Would the 440-T4 (later 4T60-E) work with my 2.5?

[87Cutlass Ciera]

I'm not sure If I asked this or if it's been asked (I did search the forum, but really didn't see it) Ok so would a 440-T4 (I belive that is the transmission most 2.8 Cutlass Cieras used) work with my 2.5? I know (I've heard) the bellhosings are the same. If I'm also correct the 440-T4 is conrolled mainly by the TV cable, where as in 88 they swtiched to the 4T60-E which was electronically controlled. This would be awesome would it not? 4 speed should give better mileage should it not, especially if most of my driving is on the highway (and above 130km/h) so it also reduces wear and tear on the motor, cause well we see what happened to mine... This is an idea I've been toying with for a while and even more now that I have the motor out and I'm thinking of removing the 125C so I can replace the transmission/motor mounts (Passenger side motor mount is SHOT I can move it around, pick it up a little.) Thats my idea. I think it would be pretty sweet! :)

[86euro]

The 4t60-e wasn't phased in until the early 90's. I think the reason the 2.5 was never offered with the auto overdrive was because it just didn't have enough power to keep the car going down the road when in overdrive. It would always be kicking down into third and defeat the purpose of having it to begin with.

[Jr's3800]

The 60-E first hit production in 91...

Would the 440-T4 attach to the Tech 4, I'll bet it would...

But just like stated the Tech 4 may not have had enough power to tug the OD gear around town...

And it takes more power to drive the larger transmissions as well.. Its like going from a 3T40 to a 4T60...

The 1994-1998 Quad 4( Twin Cam ) 2.3-2.4 engines were all attached to the 4T60-E, But they did make 150-160 and had no problems with the 4T60-E.... But they had a gear ratio that the Tech 4 would never be happy with..

In later years GM started using a 4T40-E behind the Smaller engines.... The 4T40-E was atached to everything from the 2.2(2200) to the 3400 V6..

I don't think it would be worth the time to swap out the trans to a 440-T4 in the case of the Tech 4:)

[87Cutlass Ciera]

The 60-E first hit production in 91...

Would the 440-T4 attach to the Tech 4, I'll bet it would...

But just like stated the Tech 4 may not have had enough power to tug the OD gear around town...

And it takes more power to drive the larger transmissions as well.. Its like going from a 3T40 to a 4T60...

The 1994-1998 Quad 4( Twin Cam ) 2.3-2.4 engines were all attached to the 4T60-E, But they did make 150-160 and had no problems with the 4T60-E.... But they had a gear ratio that the Tech 4 would never be happy with..

In later years GM started using a 4T40-E behind the Smaller engines.... The 4T40-E was atached to everything from the 2.2(2200) to the 3400 V6..

I don't think it would be worth the time to swap out the trans to a 440-T4 in the case of the Tech 4:)

Awesome, this is what I wanted to know. Sorry for the misdate, I was reading off Wiki, I know better! Well while the motor is out, I think I'll still remove the transmission and replace all the mounts and I need to replace my TCC selonoid switch and Pressure switch. Clean up the engine bay, paint the engine and transmisson possibly. Lots of plans, but I need to get a working motor first! Thanks guys!
CRC

[turbokinetic]

It would connect to the bellhousing. You would need to get a numerically higher (geared lower) final drive ratio than your current 125C. If you refresh my memory on which model and year your car is, i can maybe tell what final drive you have now. (I will guess an 87 Ciera?)

The 440T4 has both a modulator and a TV cable. The modulator controls shift firmness and the TV controls shift timing.

You can adapt the wiring from the 125C to control the 440T4 lockup converter, which is mandatory that it works or the benefits of this transmission will be lost.

The first gear ratio in the 440 is geared down more than the 125C and your off-the-line acceleration would be better. I would recommend the 3.33 final drive and 1:1 chain ratio with the Iron Duke. Otherwise, 4th gear will overload the engine and keep it in PE mode and your fuel economy will suffer. And it will shift between 4th and 3rd back and forth on any small hill.

The 440T4 is a "man and a half" which will stand up to more than 300 HP with some modifications. This page shows my experiance doing this swap. http://home.hiwaay.net/~davida1/transaxl.htm

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Well this gives me new hope, although I have no experience with Transmissions, so how do you go about chaning gear ratios? I would probably have to take it to a transmission shop and then it would cost me an arm and a leg (I need my arm to play piano and my legs to run! :rofl: ) But yeah I like this idea alot! We should talk more about it! It's too bad you didn't have any pictures. Thanks!!

[turbokinetic]

Sorry I don't have any pictures of the 440T4 swap. It was almost a plug-and-play swap. There was one bracket that had to be re-drilled (maybe) but that bracket may have come with the 440T4 trans which came from the JY and could have been from a non A-Body car.

