's" starter ring messed up?

2. Can you rotate the motor freely with starter removed (and spark plugs too)?

The flywheel is fine, everything around the flywheel is fine too, just the bolt which is broken off. as for the motor turning over, I put the bolt back in and was turning the motor over freely, I also noticed that the timing marks match up too! As for cylinder 3 I decided to put that plug back in and see if there was an suction/pressure and there seemed to be! So looks like nothing too bad happened, I'm really quite stumped! Could the PCV valve had gone (I can shake it and hear it moving) but that wouldn't have caused the car to die like it did. If it were the PCV valve, when I had disconnected the hose running to the air intake, it should have stopped acting horrible. Ok so the motor is coming out before I go back to University, I'll update then when I can get the oil pan off and make sure all looks smooth.

[LordDurock]

The flywheel is fine, everything around the flywheel is fine too, just the bolt which is broken off. as for the motor turning over, I put the bolt back in and was turning the motor over freely, I also noticed that the timing marks match up too! As for cylinder 3 I decided to put that plug back in and see if there was an suction/pressure and there seemed to be! So looks like nothing too bad happened, I'm really quite stumped! Could the PCV valve had gone (I can shake it and hear it moving) but that wouldn't have caused the car to die like it did. If it were the PCV valve, when I had disconnected the hose running to the air intake, it should have stopped acting horrible. Ok so the motor is coming out before I go back to University, I'll update then when I can get the oil pan off and make sure all looks smooth.

pull the head it sounds like craked head. a this point. which could cause the amount of "blow by" if it craked at hte right place. i would miss the water jacket.
or i could have been a messed up pistion. eighter way pulling the head would be the next step. pulling the pan wont show you much

[a1veedubber]

I am still voting for a cracked head (between cyl 2&3) and possible damage to one of those pistons.....

[LordDurock]

I am still voting for a cracked head (between cyl 2&3) and possible damage to one of those pistons.....

+1 it sure looking like that now.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

As for cylinder 3...plug back in


Got a nice photo of it?

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

cylinder 3


Have someone rotate crank slowly, and watch #3 valves go up/down...look at another valve set too, for comparison.

There was no water in OIL....did you pitch the oil?

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Have someone rotate crank slowly, and watch #3 valves go up/down...look at another valve set too, for comparison.

There was no water in OIL....did you pitch the oil?

I was able to watch the valves go up and down as I roated the crank myself, everything seemed to look as it should, my dad said to have both valves down and see if there is any play in them, I haven't tried that yet, it snowed and rained all day. refering to your last post, I'll take a nice video of it and you can have a look too! There was no water in the oil before I took the power steering pump bracket off, then some of the antifreeze went in there by accident. No frothy white stuff or oil on top of the anitfreeze. I'm still yanking the motor, I have the base pan disconnected just not off and I have to hoist the motor up to get it off, so might as well hoist it completely out and set it aside. I will get to the bottom of this!! (after it comes out I'm pulling the head!)
CRC

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

dad said to have both valves down and see if there is any play in them


I've never tried this, but if you can put #-3 cylinder in its BDC (bottom dead center: both valve stems would be up I assume)....and use compressed air with a fitting that would seal off #-3 spark plug hole and hold compressed air (screw in fitting), you could apply this compressed air into cylinder and see what happens.


Firing order: 1-3-4-2 on your 2.5 Distributorless ignition....which may mean if you had it at TDC for #-1 cyinder, and gave a small squirt of air, #-3 piston will fall down to BDC when it rotates motor in opposite direction...check to see if both valve stems are fully up.

Again, never tried this, and never opened up a GM 2.5 L motor yet....but if this holds air, it means #-3 valves/piston are intack....you do this trick when replacing valve stem seals....if the piston is not at bottom of throw, it will be with compressed air.

