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View Full Version : How best to evaluate and undo any damage?.. "Depression hurts your car too"



Othermusketeer
05-08-2008, 04:47 PM
Nearly everyone will want to skip to "Current problem", but for those that want boring details that are only marginally related there is "Why the maintenance neglect" and "Automobile history". From reading as guests, it would seem most forums would unleash a torrent of flames at me for not keeping up on the maintenance. (I already due that to myself) I'd imagine it won't be as immature here, but I'm sure people will think poorly of me.

Sumarized questions:
* How can I determine if there is any serious (AKA expensive) damage to the vehicle?
* While I've got all of this dismantled, what other maintenance/repairs can I do to improve the car's health or prevent future problems?
* ...should I drop the "oil pan" to inspect if the oil pump and the screened intake part (sorry for not looking up the names) are damaged/clogged?

Why the maintenance neglect (skippable):
I've been dealing with depression (with unsuccessful suicide attempts in the past) for a while now, and with a household family member causing serious financial troubles in the house (as well as other problems) it certainly isn't getting any better. In such depression I become confused and forgetful as well as having zero motivation to do things: especially the most important things in life. This is where my car comes in. Along with my hygene and health, I've been neglecting my car's maintenance. I know there are things that need my attention and I keep telling myself that I have to do it today/tomorrow/etc, but I rarely get to it.
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Automobile history (can be skipped, but gives an idea of its early health):
A 1995 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera (sedan), 3.1L V6, Vin M. My mother purchased it in 2001 with ~37k miles from a giant dealership. Every time we took it in for the free scheduled maintenance that came with the 2 year warranty, they'd tell us that they repaired something (not covered under warranty, of course) that we knew was functioning when we brought it in. They were usually saftey or critical component that you couldn't drive without (so they "had to repair it") and you couldn't ask them to undo ("break") it and still drive home legally/functionally.

Around 2002, my mother had multiple accidents with the car, with the last one requiring a trip to the autoshop for the frontend damage (not just cometic). Unfortunately the guy was extremely crooked. Somehow, our trunk release mysteriously disappeared (the switch was no longer in the glovebox and the trunk no longer had the motor/switch). All the windows slowed then died with 6 months. A/C was warm and stopped working within months. ABS and check engine lights went on with a month. The radiator fan was cut and then "Jerry-rigged" with a heat probe and relay. I kept bugging her to either take it back to the shop or contact her insurance (the guy charged the insurance company thousands of dollars of work), but she never did, as other things were more important in her life (the insightful can add up all the clues for themselves). I couldn't take the car since it wasn't mine, and I had recently lost my license (thank you mother for removing my from your insurrance [illegal] but having me drive you everywhere). To this day, those lights remain on, since we haven't had a trustworthy place to take it to.

Shortly before the accident, I started doing the oil changes (because of their "invented extra repairs"), but it was more like every 3-5 months instead. As family problems, illnesses (myself) and later a death in the house took place, maintenance intervals from 2003-2004 became wider and wider spaced.

In late 2004, after my mother's near death and now weak health, the car became unused for the next two years. In May 2006 I regained my license and my mother gave me her car (~85k miles) as a birthday present (though sometimes she insists that its still hers ?!?). I did some maintenance on the long dormant car (filter, plugs, tires, checking the breaks, checking fluids, new battery, PCV valve [really, really nasty and jammed], driver's side window motor, etc). When I went to do the oil, I got a nasty surprise... The plug was locked on tight and the head was rounded and gnarled (apparently overtorqued by the shop that last did it when I was sick in 2004). Every garage I asked about it played dumb and said that it would require expensive work as there was no way to get the bolt off. At this time, finances were really tight. *sigh* So I had to do my own frequent partial oil changes (1-2 quarts of the 5). I wasn't happy with it, but the dishonest mechanics led me to believe that was the only option I could afford. As a note, earlier this year I was informed (*cue heavenly lights shining down from the clouds*) that there were special sockets to remove stripped bolts. I had finally managed to change the ink --- I mean oil --- completely.

