Frustrated Reassembly

[Zaloryan]

Since I joined a while ago, I'll spill why I'm here. I am having the toughest time with my car, Bessie. The day I bought her, white smoke poured out my tailpipe as soon as I got in my driveway. Head gasket leak for sure. I fixed it, put new plugs, wires, air filter, tranny fluid, belt, oil, oil filter, and antifreeze along with new gaskets in the whole top end of my engine. Had a neighbor set the valve lash that builds racecars. (Came back to bite me in the butt)

Got her all back together, drove Bessie for a week, then the she stranded me in town. I thought it was my MAF sensor. Replaced it, and it still wasn't fixed. Pulled my fuel filter and found it to be plugged. Slapped a WIX fuel filter on there and dropped the fuel tank and put a new fuel pump in. (Found my build sheet there too) Bessie idled erractically and sounded like she was missing. Thought she was okay to drive, then she stranded me again.

This time, two of my lifter pivot studs broke off. One of the studs broke off inside the head threading. Got an EZ-Out drill bit and it came right out. I was able to worm the other one out with my thumb. :) Turns out my neighbor didn't tighten the pivots enough. He turned the motor until the pushrod went all the way down, but he tightened it like it was an older V8 with HEI and none of the electronic stuff my 3300 has. This time, I got my pushrods all the way down and torqued my lifter pivot bolts to 28 lbs like my service manual said. Got everything back on, and the motor STILL idles erractically. My dad brought me home a brand new BOSCH O2 Sensor and I put it on tonight. (Threw code 44, so I got the new sensor) Bessie idles pretty erractically, but she will occasionally sputter through from time to time. What the hell is going on? Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I've had Bessie for over 3 months now, and she's spent 2/3 of it in my driveway. :( All my wiring it okay, she won't throw any trouble codes, and my spark plugs look waaay too rich. My fuel pressure measures what it should (41-47), but this is puzzling the hell oughta me, not to mention making me sick with frustration! Please help! :confused:

[86euro]

I have no experience with the 3300, but I know you're not supposed to set the lash by tightening it down until the pushrod bottoms out.

[Zaloryan]

I have no experience with the 3300, but I know you're not supposed to set the lash by tightening it down until the pushrod bottoms out.

But if I didn't do that, some of the pressure from the torque wrench would go to the spring, and then the bolt wouldn't be set correctly. Is that true?

[notsoslimshady76]

If you get a multi-meter and OHM test the fuel injectors, I'm willing to bet some of them are bad. I don't remember the OHM value for a good one, but I'm sure someone will chime in. My 3300 has a terrible idle right now, and I've replaced almost everything under the sun except the injectors

[Pontiac6ksteawd]

Check your fuel pressure regulator, and your injectors. I dont have time to tell you how to check the FPR, but, ohm the injecters, 12.0 or better is good. 11.9 or less is bad.

[Zaloryan]

Okay, thanks, sounds like a plan! :) My manuals are also pointing to a bad EGR, could that be the case? (Sorry, I can't even find my EGR)

[Jr's3800]

There are a series of things we need to figure out and cover..

1) The Buick 3300 does not require any valve lash adjustment.. All you have to do is torque the pivot bolt to spec... Its a set it and forget it design...

2) the 89-93 3300's have no EGR Valve, so you don't have to worry about that..

3) When you had the heads off did you have them done? The ERG'lss engines 3300 and 3800 Vin N and Vin L tended to burn valves with mileage... A Compression test may help you reveal if thats an issue for you... I'm not so sure this is your issue but its a small possibility...

4) The Code 44 is for Lean exhaust..... This could be an O2 Propblem, a MAF problem or an ECM problem... You would have to trouble shoot this to know for certain

5) Your fuel pressure is exactly where it should be.... Thats a good thing for certain.. I believe the injectors on your car are either Multitech( spelling ) or Rochester.... On the Multitechs I have heard of Failures happening... But that does not mean your's are bad..

6) And just to be sure... You got all of the injector pigtails in the proper place? And the firing order is correct? <---- I have been here before...LOL.... Don't ask..:D

If there is anymore you can add or think of please let us know..:)

[LordDurock]

i know that doing the hydlic lifter on a gm 350 (every should work on one at some point lol there very ware)
you put the rods in and the rockers and tighten the the rocker arm ofthe ones that have the vaules always up tell you cna just barly spin the rod. then you bumb the motor and do the nexted ones and so on as so forth

[Zaloryan]

There are a series of things we need to figure out and cover..