If you have compressed air, you might be able to borrow this tool from a mechanic....maybe...an all around mechanic would have one.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Wow the forum has changed a bit, more smilies and stuff. Anyways the reason I'm back is that (No I have not gotten the engine out yet but I needed to bounce an Idea that came to me today)
OK!!! So if we recall all the happenings that surrounded the final moments of the Iron Duke, and having gotten a little bit of insight into what might have happened (Timing still on, Nothing broken on Top End, Still Rolls over, BUTTTT!!!!!!! No.3 Cyl is wet, just oily and such, no water!!!!) So is it at all possible that perhaps I blew Compression Ring?? That could explain a lot of things! The pressure from the strokes would have caused more pressure in the Crank case causing it to escape out the PCV Valve and consequently into the airbreather, it wouldn't have ran so well, as to why it died and wouldn't start, I dont' know. But now that I think about it, if a ring went I would have had a plume of smoke coming out of my tail pipe, would I have not, but also in say that, (Dear god this goes in a never ending circle!) while there was oil and smoke being pumped into the Airbreather and Intake there wasn't much for smoke coming out of the exhaust. Ok thats just my thought as for now, I need to think about getting the motor some weekend I'm home. Anywho! HAPPY NEW YEAR!! even though we're almost 10 days into it, but still :cheers:

Chris

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

So i removed the hose that comes off the valve cover and tried to get her to go. Finally she starts, but she's blowing smoke everywhere, but only out of that hose coming off the valve cover (not the PCV valve)

Got a pic...I'm confused here...excessive pressure coming out of Valve Cover's hole denotes increased pressure within crankcase...which is due to defective compression ring(s), generally speaking.

Where does your PCV valve/hose dump into...near air filter?

A compression check will confirm if compression rings are shot...but you need to get starter working.

PS: I'm not spending much time here on this forum...but if others don't respond by the time I make my rounds...I'll give you my two cents worth when I come by.

[LordDurock]

just take the head off it go to go to replace what ever happened. there not point in just trying to make a hole picture when you have more info to to get beside it tell you weather you just need a head or new block or a new everything. put it.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

just take the head off


What is not known is if there was an electrical issue also involved...on spark plug 3. The other three cylinders were good to go...which puts a question mark on electrical side....cylinder 3 just may have bad rings...shot craps...which I have seen before...and oil consumption goes way up when this happens...but the spark plugs were still firing.

Blow by is common to all newer/older motors...some more than others...but, if PCV hose was recently dumping large amounts of oil-vapor onto air filter, then this engine has excessive blow-by due to bad compression/oil rings.

I would take the whole motor out...but I have no idea what resources he has...especially in a cold environment up there....but with a compression check, we would know more...he might be able to do a quick hone job on number three, and just have to take off the head.

Chances are, its time to replace all the rings in all cylinders...this is why I would take the motor out...and fix it inside, or get another motor.

[LordDurock]

What is not known is if there was an electrical issue also involved...on spark plug 3. The other three cylinders were good to go...which puts a question mark on electrical side....cylinder 3 just may have bad rings...shot craps...which I have seen before...and oil consumption goes way up when this happens...but the spark plugs were still firing.

Blow by is common to all newer/older motors...some more than others...but, if PCV hose was recently dumping large amounts of oil-vapor onto air filter, then this engine has excessive blow-by due to bad compression/oil rings.

I would take the whole motor out...but I have no idea what resources he has...especially in a cold environment up there....but with a compression check, we would know more...he might be able to do a quick hone job on number three, and just have to take off the head.

Chances are, its time to replace all the rings in all cylinders...this is why I would take the motor out...and fix it inside, or get another motor.
you siad what i was saying there no point in fusting with it just do it.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...just do it....

There are two sides here:

1. Electrical Issue - Vehicle can run on three cylinders....but didn't.

2. Mechanical Issue - After looking at my 87 Olds today, blow-by is directed into Air Cleaner...so, if he had been checking Air Cleaner before, and now it is oily, then one can conclude there is an increase in crankcase pressure...most likely related to cylinder #3.

I'd pull the whole motor out....and do it inside....but I'm not sure he has this luxury.