With 2006 to now having stress to the point of several suicide attempts and breakdowns, the really, really, really needed oil changes still weren't hitting every 3 months (should have been every 2 weeks at that state) and any other maintenance was neglected. So you understand, my own health and hygiene was neglected (to bad consequence at times) as well. My driving was rarely for my own, but instead its my mother having me drive her to various doctors all over the county (and the adjacent ones). Despite the cars +2years of inactivity, the car just passed 100k.

Other events were me replacing an alternator that was overcharging. (That was freaky, seeing all the controlls go crazy every time that I touched the accelerator) My radiator plug mysteriously disappearing minutes after I drove from a doctor's office parking lot. (I pulled over [immediately] before it got too hot, and walked the 10 miles to the part shop and back.) My "A/C fan" also "died". I don't know if its the blower motor or the resistor (I'm guessing motor). When I had the money for it, the parts store refused to sell me anything unless I plopped the old one on the counter in front of them (for reference), despite telling them the exact item in their inventory that I wanted (and the specs of the car). *shrug* Not a problem, but a symptom. I'm not sure if the car is using 4th (OD), as the car "sounds" like its working hard (like a moderate acceleration, not like your "punching it" for a quick on ramp entry) at 60-70mph. There is no tachometer, and I normally can not hear then engine from the passenger cabin (excluding moderate and hard passing), but on the highway I can hear it. Without changing accelerator pressure (constant for +3min), it sometimes increases in RPM and accelerates for no apparent reason.
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Start of the Current problem(skippable):
The car just recently started getting "full" oil changes after a period of not so frequent partials (greedy mechanics kept saying there was no way to remove a rounded oil plug with expensive repair/replacements). About 8 weeks ago, a couple days after a change, I noticed yellow spots and smears on the oil dip stick. I didn't know about coolant in oil and what it looked like, so I thought it was some old caked on residues being loosened by the detergents that are supposedly in the oil. I decided to change the oil in a week or two since it was getting "dirty" so quick. Well, due to problems, I didn't get around to it. Within a week, I noticed the temp running a little high. Its normally at or below 1/2, and it was a tad above that (still below 2/3 and way below 3/4). After idling with the hood up, I noticed that the fan was turning on at 1/2 like usual, but rather at the slightly higher hot point. You should realise that the fan was "Jerry-rigged" by an autoshop to run on a heat probe and an "adjustable-trigger" relay. I turned the fan up a bit and everything seemed to be fine for a while. Every 6-10 days it would start running up to 3/4 and the overflow would be low/empty. Pulling over, adding to the overflow and allowing the engine to cool (while off) would usually correct the problem and I could continue driving without a problem. I kept telling myself to leak test the radiator and consider replacing the termostat, but I never got to it :(.

In the 6 weeks since the first "flecks of yellow" were seen, it happened a few times. But then on that 6th week, it suddenly went from normal 1/2 to very hot (near, but not at the top/max). Instead of finding a safe place to pull over, I immediately pulled the car over (luckily there was a commercial back alley there) and shut it off. There was not steaming thankfully, but the overflow was again empty. I had a gallon of bottled water with me, and filled the overflow. I waited 15-20 min (normal than the 10min in the past) before checking the temp gauge (on but not cranked). Even though the water had not circulated yet (it was off for one thing), the temp was down to 1/4. My family members were worried about their appointment, so I proceeded cautiously/gently onto the appointment (~10 miles round trip). Everything seemed fine, but I had a strong feeling that something was different this time.

