OEM Rollerbearing Lifters

[turbokinetic]

Just another of my crazy ideas. Today I got a set of OEM roller lifters, guides, guide retainer plate, and camshaft from a core 3800 V6. I don't beleive the cam will work because of the distributor drive gear (or lack thereof). I can get a roller cam with distributor drive gear reasonable, but the lifters are the expensive part so I want to use these.

I will have to modify the block to use OEM roller lifters. It does not have a place for the lifter guide retainer to bolt down.

I saw one picture of an older Buick V6 with 3800 lifters but the picture was too small to see the details of how the guide retainer was fastened.

Anyone seen this picture, or know someone who has done this? I can't find it again.

This applies to my 1984 3.0 which is about to have an "out of body experience" in the rebuild barn.

I've collected a used OEM-turbo crankshaft (steel) to bring the displacement up to 3.8, if that can be installed. The engine smokes now and I don't complely trust it after the bearing incident. It sat up too long. I can see visible cracks in the valveguide seals.

The cam and lifters came from the same JY where the car came from and I got a little more of the story today. Car had been sitting 5 years before it was sold to the salvage yard. Then it sat a year in the junkyard before I found it.

It's running too well to wreck the engine by pushing it too hard with an unknown oiling system.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

David

[86euro]

Are the roller lifters taller than the stockies? I would be concerned with oil actually getting to the lifters. Just a thought, as I have no idea, really.

[turbokinetic]

I don't think they are any taller between the bottom of the follower and the oil port. The top of the lifter is taller so the lifter guide has a place to ride.

The base cirle of the roller cam may be smaller, too. That will sit the lifter further down in the bore.

I may (if I have time) pull the engine tomorrow. Once it is pulled it'll be easy to check this out

[bigjoe1015]

If you use old lifters on a new cam, you will flatten the lobes on the new cam in just a few thousand miles. Used lifters can be reused with the same cam, as long as the lifters go on the SAME lobe that they came off of due to the wear pattern.

[turbokinetic]

Yes as a general rule used lifters can only be re-used on the cam from which they came, in the same positions from where they came; but this only applies to flat-tappet lifters, not rollers.

Also, a cam designed for roller lifters must only be used with roller lifters, and a flat-tappet cam must have flat lifters. The cam lobe profile is different roller vs. flat, the roller cam lobes are not tapered like flat-tappet cams, and the lobe hardening process is different.

Roller lifters can be re-used on a new / different (after internal cleaning and inspection of all parts) and do not have to be returned to the same position on the camshaft.

Having said that, my 60°V6 was put together with a mixed up set of flat-tappet lifters (had them sorted out and someone piled them in one box!!!!!!!!) and that engine has run for 100,000 miles. I am sure the chance of a near-term failure caused by mismatched used lifters would depend heavily on pre-ixisting wear, spring pressure and asembly lube / run-in after the mix up. In other words I got lucky.:lol:

The 3800 lifters I got this week will not work in this engine because they are too tall and the oil ports come above the lifter bores. I found the info I needed on another forum and it turns out I need 60°V6 lifters for this modification.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/engine-tech/221359-fwd-roller-non-roller-cam-parts-gn-motor-2.html

The 3800 cam will not work in this engine because the lifter bores spacing changed in 1989 and the lobes on the 3800 cam do not line up with the lifter bores in the 1984 block. The cam which will work in this application is an off the shelf Comp Cams part for the Buick GN engine. It is a roller-type cam with the proper lobe spacing and distributor drive gear.

Will keep the group posted as I fix this engine up!

Yesterday I tore my engine down completely. Many oil galleries were plugged from the sludge incident, and there was damage to the #5 bearing this time (not as bad as #4 last time though!). The #3 main bearing oil feed hole was partially plugged with some hard crud that had made it past the filter bypass.

The cam has 4 lobes failing, all in the vicinity of the 2 rod journals that were getting inadequate oil. Makes sense seeing how the cam gets lubricated by crankshaft throw-off lubrication.

Will post pictures of all parts next time I get home. Had to drive one state over for a class at work tomorrow!