Hmm, maybe he could get this dude to do it:

A man exercises (on ice) before swimming in the River Vokhov in Russia's ancient city of Veliky Novgorod in Moscow.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

The Temps around here have been well about normal, about 7-9 degrees C. But I just got home last night and I was at my g/f so I didn't get to do anything. But when I got home I spent an hour and a half disconnecting things. I've got one bracket left to dissconnect and then I can heave-ho!.... (hopefully) the bracket is tricky, it connects the motor (at the back) to the transaxle. So there are two bolts on the transaxle, and one on the motor. I can reach the two with extensions, but then it becomes very instable and I can't really get anything to happen, but if I try to go for the one bolt, I pretty much have to dislocate my arm out of my shoulder and then probably my elbow too, but I'll see what I might be able to accomplish tomorrow before I go back to school. That guy is crazy, but inspirational, but more crazy, so I'll continue thanking the gods for the warm weather we've been experiencing! I am sticking with my original prognosis, the rings, so I'll find out when I get the heart out! I can't pull the head till I get the motor out because it has those things that you can hook onto with the chainblock or hoist to pull it out, so I'm going to wait till I get it out. Right!! Homework to do! I'll get back to it tomorrow!
CRC

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

I've got one bracket left to dissconnect and then I can heave-ho!.... (hopefully) the bracket is tricky, it connects the motor (at the back) to the transaxle. So there are two bolts on the transaxle, and one on the motor.

When the tires are removed (and vehicle blocked), you get better access to those bolts, with a long extension, you get the motor/tranny bolt too.

ReRing Kits are cheap...Northern Auto Parts is your Engine Kit Headquarters
(http://www.naparts.com/)

I think they do ship to Canada...check out free catalog offer towards bottom, it shows provinces.

Btw, was the Air Cleaner soaked with oil?

[87Cutlass Ciera]

you get better access to those bolts, with a long extension, you get the motor/tranny bolt too.


Btw, was the Air Cleaner soaked with oil?

Which Tranny bolt, the only one on the opposite side (all of them face the driverside tire, this one faces the passenger side) I got it, had to use a little bit of a different tactic, but it came! I just put a wrench on it put my foot on the wrench and pushed and it broke free. As for the air cleaner, Yes it was soaked with oil! There was oil pooled in the breather and the filter was black.

[notsoslimshady76]

Hmm, maybe he could get this dude to do it:

A man exercises (on ice) before swimming in the River Vokhov in Russia's ancient city of Veliky Novgorod in Moscow.



85Ciera: You have made me laugh in several threads now. You're alright in my books.

87CutlassCiera: maybe just wait for warmer weather? I assume this isn't your only mode of transporation

[87Cutlass Ciera]

87CutlassCiera: maybe just wait for warmer weather? I assume this isn't your only mode of transporation

Well I just enjoy tearing things apart so much that I keep doing it. I ran out of time this weekend, but the A frame is over the car and everything is ready to go. Next weekend hopefully I'll have results to post! As for transportation, many modes :) Talk to you all next weekend!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Which Tranny bolt...

Tranny Bolts - Via passenger side, you use long extension...for Tranny/Motor. Also, you access other mounting nuts/bolts from this side...

Look closely with good flashlight or trouble light...it's that lower one on firewall side that gets missed.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

it's that lower one on firewall side that gets missed.

Lower one on firewall side... Would it happen to be under the Intake manifold and close to the coil packs? It's a bracket, one bolt goes into the block, and then two go into the transaxle? I wish I had a picture I'd show you which one I'm thinking of. But the trans sepearted from the motor when I took the last bolt out... I can't wait to get that base pan off and see what I can see!
This is the closest I can come to showing you. Right where the Axle goes into the transmission, the bracket bolts up there, then connects to the motor. Under the Intake between the Oil Filter and the Coil packs. Ok, I'm off! thanks! :)

CRC

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Would it happen to be under the Intake manifold and close to the coil packs? It's a bracket,...But the trans sepearted from the motor when I took the last bolt out...