Nearly home, as we stopped at Walgreens, the engine sounded "funny" as I parked the car. I felt a little sick; not just because of stressed induced IBS, but because it seemed to be an ominous foreshadowing. Glancing at the temp gauge it was little hot, but not much (short of 3/4). I topped off the the low, but not empty overflow and waited for my family to exit Walgreens. They didn't want to wait for me to tend to the car, so they they had gone in themselves... They came out +45min later, allowing the car plenty of time to cool. *sigh* Trying to start the car, I became very worried when it didn't want to turn over at first. (sounded like when a carburetor engine has a carburetor that is really dirty and clogged) Eventually getting it started, the RPM was erratic (normal to stalling speed). After a minute it settled down but still "didn't sound like itself". Since I was a mile or less from home and could not afford a tow truck, I gently/cautiously drove it home by the backstreets (residential). After letting it rest for an hour at home I popped the hood. There was still water, but there was massive amounts of the yellow stuff under the oil cap, on the PCV valve, and ... visible on the inside walls of the valve cover were caked on globs of the stuff as well. I immediately closed everything up and went online to research the problem.

Current problem:
With huge amounts of coolant sludge in the oil and disappearing coolant, and the unleaded vehicle not having an oil cooler, it comes down to blown head gasket (please, please, please be the problem) or a cracked head (I guess I would save on insurance bills).

I've replaced smaller things, alternators, brakes, water pumps, A/C compressors, window lift motors, etc. As long as I have instructions I don't have a problem (even if I work slowly and continually worry about the worst case). I can not afford to pay a (often proven as crooked [see above]) mechanic in the area.

The car has never pinged or knocked in its lifetime. The car has never overheated to steaming. Even when the radiator dumped out on the road several months ago, the vehicle was stopped before it hit "H". Before this, the car would run a little rough and noisy when first started (for 5 seconds to 2 minutes, depending how long it takes for the temp gauge to start moving), but not the noises usually associated with long term problems. When the car was idling crazy, I didn't pay attention if it was pinging. I'll have to listen when I eventually start it up.

How can I determine if there is any serious (AKA expensive) damage to the vehicle? If the unfortunate situation is that there is serious damage, it would be best to know before I use $150 worth of gaskets and fluids. I would not be able to afford mechanic work or +$400 parts. I imagine some checks/test would require running the engine, so I have not drained the oil or opened the engine (breaking the old gaskets in the process). I'm still in info gathering mode.

The car was not given proper maintenance schedule (really neglected at times) in the past couple years, and never had that great of fuel economy (Excluding the first few years in 2001-2002). While I've got all of this dismantled, what other maintenance/repairs can I do to improve the car's health or prevent future problems? (I already plan on changing oil, oil filter, plugs, plug cables, air filter, and PCV valve [I already have all of these])

There valve cover is PACKED with coolant sludge, and it had lousy maintenance the past couple years. This is already becoming more expensive than I can afford within a month, but should I drop the "oil pan" to inspect if the oil pump and the screened intake part (sorry for not looking up the names) are damaged/clogged? If they are, it would mean having the car sit for another month until I could afford the extra parts. I'll have to check the guides to see if I can even access that area without removing the engine. I hear some vehicles need to have their engines lifted first..
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Due to a family member's (household member's) ongoing actions I doubt I'll even have enough money to buy food for us (mother, sister, and myself), let alone afford the ~$150 for gaskets and fluids. I will apparently not be able to afford repairs until next month. I've heard about acids, formed by coolant sludge in the oil, damaging the bearings in parts of the engine. Would draining the oil (and leaving it empty until I can start repairs next month) be enough to prevent further damage?

Sorry about the length. I tried breaking it down, so you could read as little or as much detail as you want. I don't know if any of the little auto history details are relevant or not, for one thing. I hate incomplete information, so I tend to overexplain... Sorry.

dcjredline
05-08-2008, 06:36 PM
WOW you live in a SHADY ASS TOWN. I cant answer the internal engine questions you have so I will leave it for someone else.

What AUTOPARTS store wouldnt sell you something without having the original there! That sounds like CRAP to me. What if it was your only car and you needed new brake pads? Then how do you get the pads there? First thing I would do is MOVE personally that town is a freaking hell hole!