I had to change the CV shafts (one for sure maybe both) and use ones from a 440T4-equipped A-car.

The changing the final drive requires taking apart the transmission. However you could look for a transmission from certain models that would have this FD and chain ratio already in it. Both the final drive and the chain ratio multiply together to get the "true" final drive ratio. The "overall ratio" shown in the charts is for the transmission in 4th gear (overdrive) and it is the actual ratio of input (at the converter) to output (at the wheels) taking into account all factors in the transmission.

This document below shows what cars to look for at the salvage yard to get what you need.

Look for models with a 35-35 chain ratio (sprockets drive & driven), and a 3.33 final drive ratio. You will want to keep the same stall speed converter you have already to help maintain good aceleration and mileage.

If you do change the final drive, it is a straightforward swap, you only change the final drive components as a set. If you change the chain ratio, you have to replace the sprockets and the "oil scoop" near the driven sprocket. You would probably be going to a larger sprocket so you could cut off the long oil scoop that you already have for the small sprocket. As far as I know all chains are the same length.

http://68.209.87.173/Temp/440T4_transmission_specs_model_usage.pdf

[87Cutlass Ciera]

The changing the final drive requires taking apart the transmission. However you could look for a transmission from certain models that would have this FD and chain ratio already in it.

Ok I'm good with taking it apart, but the chart is a tad confusing. I can get my hands on an 86 Cutlass Ciera 2.8 with the 4spd trans. I was assuming that this was the 440-T4. So lets look ahead. I get that trans (from the 86). I keep the TC from the 125C or from the 440-T4?. Now I need to go to the Junkyard and find a car with the 3.33 final drive ratio. How do I find this (via the chart, but that is only one model year...) The Chain Ratio I would keep the same I'm assuming, as it hopefully is 35-35.
This sounds not too hard.

I had to change the CV shafts (one for sure maybe both) and use ones from a 440T4-equipped A-car.

So if I pick the whole car up (the 86) I would have to use the axles from it. Also would I have to change the Hub?

Ok if you can find any pics on the internet, let me know, I'm going to look and see what I can find, but some of you guys know some good sites!!
Thanks again!
CRC

[86euro]

The shaft that the shift arm bolts to is too short for use in '87-later cars.

[turbokinetic]

Hmmm If you scroll down that chart covers 85 to 1990?

Yes that would be a 440T4 in the car you describe. The transmissions have a code on them, it is the "model code" on the first column of the chart. It is on the tag riveted to the back of the transmission. You could write down all the models from the chart with the correct ratios, and carry a list.

If you decide to take apart the trans, it is not difficult but you will need to be extremely careful not to mix up the parts.

Unless you want to dismantle the clutch-packs, there are no special tools necessary to dismantle the trans to the final drive. You will need a PRK kit (paper gaskets and rubber seals kit) and a new filter. And will need a torque wrench.

If I was you I would keep your original converter, the 125C and 440T4 use the same style converter. This is what sets your stall speed, and if it is too high or low your car will not perform too shit-hot.

Not sure about the hubs. Would be a JA1 / JA2 thing. If you have same braking system it should interchange.

[turbokinetic]

The shaft that the shift arm bolts to is too short for use in '87-later cars.

Just out of curiousity what was the difference? Did the PRNDL switch change in 87? My car does not have any PRNDL switch on the transmission, it is in the console.

Another thing to look at is the VSS. The mechanical and electronic speedometer drives are interchangeable between the 440T4's. If you find a "great" transmission but it has the wrong one, you can just change the governor and the cap over the governor which contains either the speedometer drive gears or the VSS magnetic pickup.

[turbokinetic]

Here is where to look for the trans model ID....
http://68.209.87.173/Temp/transid.jpg

[86euro]

Just out of curiousity what was the difference? Did the PRNDL switch change in 87? My car does not have any PRNDL switch on the transmission, it is in the console.

Another thing to look at is the VSS. The mechanical and electronic speedometer drives are interchangeable between the 440T4's. If you find a "great" transmission but it has the wrong one, you can just change the governor and the cap over the governor which contains either the speedometer drive gears or the VSS magnetic pickup.

Yes, the switch changed in '87. When I put an '88 tranny in my '86, I noticed the later switch was thicker and had a different connector on it. It did not matter for my swap, but I placed the later switch on the earlier tranny, and the shaft was not long enough to bolt up the shift arm.

FWIW, I was told by the tranny shop I deal with that the 440t4 was improved just about every year it was in production. That's why I located an '88 tranny for my car. It was only $85 shipped to my work too.

[turbokinetic]

Yep they improved it alot. I have 3 manuals on it, the basic rebuild, and 2 update books. They are thicker than the original manual!

I guess the later PRNDL switch (and connector) could be swapped with the trans? I haven't paid any attention to that because my PRNDL switch is not on the tranny.

