Can I go swap a Distributor for Coil Packs?

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok I am sure I asked this before, I need to know it right now though, right quick! I can get an almost brand new 2.5 for my olds with under 10k on it!!! FOR 300 BUCKS!!! It was bought brand new to go in a 1984 Fiero. Now the only problem is is that it has a Distributor. I belive I asked If I could go from Coil Packs to Distributor, but can I go from Distributor to Coil Packs? God this would be awesome. the guy told me he's kept it in a dry garage and has kept it oild and such, I'm sorry but a whole motor for $300 and I could go pick it up becuase it's no more than 2 hours from my Uni, holy shit it's a dream come true for my olds!!
Ok Lemme know! I'm going to read over the 7 pages of posts on my other thread to see if there is anything there!
Chris

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok So I just read my old post. and a1veedubber told me that I can't go from Distributor to Coil packs because they changed the crank. This sucks! I need to get in touch with a GM dealer and then I need to get in touch with the GM mechanic from the day and see what he says.
Ok bed time :werd:

[LordDurock]

im not sure but that is a drema come true danm that a worth well over 700

but it had did so you sould just dump the coil packs but i woulnt

[86euro]

Have you been checking ebay? I remember seeing a NEW GM crate 2.5 a few years ago for $200. Stuff like that probably still pops up every now and then.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...go from Coil Packs to Distributor, but can I go from Distributor to Coil Packs?

If you look at 1984 and 1987 engines....the pulley setup is different, and location of power steering is different (and maybe alternator).....I've got both vehicles (85/87), but have not studied if mounting studs/etc would accommodate switching back/forth...for sure, power steering hoses would have to be re-adjusted. I suspect it could be done...but have not evaluated this yet.

I would have to double check motor mounts, but I think they are the same...meaning the engines should work in either vehicle.

On 87, the Mitchell Manual suggests they used a Crank sensor to "fire" the coil pack...the question is could you transfer your Crank Sensor into this 84 engine...in the right location?

Was there a Crank Sensor on your 87 engine??? Could you put it on this other engine???

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...Distributor to Coil packs...

If you can create a Crank Sensor, and use correct ECM/Eprom/wiring, then yes it will work.

Imho, there is nothing wrong with an electronic distributor....nothing....

IF it would warm up around here, I'd go take a look at my 87...if they did not leave a distributor hole in it...they you can't go from coil to dist....but I'd venture to say I could put a 85 engine with distrib in the 87...since I have all the wiring/ECM/.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...can't go from Distributor to Coil packs



General Motors DIS Ignition Control with MegaSquirt-II (http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_DIS.htm)


"All distributorless General Motors four-cylinder and V6 models starting in 1987 use a distributorless ignition system called the Direct Ignition System (DIS). This system uses a "waste spark" method of spark distribution. To understand the DIS system better, first read the HEI information above - much of it will apply to the GM DIS system.

Each cylinder is paired by a single coil with its opposing cylinder in the firing order (1&4, 2&3 on a four cylinder, 1&4, 2&5, 3&6 on a V6). This means one cylinder on its compression stroke fires simultaneously with its opposing cylinder on the exhaust stroke.
...
The DIS system includes:

* a coil pack (with one coil shared for every two cylinders),
* an ignition module,
* a crankshaft reluctor ring,
* a magnetic crankshaft sensor,
* and the MegaSquirt-II controller.

The magnetic crankshaft sensor protrudes through the engine block to within ~0.050" (~1mm) of the reluctor ring. The reluctor ring is a disk cast into the crankshaft, which has notches that a VR sensor locates to acts as a signal generator for the ignition timing.

Uh...change cranks maybe???

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Well it sounds like a lot of work, I'm going to try and get some pics from this guy and then I can try and see if it might actually work. I'm thinking of doing a rebuild on my 2.5... Thinking.

[a1veedubber]

The magnetic crankshaft sensor protrudes through the engine block to within ~0.050" (~1mm) of the reluctor ring. The reluctor ring is a disk cast into the crankshaft, which has notches that a VR sensor locates to acts as a signal generator for the ignition timing.
Uh...change cranks maybe???

This is what I was talking about when I said that the 87 & up motors use a different crankshaft. The crankshaft sensor mounts through the block at the same place that the distributor does on the 82-86 motors. Possibly you could change cranks but there could be so many other tiny internal & external differences that could pop up also. It would be much easier to get a later motor.
Also, the 84 Dukes do not have roller lifters like the later ones do IIRC. I would be all over that 84 motor for my 86 coupe if it was closer to me though :cool:

[a1veedubber]

A quick ebay search shows this:

An 88, would that work for 87?