Usually, the last step is separation of transmission from engine...in my book....those bolts close to coil packs on that engine-transmission's output-shaft bracket there are done earlier.

I hope you have an overhead chain on motor....I never read the manual...I just did it...but I've done this stuff before...I just mentally figure it out.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Finally, The motor is out!! It didn't take too much just a little bit of patience. The first attempt rendered me with too much slack on the chain that was attatched between the two pull points so the motor got up as far as it was going to go and it wasn't near far enough to go over the front of the car. So we had to put the motor back down and luckily it rested on the strut tower, transmission and something else so we got the slack taken care of and got it up as high as possible, then dad had to push the car back with his car. SO finally with the car away from the motor I was able to have a look and see if there was any thing to see. First of all, there was nothing in the oil pan. All the cylinder walls look shiny, I can't see any scratches nicks or anything that would render the car lifeless. But it saying that I couldn't see anything, It was hard to see much of anything. Now it's resting in a trailer and it will have to wait untill I get home next untill I tackle the head. I'll post pics in the morning:)





No.1

No.2

No. 3 (Notice the different colour)

No. 4
Also I just noticed, but No. 2 and No. 3 see to be different than No. 1 and 4. Is this normal?

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Oh Hell I should have known it wouldn't work. Go to this site and check out the pics, they're right there http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2350324 (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2350324)

[turbokinetic]

Yes I see the darker color on that piston. Doesn't look too bad to me but it is hard to tell from below.

I just read some of the earlier posts; I take it your engine quit running, ane eventually you were able to get it re-started. Now it is blowing loads of blow-by out the crankcase vent?

Did you do a compression test? Will be interesting to see what the top and sides of the pistons look like.

Thanks for the pictures!

[a1veedubber]

Oh Hell I should have known it wouldn't work. Go to this site and check out the pics, they're right there http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2350324 (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2350324)


#3 looks toasted pretty good compared to the others.....need to see pics from the top though.....this looks exactly like the probs Ive had.
On another note, I dig the red Passat Wagon in the background....I love that bodystyle!

[87Cutlass Ciera]

#3 looks toasted pretty good compared to the others.....need to see pics from the top though.....this looks exactly like the probs Ive had.
On another note, I dig the red Passat Wagon in the background....I love that bodystyle!

Spring break is 5 weeks away, so taking the head off will by the next thing to do and thats when I'll do it. Yeah, the Passat (not a wagon). Nickname, the Pissoff. Expensive car!(but I love it) 93 Turbo Diesel. My parents just bought an 03 Grand Am, they're bringing me the Passat in 3 weeks :D

[LordDurock]

^lucky i love the 1.6 and 1.9s i not sure which the 93 had but what ever....................now if i could find a turbo 1.6 for the dune buggy that would be scary

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok, I'm home for spring break, and I got out today to take the head off the motor. I was surprised by how nicely it came off, no real problems, all the rods came out slick, all the head bolts came out except one but it came out after a few others.
So the Diagnosis! Time to look for another motor. There's a piece of the number 3 piston missing, not a very big piece, but it's about an 1.5 inches long, and about half an inch wide at middle. It looks like it's broken, but yet there isn't any sign of a piece of piston in the combustion chamber. No marks on the the top of the head, the valves are in great shape. Perhaps it melted? But my father said if it got hot enough to melt a piece of the piston there should be scorch marks. Well here are the pictures. I had talked to somebody who has a motor a while ago (before Christmas when this all began) and I'm going to take a run to have a look at the motor and hear it run, then probably purchase it. I'll worry about doing my transmission swap at a later date, I want my olds back on the road.
Thanks for all of your help and everything, Love this site!!!:rock:


No.3 Cylinder vavles


All of them

There's the damage

They all looked to be in pretty good shape!




The Hole

[turbokinetic]

Dude! Sorry to see that. The pictures didn't show here but I was able to view them on CarDomain. Here is one I marked on for you :) This type of damage is caused by compression and cumbustion leaking past the rings and eroding the aluminum of the piston.