His car with the Duke will have better acceleration and mileage with this trans but I don't think he needs to worry about getting a "strong" transmission for "breakage" reasons!

[turbokinetic]

OK here is some basic info on the 440T4 that would be very helpful if you dismantle one to change the final drive. Includes check ball locations (they fall out before you can see where they went:bs: ) sprag hold/ overrun direction, overview exploded diagrams, hardware location and torque values, and final drive parts identification.

Please let me know if this is useful!
David

http://68.209.87.173/Temp/440T4_torques_ball_locations_misc.pdf

[BignastyGS]

I have a question (or two) about the tranny in my newest 86 GS. This car sat since 1995 and since then has only had 13 miles put on it before I got it.I put 3 more on since I had it. It slips in 3rd but runs great in the 12 as well as 4th. I looked at the trans fluid and its somewhat dirty. Can I expect to pull the pan off the tranny and see bad stuff? I was sorta hoping to maybe do a filter change and oil change and luck out.If I need to pull it to replace it,is there a good site with decent instructions? What is the best way to pull it? Out the bottom or top? I wish it would be something that a change of filter and oil could cure. I am trying to make it last until summer is over as I want to put an L67 in it. What's the consensus of my problem??

[turbokinetic]

Third gear slipping is a result of the "third clutch" slipping. If you pull the pan you can see no parts of the powertrain, however If anything has broken, the pieces will be in the pan or the filter. Break the filter apart and see if there are any pieces of a snapring in it as the snapring that retains this clutch can pop out and break up.

A slipping clutch usually requires a complete teardown but the parts needed to repair it are inexpensive.

I always pull the tranny and engine as an assembly, from above. Here is the procedure I use for my 1986 Century. I have a 60° motor and yours is a Buick motor so there could be some differences.

-Remove glove box, unplug harness at ECM and dash connector. Remove square bulkhead grommet (7 mm socket) and feed harness out to engine. Tie on top of engine as shown.
http://68.209.87.173/89_LeSabre/ext_asm_harness_1.jpg

-Unplug PRNDL switch at trans and disconnect shifter cable.

-Remove battery cables and other wiring connections.

-Remove hydraulic hoses at steering pump

-Remove torque strut, radiator, fan and associated items.

-Remove trans oil cooler lines at trans.

-Remove compressor w/o disconnecting any lines. Tie to radiator lower support.

-Remove 6 nuts holding powertrain to cradle (four 15 MM and two 13 MM) Remove damper at front trans mount if installed.

-Disconnect vac and heating water hoses at engine and tie back

-Remove 2 spring-bolts at exhaust downpipe

-"pop" both CV joints out of transmission. (will not completely disconnect at this stage.)

-Begin raising powertrain from engine compartment. Be careful not to pull apart CV joints. As powertrain raises, remove CV joints fully from transmission.

-Tilt powertrain; tipping pulleys up and front bank up to allow rear mount brackets to clear the brake cylinder. See below.

http://68.209.87.173/89_LeSabre/complete_2.jpg

-You will have it out in about 2 hours assuming you have a good lifting mechanism. I have a service truck with a crane on it which makes this very easy.

If you decide to pull it from below, you will need to support the engine from above and remove part of the subframe. Some will argue this is easier but in reality the chances of breaking something are much greater and you don't have the opportunity to see and inspect the hidden areas of the engine and engine bay.

I would not recommend pulling the transmission from below having done it both ways.

Hope this gives you some ideas!

David

[turbokinetic]

Changing the tranny oil will definately be a good first step to prolonging the life of the trans!

Might want to use some K&W TransX, too

What is an L67? I hate RPO codes.

Have you ever rebuilt a transmission before?

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok so I'm looking at the chart, I'm glad you pointed out that it scrolls down further, I don't know what I was doing! :eek3: Ok, so in 88 and 87 there are a few 2.8 Chevrolets with the 3.33 FD ratio and 35-35 Chain drive. I'm going to assume that this is the Celebrity. Would the trans out of the Olds not have the same 3.33 FDR and 35-35 chain drive? Seeing as how they're both using the same motor. If I find a trans with the ration and what not, I can just pick up the trans and not worry about changing the ratios? right?
I don't know but this got confusing all of a sudden haha!

[LordDurock]

nice going with taking the hole motor trany assemlbe out to gether. that how i do it it just works out better.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

And yes I agree with Lord, nice! I wish that my hommade A-frame would have been strong enough, that would have been an option to look at. Although I really was only looking to get the motor out at the time I got it out.