85_Ciera_Rebuild
05-08-2008, 07:58 PM
How can I determine if there is any serious (AKA expensive) damage to the vehicle?


I don't know this motor...but you pull the pan off....and check rod/main bearings, at least several of them.

You will need a torque wrench within the range of required torque on nuts/bolts...if say 50 Ft. lbs. for main bolts, get one from harbor freight like a 5 to 80 Ft. lbs range on say a 3/8" drive.

This will give an idea about how much damage has been done, if this is the case.

Techfizzle
05-08-2008, 08:17 PM
Oils can be driven a little longer then when said to change them, they do this because to prevent lazy people (Im one of them) from screwing there car up.

every 3,000 miles is an average made for plenty of cars, some motors can tolerate this more then others.

What happens when you drive past it?
The oil starts breaking down from being constanly swished around the engine, and starts becoming filled with tiny bits of metal and starts becoming thin.

If your engine has gotten HOT as a result, you might have some damage, alot if you have an aluminum head or block.

Also your oil filter can become clogged which is like a heart attack for the motor, no oil can get to the top of the motor, and it may seize.

After draining your old oil, inspect it for metal flakes, buy running a magnet around the oil, alot of flakes idicate alot of wear has happned.

Now if this is the same car you are working on, since you will be pulling the head off,
you might also want to pull your pistons out, and check the rings on them.

Also you should check the crankshaft, to make sure its not lobbed.
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Just My .02

mickstan_VR
05-08-2008, 09:01 PM
Personally, I think the motor is shot. Sure, it can be fixed, but where do you stop. Its had a hard life. And how much money in tools are you willing to purchase? Get a price on a junkyard replacement (used)engine. Probably about 4-500 bucks. Just replace the whole thing in one shot (along with a decent radiator) and be done with it. Then keep up on the maintenence.

Tuddi
05-08-2008, 10:06 PM
Get a price on a junkyard replacement (used)engine. Probably about 4-500 bucks. Just replace the whole thing in one shot (along with a decent radiator) and be done with it.


http://pullapart.com/Pricing/Main.aspx

6 CYL ENGINE $120.26

Horribly cheap, but one can get lucky.

Othermusketeer
05-09-2008, 01:28 AM
Horribly cheap, but one can get lucky.If I need to take the heads to a machine shop to know if they are damaged, why would I yank a used engine from a car thats been dead in a yard for years? If I can't "eyeball it", I might buy a damaged engine. I realise that if it turns out the current engine is damaged, that would be my cheapest (and therefor most likely to be able to afford) option, but to buy one preemptively may just give me an engine that is just as bad or worse when I don't need to take that risk just yet.

Since I can't test things myself, I think I would probably have to go with remanufactured parts when dealing with potentially undetectable broken parts. Wouldn't I?

And thanks to all those that have responded.

dcjredline
05-09-2008, 03:38 AM
If I need to take the heads to a machine shop to know if they are damaged, why would I yank a used engine from a car thats been dead in a yard for years? If I can't "eyeball it", I might buy a damaged engine. I realise that if it turns out the current engine is damaged, that would be my cheapest (and therefor most likely to be able to afford) option, but to buy one preemptively may just give me an engine that is just as bad or worse when I don't need to take that risk just yet.

Since I can't test things myself, I think I would probably have to go with remanufactured parts when dealing with potentially undetectable broken parts. Wouldn't I?

And thanks to all those that have responded.

Junk yards dont blindly sell you a part like an engine. They (good yards) have a 90day warranty on things such as this. Heck even the pick-n-pull I go to has a 30day. I am leaning with Jeff on this one another engine sounds to be in order and that is coming from someone (Jeff) who will save most anything so for him to say that is saying something.

EDIT: OMG I think I need to change my pants!! This is the pull-a-part in Cleveland!!! Its under construction but just look at the room there for cars!!! DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL!!!