The root cause could be several things. It could be detonation (spark knock) that breaks the rings allowing the compression to leak. But most likely it was caused by overheating. There ARE score marks on the cylinder wall visible above the damaged piston. The heat gets so severe that the alumimum piston softens and deforms, trapping the rings in the grooves. They no longer seal and burning fuel/ air mixture bypasses the piston, beginning the erosion process.

If the remainder of the engine is in fine shape, have it bored out and put in a set of new pistons. Then you know what you have. With another used engine, there is no telling what that engine has already endured.

[CieraSL92]

1 Can of restore and you'll be good to go :)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Time to look for another motor.


Ah yes....LOOK....

Is there a machinist in your area?

Ask him if a quick/dirty hone or bore on number three might work, with the others being just honed. Don't laugh, some auto rebuilders do this all the time.

Question - How many more miles do you want out of it?

ReRing Kits aren't that much...and your labor is cheap....a good machinist might have an opinion too.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

This type of damage is caused by compression and combustion leaking past the rings and eroding the aluminum of the piston.....The root cause could be several things.

SideBar - In late eighties, on 350-V8 motors, GM had a "better" idea...the rings' depth were shallower....and oil rings would shoot craps, with oil consumption shooting way up...fast.

I have no idea how "deep" these rings are...on his vehicle.

[turbokinetic]

....Is there a machinist in your area?..... hone or bore .....ReRing Kits aren't that much....


+1 on all that! Don't give up on your motor. Have you ever rebuilt one before? If not this is a good one to start on. It is simple, not extremely expensive (in the very unlikely a mistake happens) and the experience you gain will be worth more than every penny spent on parts.

Go for it!!

David

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Penny saving is wonderful, but unfortunately time is of the essence, and I called around to the local rebuild shop, and it's going to cost more to get a hone job done and buy new pistons/rings/gaskets. So I'm probably just going to get another motor. Also my parents sway the argument, and they're saying no to the rebuild. If it were me, I would definitely do the rebuild, I agree the experience would be well worth it, but I guess now isn't the time. :) I'll keep everybody posted on what I find for a new motor. I know I might end up in the same prediciment that I'm in now, and if I do, well, I'll take it as it comes! I'll post a picture of the cylinder wall for Turbokinetic.
Night!!

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Alright!!
The close of a chapter, and the beginning of a new life for the Cutlass C!
The new heart is in place and in need of a few parts before I can give it the first fire up! Wasn't too much pain to get it in. Dad and I spent all weekend doing the work to it and I was hoping to give it a small test fire this evening, but while pouring Antifreeze in, noticed that my homemade gasket didn't do the trick around the waterpump housing, and dad didn't put enough silicon (RTV gasket stuff...) around the tensioner bracket (the one that holds the PS pump and keeps the antifreeze inside the block) so it was leaking there. Tomorrow I will either get the parts or oder them. Also need new plugs (the wires were new like a month before the car died) a Doughnut gasket for the exhaust manifold to pipe and oil and a filter, plus engine flush (when I removed the valve cover [which was hardly even on] there was a bit of sludge up there, so I cleaned it out and hoping for the best)
Alright, thats it, talk later

[LordDurock]

+1 on all that! Don't give up on your motor. Have you ever rebuilt one before? If not this is a good one to start on. It is simple, not extremely expensive (in the very unlikely a mistake happens) and the experience you gain will be worth more than every penny spent on parts.

Go for it!!

David

+3 to every thing..................includeing thje esperince gain........i learned alot........ and it was well worth it. i would correct david on this it is unlikely a fatal mistake will happen.......but misstake have happend like me forgeting to hone half my clyderned ;) but 2-3 k shuold have the msealed again.

[turbokinetic]

....when I removed the valve cover [which was hardly even on] there was a bit of sludge up there, so I cleaned it out and hoping for the best

Oh... Please hope the oilpan is clean. I guess you saw my story about messing up my engine because of sludge in the pan when everything else looked OK.