3) When you had the heads off did you have them done? The ERG'lss engines 3300 and 3800 Vin N and Vin L tended to burn valves with mileage... A Compression test may help you reveal if thats an issue for you... I'm not so sure this is your issue but its a small possibility...

4) The Code 44 is for Lean exhaust..... This could be an O2 Propblem, a MAF problem or an ECM problem... You would have to trouble shoot this to know for certain

6) And just to be sure... You got all of the injector pigtails in the proper place? And the firing order is correct? <---- I have been here before...LOL.... Don't ask..:D

If there is anymore you can add or think of please let us know..:)


(3) Yeah, I had my heads done when I pulled them. My dad took them to a machine shop and had the springs done and they took a hair off the heads. None of the springs looked broken and I'm sure I'd have noticed when tightening the pivot bolt...

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m289/mitchythekid_2006/InstallationofIntakeManifoldgaskets.jpg

(4) I put in a new O2 sensor and MAF. I sure hope it's not my ECM... :(

(6) I've checked all my wiring. My injector pigtails can't get mixed up because of the amount of slack on each one prevents it from reaching more than one injector. (At least on the first pigtail out of the wiring tunnel)

I just checked the ohms on all my injectors. At RX10, all of my injectors registered 1.2 or 1.4 and multiplied by 10 makes, 12! Maybe the injectors are so borderlined on registering bad, they're about to give out? :confused:

I'm not sure how much more I know...

[Jr's3800]

Ok good... The heads were done so we can pretty much rule that one out..

You replaced the MAF and the O2..

If you were to blank the computer and start over would the Code 44 come back?

Sounds like the injectors are within range..

Hard to say what the issues is at this point.. This is the Time I'd be hooking up a Scan Tool to get a deeper look at what the ECM is seeing... I am almost at a loss.. at the fact that I can't just pop over and look at the car..

If you get it figured out let us know..

[LordDurock]

id the check hte injecetors wiring on more time this time when the cars running
pull one injector plug at a time and if for some restion on time it doesnt change anything somethings up
just a "quick" way to check

did you have the heads crack tested? just checking everything out here

[87Cutlass Ciera]

So does it just run poorly at idle? or does it do this all the time. Sounds a little bit like it's off time. My two cents :D

[turbokinetic]

Is there any chance the fuel pressure regulator is seeping fuel through the diaphragm and allowing it to dribble into the intake through the vacuum line? That would cause a rich condition. There should be NO FUEL in ANY of the lines under the hood except the fuel supply and return and the fuel rail.
Fuel pressure regulators can leak fuel through teh vacuum line and yet still function normally and regulate to the correct PSI.
Man I hate that about the rocker studs! Like JR said, they are machined to the correct height already and are only to be torqued. I used high-strength Loctite in additon to the torque, on my 3800.
Hope this works out for you, don't give up!

[Jr's3800]

Is there any chance the fuel pressure regulator is seeping fuel through the diaphragm and allowing it to dribble into the intake through the vacuum line? That would cause a rich condition. There should be NO FUEL in ANY of the lines under the hood except the fuel supply and return and the fuel rail.
Fuel pressure regulators can leak fuel through teh vacuum line and yet still function normally and regulate to the correct PSI.
Man I hate that about the rocker studs! Like JR said, they are machined to the correct height already and are only to be torqued. I used high-strength Loctite in additon to the torque, on my 3800.
Hope this works out for you, don't give up!

I agree with checking that fuel pressure regulator..

Also make absolutely sure you have no vac leaks as this will drive the ECM insane as the MAF will have a hard time metering the MASS if air coming into the intake

[Zaloryan]

Okay, does anyone know where my ECM is and how to check it? :o I don't have a trouble code reader, but I got a two-pronged tool from Autozone that hooks up to my OBD 1 connector and the check engine light flashes for the number. I can only read two-digit codes of course...not those 'P-insert digits here' codes.

I can't find my fuel pressure regulator either...so I can't do anything to it yet...

I guess I should mention this too: When the car was road-worthy, it would shake me half to death just going up a hill. I'd half to feather the throttle or just floor it to make it stop shaking. Drove me nuts. I replaced a torque strut in plain sight next to the radiator. Helped, but didn't fix it. Motor mounts? Extreme miss?

[Zaloryan]

I don't know if this did anything, but I ran Seafoam through the fuel system after I fixed the head gasket. Maybe it broke loose a bunch of crap and it's plugging something?