It does have "make an offer". The same seller also has a reman 89 2.5 for sale....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1988-2-5-PONTIAC-151-CI-LONG-BLOCK-FWD-122010-P1331_W0QQitemZ110216945053QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m110216945053

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Well it sounds like a lot of work...of doing a rebuild on my 2.5... Thinking.

Rebuild - If you can access a few tools, doing a rebuild consumes some time, but is much cheaper...if block/head are OK.

Motor Exchange:

A. 1987 - Is there a distributor boss on this engine that has a plate over it? If so, could you open it up, and look inside to see if a gear can be seen. I'd like to know if GM left this in place so that a distributor could be placed in there...anyone know???



B. 1984 Motor - Mounting it, and strapping on your components (alternator, power steering, etc) is one big question. With it having a distributor, one needs to find out which ECM/eprom was used...and most likely, finding a wiring harness...along with sensor components used with that motor.

When I look thru ebay...1982-83 go together....1984 motor is by itself...1985-86 go together....and 86-87 appear to go together...if both of these motor shas reluctor on crank (87 does).

C. I'll assume both are TBI....let us assume the 1984 motor could be placed inside 1987 vehicle.

All that is needed is something that can do this:

crankshaft reluctor ring
magnetic crankshaft sensor

I saw on ebay a kent-moore J-41371 reluctor gear puller NEW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/kent-moore-J-41371-reluctor-gear-puller-NEW_W0QQitemZ180209430202QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 80209430202).

The question is, could a 82 tooth ( or so) reluctor be put on this 1984 Crank, inside timing cover or externally?

I noticed this on ebay also:

This crankshaft fits a 87-88 "U" engine . The forging numbers are 390 , 406 , 625.

NOTE: U ENGINE WITH RELUCTOR RING WITH 82 TOOTH GEAR - USED IN STD TRANSMISSION.
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-2-5-151-ENGINE-CRANKSHAFT-KIT-WITH-BEARINGS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33616QQihZ003Q QitemZ130076878764QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1VQQtrksidZ p1638Q2em118Q2el1247)

Apparently, they changed the number of teeth used for std and auto...but if it were possible to place over harmonic balancer a Reluctor Ring and mount a magnetic crankshaft sensor, then a 1984 could be installed....dam, I wonder if starter ring could be adapted?

Oh well, maybe horse feathers...if they didn't use that many teeth

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

An 88, would that work for 87?


According to my ebay search...negative....86-87 go together, according to one seller.

PONTIAC 2.5L ENGINE; 86-87 (151/2.5) REBUILT GM MOTOR
(http://cgi.ebay.com/PONTIAC-2-5L-ENGINE-86-87-151-2-5-REBUILT-GM-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ2481616985QQihZ020QQcategoryZ33615Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQc mdZViewItem)

but I also noticed a crank that fits 87-88...did GM flip-flop during these years...some vehicles had it, others didn't?

and 85-86 go together;

GM PONTIAC 2.5 LITER LONG BLOCK ENGINE SALE 85-86 (http://cgi.ebay.com/GM-PONTIAC-2-5-LITER-LONG-BLOCK-ENGINE-SALE-85-86_W0QQitemZ250050275327QQihZ015QQcategoryZ33615QQ rdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcm dZViewItem)

As noted, if your engine has the reluctor in it...you got to count teeth

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

The crankshaft sensor mounts through the block at the same place that the distributor does on the 82-86 motors.

Could you put a distributor in this hole? Or did they remove the cam gear to drive distrib?

[a1veedubber]

Here are pics of the backs of the 2.5's for sale at the OEM surplus site I posted in the other thread. The 85-86 one is for an N body so it does not have the oil filter attachment, but shows the distributor hole clearly.

http://www.oem-surplus.com/sarah/25grandam9575d.jpg


Here is the 88-90 one for A-bodies, the hole for the Crank sensor is in the same location, but the hole is much different. Anyone know that the hole is to the upper-left of the oil filter attachment area? Another sensor of some sort??

http://www.oem-surplus.com/sarah/25Lsiera9543e.jpg

[a1veedubber]

According to my ebay search...negative....86-87 go together, according to one seller.

PONTIAC 2.5L ENGINE; 86-87 (151/2.5) REBUILT GM MOTOR
(http://cgi.ebay.com/PONTIAC-2-5L-ENGINE-86-87-151-2-5-REBUILT-GM-MOTOR_W0QQitemZ2481616985QQihZ020QQcategoryZ33615Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQc mdZViewItem)

but I also noticed a crank that fits 87-88...did GM flip-flop during these years...some vehicles had it, others didn't?

and 85-86 go together;

GM PONTIAC 2.5 LITER LONG BLOCK ENGINE SALE 85-86 (http://cgi.ebay.com/GM-PONTIAC-2-5-LITER-LONG-BLOCK-ENGINE-SALE-85-86_W0QQitemZ250050275327QQihZ015QQcategoryZ33615QQ rdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcm dZViewItem)

As noted, if your engine has the reluctor in it...you got to count teeth


Both of these are for VIN U engines which apparently are different than the VIN R A-body ones in many ways! Look at the pics I posted above, none of the accessory bosses or filter locations are the same!