Does your motor have the "big" plug thingy in the pan where you can see up into the pan? If so I would try to clean it out in there. Sometimes old motors that sit for a long time then all of a sudden start running again, have issues. Like the old crud breaks loose and circulates in the oil, causing an untimely death.

Oilpan was full of crap-a-doo-doo:


Took out the main brgs:


And took out the turbo:


Please don't let this happen to your engine! I'm in the middle of a full rebuild now because of this.
David

[87Cutlass Ciera]

This motor does have that big thing in the bottom of the pan. An in-pan oil filter is a new concept for me, it'll be interesting the first time I change the oil (which should be tomorrow or sometime this week) I'm getting the parts tomorrow and hopefully I'll get them on. I'm really really excited to finally get the car going! I'll make sure to take a video of the first start! I decided to hold off on the T440 swap because it wasn't going to be as simple as I had hoped, and dad and I only really had that weekend. And I really need the Olds on the road now cause the Passat is in need of some parts (rearend, tires, wheel bearings, ball joints...) and putting fuel in the Passat is like buying gold! $1.56/L here, 30 bucks gives me just 20 litres. So I need the Cutlass Ciera back. Plus I just really miss my car. I also decided that the full cluster dream, will just be a dream for now. The only thing I did change was the radio, I put in the tape deck equipped Delco radio instead of the plain stock one.

[Tonglebeak]

Might I ask: the bulb test, I see the entire left side is lit up. I don't have each and every one of those lit in my ciera...What all do they say?

[LordDurock]

This motor does have that big thing in the bottom of the pan. An in-pan oil filter is a new concept for me, it'll be interesting the first time I change the oil (which should be tomorrow or sometime this week) I'm getting the parts tomorrow and hopefully I'll get them on. I'm really really excited to finally get the car going! I'll make sure to take a video of the first start! I decided to hold off on the T440 swap because it wasn't going to be as simple as I had hoped, and dad and I only really had that weekend. And I really need the Olds on the road now cause the Passat is in need of some parts (rearend, tires, wheel bearings, ball joints...) and putting fuel in the Passat is like buying gold! $1.56/L here, 30 bucks gives me just 20 litres. So I need the Cutlass Ciera back. Plus I just really miss my car. I also decided that the full cluster dream, will just be a dream for now. The only thing I did change was the radio, I put in the tape deck equipped Delco radio instead of the plain stock one.

whatyear was the motor you bought. and your saying the oil in pain filter motor fit in A's........this would be a God send

also when you start up that motor forthe first time hook man mechnail oil perssure gauge up to it and a mech temp guage as well (you can leave the them just sitting in there with the hood open) doing this will give you clear reading as you test hte motor. befor you drive the car make sure the oil perssure reaches spec and the car reaches normal opreating temp. then then drive it realy hard for a couple minnits.......just o be safe and to check that everythingis working.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

The Bulb test from top to bottom is...
BRAKE
TEMP
OIL
CHARGE
FASTEN BELTS

The motor was out of an 88 Pontiac Fiero, and the motor was an 88. And it fit in there like a glove. And I will get everything checked out. Dad has the stuff, and we'll look at all the readings!
I changed the oil tonight, everything looked fine, no chunky stuff nothing thick. I couldn't see into the pan to see if there was anything stuck to the bottom, and I couldn't get anything in there to clean. Right now I just need to get the Adapter-to-block gasket on and then the Waterpump assembly back on that. And I need to put a bead of RTV gasket maker around the Power Steering Bracket which mounts to the block and keeps the Antifreeze in the block. Plus I need to put the Doughnut gasket on the exhaust pipe and change my plugs and wires. Then it's the first fire! I got most of the dash back together, I'm just waiting to get a light bulb for the light above the ashtray and then I can put that back on!
So all is good in my world, and I'm excited to get it going!
CRC

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Nothing ever goes as one plans it to!
Setbacks seem to be occuring quite frequently with this motor. Tonight I thought was going to be the night (I guess you're wondering what the setbacks were thus far... Basically parts, and the parts store giving me the runaround for a week, so I said screw them and made myself a gasket out of RTV sealant!!) So Everything is back together, the Water pump is back on the block, I have the rad filled with Antifreeze and there are no leaks. I replaced the piece of heater hose that I found a huge hole in,

and everything worked out well there.