[turbokinetic]

See below for location of fuel pressure regulator. This is a 3800 but 3300 should be similar.
http://68.209.87.173/Temp/FPR.jpg
The ECM should be inside the dash behind the glove compartment. It sits on a bracket bolted to the inside of the firewall.

[turbokinetic]

Oops almost forgot to mention. These engines are famous for bucking under load due to bad ignition wires or coils. The symptom of only bucking when under low RPM/ high loads and being made smoother at high RPMs is classic of this symptom.
Ohm out the coils, all 3 should have similar resistance, and none should read OL. Then ohm out the wires. Each wire should have different resistance with the longest one being most resistance, and should NOT read OL. Should be around 6 to 20 K ohms IIRC (someone correct me if you know exact resistance).
If anything reads OL it will cause a miss, and/ or the bucking or "fishbite" symptom.
I doubt the Sea Foam did any damage, I use that all the time and it has never runied anything I've used it on.

[Electra_T_Type]

My car has almost the same symptom only under acceleration of any sort, should I take off the coils and ohm the out?

[Zaloryan]

Alright, thanks! :) Should I ohm out my wires anyway? They're brand new...BWD select...the most expensive wires from O'Reilly's...but I've disconnected them countless times. Would that affect them in performance?

[notsoslimshady76]

Unless they're not "snapped" on entirely, then it should be fine. Make sure they make a definitive click when you push them on

[Zaloryan]

Okay, thanks. This is definitely a categorized 'light restoration.' :D

[DynoDave]

Have you checked for vacuum leaks? I had a Chrysler that ran just like you are describing, and the upper plenum gasket was shot.Since you mentioned having the top end apart, it's possible that the gasket didn't seat properly. Easy to check with some throttle body cleaner. Just spray it along suspected areas with the engine running. If your idle changes, you've found your leak. A lean condition would explain the rough idle, heavy miss under load, and lean exhaust code set by the computer.

[bigjoe1015]

Flat lobe on the cam, or, double check for broken spring.

[Jr's3800]

The 3300 is a roller motor so the chances of a flat lobe are slim to none.... Also he just had the heads done.... And on this motor I think it would make a racket if he had a broken spring..

Zaloryan,

What have you ruled out thus far?

[Zaloryan]

The 3300 is a roller motor so the chances of a flat lobe are slim to none.... Also he just had the heads done.... And on this motor I think it would make a racket if he had a broken spring..

Zaloryan,

What have you ruled out thus far?

Well, let's see...lemme grab my receipts. Unfortunately, my philosphy on fixing my car is: "If it's replaced, it must work." :o

Now, to tally my receipts.

Torque Strut
Head Bolts
Head Gasket Set
MAF Sensor
Strainer/Fuel Pump/Locking Ring
Spark Plugs
Engine Belt
Seafoam
Ignition Wires
Air Filter
Oil Filter
Castrol Oil (High Mileage)
Tranny Fluid
Anti-Freeze

Head Work: Magniflux head for cracks
Resurface V6 Heads
R & R Seals

And to top it all off, let's not forget the airfreshener! :rolleyes:

Question on coils: If it can create the bucking and kicking my engine does on hills and such, could it also play into the crappy idle?

[Zaloryan]

By the way, I posted a link of my newly worked on heads. My fourth post down on the first page. I sure don't see a broken spring. Surely I'd have noticed when I put new studs on the rocker pivots.

[turbokinetic]

A bad coil can cause both bucking and erratic idle. What kind of resistance did you get on the coil secondaries?

[Zaloryan]

Perhaps it's my Idle Air Control Valve? Anybody's thoughts? Don't have a tool to Ohm my coils, so it may be a while...

[turbokinetic]

Radio shack carries ElCheapo multimeters for $10 to $20 by the way. Not a production-class instrument but for home use it will do great. I have one as a backup since I have had failures with Fluke 73 III meter twice.
I don't want to sound like a scratched record, but again - the coils are famous for going open and causing exactly the symptoms you describe. Could you pull off the coils and take them inside where you work and ohm them there?

[Zaloryan]

I really can't believe what happened. Went to pick up a new throttle body gasket because mine looked a tad undone. Pulled off the throttle body, and guess what? It was completely blown. :slap: I replaced coils #1 & 2, and Bessie runs like a dream! It's nice not to be shaken half to death and be holding up a lane of cars. :lol: I can't thank everyone here enough for their assistance! :bowrofl: I just can't believe the problem was so simple. Guess this is case closed?

[turbokinetic]

It's awesome you got her fixed! Glad to be of help. Share the knowlege and we all benefit!

[notsoslimshady76]

Awesome! Congrats