Later,
David

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

1984 block.


BUICK 3.0 181CENTURY CIERA PISTON SET 496P .030
US $49.99

FEDERAL MOGUL Piston Set # 496P .030

These pistons fit the following engines:

BUICK

3.0L 181 OHV V6 1982-87 w/o MFI;LK9;2-5/64" 1-3/16" Ring Groove 1.802" CD .9393" Pin Dia Flat Head - 8.45:1 C R
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&category=33623&sspagename=STORE%3APROMOBOX%3AENDSOON&viewitem=&item=7908772952#GALLERY)

[turbokinetic]

Thanks for the info!! I have both motors fully torn down now, and the 3.0 and 3.8 have exactly the same block, except the bellhousing.

The pistons are visually the same, with the rods being the difference. 3.0 has much longer rods.

The 3.8 steel crank, 3.8 rods, and 3.8 pistons all work in the 3.0 block. I have made a test assembly and verified.

I will have to make a hybrid driveplate because the 3.8 steel crank has a large-pattern output flange. The question will be wether the offset can be taken up in the driveplate or will I need a spacer between the engine and trans bellhousings.

The new roller camshaft will work with the 60°V6 lifters, but the lift is so high that the valve guides will require milling down.

This project is getting more involved than I had originally wanted it to, but in the end this motor will be locomotive strong. Also I plan to expiriment with E85 fuel (107 octane) which will be a valuable larning experience. The raw materials for this fuel grow on the land that the machines I service are used on.

Since it was to be a project car from the start, it won't matter how long it takes to get it together.

David

[SCREECH]

I have both motors fully torn down now, and the 3.0 and 3.8 have exactly the same block, except the bellhousing.

What's different about the bellhousing of the 3.0 and the 3.8? The 3.0 has the FWD bellhousing pattern, does it not??

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...3.0 and 3.8 have exactly the same block, except the bellhousing.

3.0 use small block chevy bell housing....and 3.8 use 60°V6 bell housing setup?

[turbokinetic]

Actually, the 3.0 I have is from the 84 Century with transverse (left to right) FWD engine, has 125C tranny and "metric FWD" or "small chevy 60°V6" pattern.

The 3.8 I have is from a 79 Riviera, it has a THM325 transmission, with longitudinal mount (front to rear) engine and full-size BOP (buick, olds, pontiac) bellhousing.

The newer 3.8 transverse FWD engines have a the small bellhousing, but they have a different camshaft and front cover setup. The 3.0 was a transition model with the "old style" front cover, camshaft, oilpump, and disributor. Therefore all the Buick Turbo / Grand National performance items will fit. That is how I was able to get an off-the-shelf roller cam for this engine. The GN folks still provide a deand for parts for these motors.

I don't "know it all" about these motors and I am still learning!!! Will have a full writeup on it once it is done.

It was relatively stout as a 3.0 turbo with a wore out stock, flat-tapped camshaft. I am anxious to see how it runs with this roller cam, 3.8 liters of displacement, and moderately ported heads and manifold. Should burn some rubber!

David

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

...3.0...60°V6" pattern....3.8...full-size BOP (buick, olds, pontiac) bellhousing.


My gut feeling is you have a mis-match here....unless both have GM metric pattern..some rear-wheel drive vehicles might have had METRIC pattern...but I'm not familiar with this topic since I used same type.



List of GM bellhousing patterns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_bellhousing_patterns)

[85_Ciera_Rebuild]

newer 3.8 transverse FWD engines


I've got one out of a 1986 Olds that "lost oil" on rods/main bearings...but I threw it in a shed some years back...have no idea what shape it is in today, but the cylinders were excellent when I picthed it there....you could still see hone marks on 100,000 mile motor.

It would most likely cost too much to ship it...unless I could find a trucker going your way.

[Jr's3800]

A couple of Pics.... Not sure if it will help..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Jr3800/Engine%203800C/HPIM1243.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Jr3800/Engine%203800C/HPIM1245.jpg

This is from a 3800 Vin C 88-91.... This is a Tall Deck 3800