The exhaust went back up into place easy enough. I was now on to the final step of changing the Spark plugs. They come out, No4, No3 No2, and I look at dad and said. "Finally I'll get to hear it running tonight!" and I gave a twist on number one and wouldn't you know it! The damn plug slipped right out of the thread! :werd: So now I have to find an easy-out and get the rest of the plug out!!

I won't get to hear it running until maybe Sunday. I'm going to my girlfriends tomorrow so nothing will be happening to it till I get home on Sunday evening! Ugh, always something!!
Here's the motor though, all ready to go! And my car also ready to go!

[87Cutlass Ciera]

IT LIVES IT LIVES IT LIVES!!!!!:rock:
I went to get the easy-out and instead I got a Thorax bit. Simple, I can't believe I hadn't thought of it. Well actually I can, all you had to do though was put a big enough thorax bit in the hole, give it a whack or two with a hammer and then twist it out (and hope it comes out!) So out it came, and I put a new plug in, hooked the wires up and then started cranking. The injector must have been dirty because it kept dripping even after the key was turned off, and so it kept flooding the motor, but eventually we got it, after a little argument, but we got it. The horrible screaching was the belt. I thought it was the idler pully, but I had put the belt on wrong:kekeke: So after I got the belt turned around, everything was fine. I put about 1.5L of Transmission fluid in it. And the air worked itself out of the cooling system. Everything is working well except I have to change the oil sending unit. Right now it has the unit on it for the gauge, and so the light is on as if it were a gauge (dim and works gets darker/lighter with acceleration). So I'll have to put mine back on. The motor runs smooth, much smoother than my old motor, it's quiet and it doesn't smoke. I can't wait to get it on the road now. I'll drop a link to a video of it running as soon as I get it uploaded.
Thanks for all the help, I'll definitely still be around, but just want to thank everybody!
CRC

[Tuddi]

Happy for you and your car!

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Here's the link to the video of the first start. It's almost 9 minutes long, so If you move it ahead to about 6 minutes, or 7 minutes you'll catch the best part of it! And the second is just a walk around I did at night.
The First Attempt(s) (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=46105080180)

The Walk Around (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=46103795180)

[turbokinetic]

Yay glad you got it running. Few things as frustrating as a low battery, "sleepy" engine, and leaking injector!!! I'd have had to wake it up with a quick sniff of starting spray if it were me! :)

Thanks for the videos!

David

[notsoslimshady76]

Nice commitment to the project!

[Tuddi]

The First Attempt(s) (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=46105080180)

The Walk Around (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=46103795180)


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CIA Gets in Your Face(book)
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2007/01/72545

I think I will have to live without seeing your success story.... me and the CIA don't hold the same views.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

oooo.. I didn't realize that you had to log in... hmmm, I apologize. Maybe I can get it up on cardomain, and those who don't want to get facebook or don't need facebook can see it

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Or use Photobucket...

[turbokinetic]

What about You Tube? Anyone can view it without logging in, has neat video statistics and demographics data features too. You can see how many times and by what regions people view it. Free and no registration needed to view videos; free to upload but registration needed to upload.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Here! Now anybody can view it!!
The First attempts to get the Olds Running (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJTwuGmYleI)

[Tuddi]

Thanks! Like it should be... a hightened adrenaline production and shouting. But it came alive in the end.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Yes it sure was fun, I like watching it to relive the moment. The motor seems to be working ok. Pretty peppy for a 4cyl. Yesterday I had the check engine light come on and the car seemed to lack power, so I took it home, turned it off and turned it back on and the light was gone. I checked the codes to see what it was and I got Code 42, but all seems fine now!

[CieraSL92]

haha do you happen to have an extra pair of black socks?!