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Here are pics of the backs of the 2.5's for sale at the OEM surplus site I posted in the other thread. The 85-86 one is for an N body so it does not have the oil filter attachment, but shows the distributor hole clearly.

http://www.oem-surplus.com/sarah/25grandam9575d.jpg


Here is the 88-90 one for A-bodies, the hole for the Crank sensor is in the same location, but the hole is much different. Anyone know that the hole is to the upper-left of the oil filter attachment area? Another sensor of some sort??

http://www.oem-surplus.com/sarah/25Lsiera9543e.jpg

Ok so the bottom engine looks like mine. The hole next to the Oil filter, mine has a plate over it, I thought that was here the Distributor would go, but thinking about it, that wouldn't be it. I don't know what is there, I'll have to maybe open it up and have a look see. The hole in the middle of the engine under the pushrod cover is where the crank sensor goes I'm guessing? There is a sensor there on mine. but I don't know what it's for. How do you find all these motors? Ebay never turns anything up for me, and yeah. You're good!
Thanks
CRC

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

The hole next to the Oil filter, mine has a plate over it,


If true...I find it hard to believe there are sensor wires there...I would like to think the Reluctor is on Harmonic Balancer side of Crank...with a magnetic sensor close by there.

How about...what is down that hole??? Could you shove a distributor into it???

Years ago, on GM, the distributor's shaft was used to drive the OIL PUMP....well, if true here, then there might be a stub shaft in that hole which drives the oil pump via cam gear.

Something fishy about having a magnetic sensor in that hole:jawdrop:

[a1veedubber]

On my old 89 2.5 Euro the crank sensor was pretty much where the distributor is on my 86 2.5. See the shield shaped boss on the lower left in this picture with the circular hole on it? Thats where my crank sensor was. The coil-packs sat right on top of the sensor. Was a complete PITA to change with the engine in the car! IIRC the sensor was about 35 bucks new from NAPA.

http://www.oem-surplus.com/sarah/25Lsiera9543e.jpg

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

On my old 89 2.5 Euro the crank sensor was pretty much where the distributor is on my 86 2.5.

I have not examined my 87 engine, but on 85, I thought the distributor boss was located on Flywheel side...not Harmonic Balancer side.

In this picture...what is that?

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/englander23/Boss.jpg

[a1veedubber]

I have not examined my 87 engine, but on 85, I thought the distributor boss was located on Flywheel side...not Harmonic Balancer side.

In this picture...what is that?

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/englander23/Boss.jpg


That is the one thing that I don't know! BTW, by Flywheel side do you mean the end that bolts to the transmission, I've always just said the "Back" for that part & the "Front" for the part that has the HB and engine accessories. If thats the case, then the hole for the Crank sensor is def on the Flywheel side of the motor. The pic I posted is of the right ride of the engine. (the side that faces the firewall in our FWD applications)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

.
Flywheel side ===="Back"
.
"Front" ====HB and engine accessories

Oil Pump - It has to be driven via crankshaft, directly or indirectly via camshaft.

With the reluctor towards flywheel side of motor, my hunch is they setup this newer block to do either a (1) distributor or a (2)reluctor-magnetic pickup ignition system.

My guess is when you uncover that "distributor boss" on this block, you could oil prime this engine via removing some sort of stub shaft.

The oil pump has to be driven...logically, its been done via camshaft on many different motors...and since camshaft is on that side....I'll bet this motor can be setup with either ignition system (provided your accessories can clear the distributor).

So, what is in that hole...a stub shaft?

[87Cutlass Ciera]

Ok here's an engine I found on Rockauto, I see that there is a Distributor hole. So does this get covered by the coil packs? is that why I don't recall seeing it?
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2350000-2350999/2350324_96_full.jpg The cost on rockauto is about $1220 here's what they say about it. Also they gave me an option for an OHV, sounds like something they would have put in the Sunbirds. "" Pontiac built, FWD, roller lifters, trigger fire ignition., no pilot bushing, wide bolt holes, also fits RWD Fiero "" (this is the 2.5 for the olds) What is a pilot bushing?
Also I was looking at my options for a rebuild on that site as well. And there are a few different Timing gears I can get. Laminated, Steel, and Fiber. I would have to say Steel would be the best.
CRC

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Distributor hole


Quick Questions for different model year engines:

1. Motor-Mounts to Tranny - Will all of the FWD Iron Dukes interchange...physical dimensions the same for mounting aspects?