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5476/yardinohiosp7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As compared to Gary's U-pull_it I go to here in NY

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9563/garyssg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

mickstan_VR
05-09-2008, 05:04 AM
Its unfortunatly the "luck of the draw" with a situation like this. The entire car has been neglected and worked on and owned by people who either don't know or don't care. You can replace the heads yourself at a significant cost, but what else is going on in that motor? I would guess that the main bearings are in bad shape, the cylinder walls are scored, and the cam and lifters are not in the greatest condition. From the story told, I would say the car does not have much life left in it. How long until that neglected transmission shoots craps? Or the fuel pump? Water pump? Or the injectors? Or the exhaust system or suspension starts falling apart? Neglect is a terrible thing. It will KILL a car.
I would put a 500 dollar engine(with all of the sensors) in it, get a used radiator, used tranny cooler and add it, a used a/c compressor(suck it down and refill with 134a) and take my chances. Go to pick'n'pull and scavenge all you can. Don't spend your money on new stuff unless you have to. The car is unfortunatly not really worth it anymore. Look for a radiator with no white corrosion on it. The inside should be clean. Get a compressor that is dry. No oil leakage, and preferably it still has some pressure in the lines when you take it apart. That means it doesn't leak. If they try to sell you a motor that has oil film or grunge caked all over it, thats no good either. If its TOO clean, that can be bad too. They probably sprayed the bad stuff off. It should be dry, but dusty and dirty, NOT wet from oil or coolant. and yes, your engine is notorious for the bad head gaskets. And intake gaskets. Again, luck of the draw. Look at the engine you get for evidence of headgasket replacement. If they've been replaced, you should be in good shape.
I have no idea of what your mecanical aptitude is so this might all be "over your head". Then again, you sound like you might have a handle on whats up here. Pulling an engine is not a big deal, you just need some tooling and common sense. It sounds daunting, but its not really. Just a lot of elbow grease. And some friends help won't hurt either!

mickstan_VR
05-09-2008, 05:09 AM
This is the pull-a-part in Cleveland!!!

As Lord Vader woud say....MOST impressive.....

notsoslimshady76
05-09-2008, 03:31 PM
As compared to Gary's U-pull_it I go to here in NY


Is there more than one Gary's? I only know of the one in Binghamton

Othermusketeer
05-10-2008, 03:44 AM
(edited version of a post in other thread too)

<Removed: text related to other thread>
I know better now, that a) never trust what someone (regardless of their background) says without looking it up, b) when anything unusual (no matter how small) happens with the car, at least search as guests, if not post questions about what could be going on (and if its benign). I knew better about some of the maintenance schedule, but when you are so depressed that you ignore your own health and hygiene (and have had suicide attempts) its hard to get things done.

Not knowing any better can have bad consequences, however the nature of not knowing is that you don't know there is something you should know better about. For example: Without knowing any better, horrible stomach pain that echoes to the back, accompanied by vomitting sounds like a stomach flu, right? Back in 2000 I went over a half of a year thinking I was getting recuring 24hr bugs every couple months. Its only when the vomiting of the last bout woudn't stop after 6hrs like before, that I went to the hospital. It was pancreatitus, which can eventually kill you.

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Thank you for your input everyone. You have all been more helpful than I would have imagined. If I have any questions, I now know where to ask. I will drain (oil sys and coolant sys), add oil and filter and "flush"/run it for a minute. After I buy or borrow a torque wrench I will open her up (above and below) to check out the insides to look for obvious damages. I'll close her up with the old gaskets for now (battery removed to avoid accidental starts), and as soon as I can afford it, I'll dismantle it, get the heads checked, buy new gaskets and reassemble. Warrantied junk yard engines are cheaper than I thought, but still a little out there. So it could be a last resort. I hopefully I can get lucky and have no damage, then I can focus on pampering the car and proper maintenance. Who knows; Maybe the distraction of working on the car will alleviate my stress/depression?