[LordDurock]

And yes I agree with Lord, nice! I wish that my hommade A-frame would have been strong enough, that would have been an option to look at. Although I really was only looking to get the motor out at the time I got it out.

lets see some picts of you A frame. i used me cherry picker and did my 4.3 out iwth trany. easyest way to so it did the same wit hte 2.5 i pulled to sell.
the trany only ways 125 pounds more

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok, sorry the pictures aren't any bigger, but you can have a little look. I didn't get any pictures of it over the olds.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/493000-493999/493335_56_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/493000-493999/493335_58_full.jpg
It's constructed out of the legs from an old wooden swingset, and just has two 2X4's running across the top. I first used it about 2 summers ago to haul the engine out of my Capri.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Hey guys, tredging up this post cause I didn't want to litter the forum with another new post. So I've got the Transmission Donor. 1986 Oldsmobile Cutlass Cruiser. 233000kms 2.8MPFI. So the questions that I have are... I know that this Transmission is going to work. I need to know from Turbokinetic if this Transmission is going to have the 3.33 final drive. I'm assuming it does.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2350000-2350999/2350324_134_full.jpg
Also my other question is (two question's actually) The Vaccum thing which controls shift firmness (The big thing in the picture) is attatched to the intake, can I do the same thing and attatch the line to the intake Manifold on my 2.5? And the TCC Switch has 4 lines coming from the connector where as mine only has 2. Turbokinetic said that it's an easy swap. Now that I'm ready to do it, we should talk some more about this!
CRC

[Buick_powa]

L67 is the GM Supercharged 3.8L 90degree v-6 big brother of the 3300

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok Guys so I've finally got everything ready to go. But as I'm taking the nuts off the hub, the axle nut on my hub is 30mm while the axle nut on the Station wagon with the donor transmission is over 32mm (don't know exactly how big it is as dad didn't have a socket larger than 32mm) So does this mean that the spline on the end of the axle on the Cruiser is larger than spline on the Ciera? If this is so that means I have to change hub assembly, and then that means I have JA2 brakes on the front and JA1 on the back, and that's a headache and I'm going to say the end to the trans swap. So I need the feedback soon please :) And if I can get hub assembly's with JA1 brakes (like mine) then I have to talk to Turbokinetic.
Thanks! CRC

[turbokinetic]

The spline in the transmission is the same, with JA1 or JA2 brakes. The only difference is the OUTER CV joint. The joints can be removed from the shaft so you can use your original ones from the old 125C shafts.

The transmission should have a "code" on it that will help with the wiring. You will not need to use all the wires in the 440T4 connector, just certain ones.

I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner - in the future e-mail me directly, this is my busy season and I only have limited time to visit here but I have to check my e-mail for work purposes!

Will look up the final drive ratio soon, don't have books with me. I'm sitting by the road waiting on a piece of machinery to get here for me to fix some hydraulic problems.

Later,
David

[pineridge]

Thought I would use this thread for my question also. Am finding a ton of great information from all of you on this Forum. Thanks!

I have a 93 Buick Century, 3.3 with a 3 speed automatic. Have a quote of $700 to repair a locked up torque convertor but am thinking I would prefer to put that towards a rebuilt 4 speed. Which version of the 4 speed would be appropriate (440T4, 4T60 or the 4T60E?. I seem to be finding conflicting information.

What issues am I facing? Would the wiring harness be compatible with the the appropriate 4-speed? If modifications are necessary, are they minor?

From my other reading on the forum, it looks like I would need a different PROM (only if the transmission is the 4T60-E)? Can I just look for one that is from a 3.3l with the transmission model that I install or will I need to be more specific than that? Is my best bet to get one from a dealer?

What about drive axles? If different ones are needed I assume I could get ones that would fit a 93 Century with the 4-speed transmission I install.

Anything else to consider?

Thanks!

[pineridge]

I discussed this with the guy at the transmission shop and he is looking in to most of these issues and will get back with me. He confirmed that the 4T60-E would not work as the transmission I currently have is the 125C (non-electronic). He is checking on drive axle lengths and wiring. The only thing we did not discuss was the PROM issue so would still value any of your input on that.

Thanks!

[notsoslimshady76]

The 4T60 (non E) will work with you car. Some GM cars had switched to the E version in 1993, but ours did not as far as I know.

You'll need:
the transmission, axles, shift cable (that runs inside to the car), possibly gauge cluster/Steering column (easier to select your new Overdrive gear).

You can easily get all that at the Junkyard, and possibly not need a transmission rebuild at all. Just look for a low mileage JY unit

[notsoslimshady76]

Oh and the 440T4 is the same as the 4T60

[pineridge]

Thanks for the input! So the PROM is not an issue with this setup? If so, is that because the transmission is hydraulically controlled verses electronically controlled through the Controller?

[notsoslimshady76]

I would still look for the ECM chip (not the whole ECM) for a 3.3L 4 speed in the junkyard. This way the engine doesn't freak out when its doing a lower RPM at a high speed. but I think temporary you can run it with your current ECM