2. Accessories - Same question...I know there will be differences in power steering hose setups...but I have not checked front engine side clearances to see how much overhang from block there is.

If one and two are true, then via mating engine with electronics it came with, then it will work. But, going from 84 to 87 will require that mounting holes for accessories are verified.

3. Reluctor Count - That one ebay site was suggesting the number of teeth are different for Auto and Standard transmissions....if this is true, then a different eprom will have to be used...unless ECMs are different too.

>What is a pilot bushing?

Usually, this term is associated with a manual transmission....where transmission's input shaft seats within flywheel there is a pilot bushing....just a bushing where something else inserts into it.

PS: Take the head off of your engine first....inspect it....there may be a local rebuilder who could give you a better deal, if you don't want to take the time.

I think that if a motor has the same mounting setup as yours, it may work...but, you have to inspect to see if all accessories can mount up also...and see which ECM/eprom it used.

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

That is the one thing that I don't know!

I looked at my 1985 motor...and this boss is for oil pump...I doubt if it was used for a distributor setup in FWD vehicles...but you could prime the oil pump via this boss....it has a short stub in it that drives the oil pump.

Either way on Electronic vs Distributor setups....both would work...just need the ECM/eprom that came with motor....and double check wire loom setup.

[LordDurock]

Ok here's an engine I found on Rockauto, I see that there is a Distributor hole. So does this get covered by the coil packs? is that why I don't recall seeing it?
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2350000-2350999/2350324_96_full.jpg The cost on rockauto is about $1220 here's what they say about it. Also they gave me an option for an OHV, sounds like something they would have put in the Sunbirds. "" Pontiac built, FWD, roller lifters, trigger fire ignition., no pilot bushing, wide bolt holes, also fits RWD Fiero "" (this is the 2.5 for the olds) What is a pilot bushing?
Also I was looking at my options for a rebuild on that site as well. And there are a few different Timing gears I can get. Laminated, Steel, and Fiber. I would have to say Steel would be the best.
CRC

that hole does not get covered by the coil packs. it becomes a small hole 3/4inch and has 3 well spaced holes for bolts ofthe coil pact around it. in side the hole is the Cam shaft but it dost have a gear on it to drive the a dis.
this is on a 89 2.5 so i geuss that they changed it some ware a long the lines
and that thing 85 pointed out i have no idea because that not on mine either. and i havethe pan oil filter

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...1984 Fiero.

I saw a GM Replacement Engine Chart...it suggested 82-92 were same...and 85-88 were same for Iron Duke motor....but.

This suggests the Iron Duke block config is the same...so if the engines mounts hookup, along with transmission...then any conversion can be done...but, extra time may be involved in mounting accessories and setting up distributor setup.

But...having the electrical harness and ECM for that engine would be a must...they changed several times the ECM...did they change the wiring harness...one would have to examine the wires/pin assignment.

[87Cutlass Ciera]

85-88 were same for Iron Duke motor....but.

This suggests the Iron Duke block config is the same...so if the engines mounts hookup, along with transmission...then any conversion can be done...but, extra time may be involved in mounting accessories and setting up distributor setup.

But...having the electrical harness and ECM for that engine would be a must...they changed several times the ECM...did they change the wiring harness...one would have to examine the wires/pin assignment.

Ok so I have the harness and ECM for an engine with a distributor. I know where I can find an engine from an 87 Celeb with under 150000km and he only wants $400 and by the sounds of it, the timing gears were changed cause he says it doesn't make the usual Tech4 racket, so I'm going to probably pick that up, and I'm going to go Junk yard huntin to find a 440-T4, do the work that needs to be done to it for it to work with the Iron Duke, and hopefully before I go back to Uni in september have it all ready to go! But first things first. Gotta get the head of my Iron Duke! 4 more weeks!!

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

Gotta get the head of my Iron Duke! 4 more weeks!!


Yes Sir...see what the issue is first....and watch out for the Bad Rabbit (http://files.ww.com/files/43418.html).

[87Cutlass Ciera]

and watch out for the Bad Rabbit (http://files.ww.com/files/43418.html).

LMAO!!!! :kekeke::rofl::lol:
Thank you for that, that was a good way to start my day! :wave:

[LordDurock]

that hole does not get covered by the coil packs. it becomes a small hole 3/4inch and has 3 well spaced holes for bolts for the coil pack around it. in side the hole is the Cam shaft but it dost have a gear on it to drive the a dis.
this is on a 89 2.5 so i geuss that they changed it some ware a long the lines
and that thing above the oil filtter 85 pointed out i have no idea because that not on mine either. and i have the pan oil filter

fixed i could find the edit function