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Tonglebeak
08-16-2008, 11:44 PM
Just a quck question: is there an accessory position for our ignitions, or is key-on the only way to fire up the radio? I've tried turning the key back but cannot go further than the off position.

notsoslimshady76
08-17-2008, 12:02 AM
Try pushing in the key while you turn it. it should click back right behind the regular off position

Tonglebeak
08-17-2008, 12:09 AM
Been there done that. It just doesn't go anywhere.

CieraSL92
08-17-2008, 12:36 AM
lock cylinder binding up. Do you have another key to try it with?

dcjredline
08-17-2008, 02:42 AM
Many a cars have done this to me, Formula and STE are the most recent, get some powder graphite and give it a couple squirts, then run the cylinder through a couple cycles and try going back after a couple turns to start and back off!! Worked for my prolly 5 or 6 times. No one does any maintenance on their lock cylinders ( not many but me!!!) An oil change at 3k is not all the maintenance a vehicle needs!

86euro
08-17-2008, 03:22 AM
I've had several GM cars that the acc position did not work, it was because the cylinders simply were worn out. You could take the key out even with the car running, one of them could even start with NO KEY! BUT, you can turn the key to the ON position, but not quite and the radio will turn on and the windows will have power, but everything else will be turned off. It's a little tricky at first, but after some practice, it's not hard to do.

Tonglebeak
08-17-2008, 03:51 AM
I've had several GM cars that the acc position did not work, it was because the cylinders simply were worn out. You could take the key out even with the car running, one of them could even start with NO KEY! BUT, you can turn the key to the ON position, but not quite and the radio will turn on and the windows will have power, but everything else will be turned off. It's a little tricky at first, but after some practice, it's not hard to do.

Yeah, that's what I normally do, but I figured that couldn't have been the way GM intended since it's not exactly easy to do.

Dcj, I'll try that. If that doesn't work, is there a way to get a replacement cylinder without having to get a new key?

dcjredline
08-17-2008, 11:53 AM
Lock smith should be able to re-key new cylinder to old key. I would personally just use new keys that come with it though. Why wouldnt you? Get it from GM if you want it to say GM on it.

Tonglebeak
08-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Lock smith should be able to re-key new cylinder to old key. I would personally just use new keys that come with it though. Why wouldnt you? Get it from GM if you want it to say GM on it.

Because the keys I have now are original with the olds logo on them >_> <_<

86euro
08-17-2008, 03:04 PM
Whether you have a new one re-keyed or not, get it from GM. The aftermarket ones tend to stick, or not even turn at all. I couldn't drive my Celeb coupe for a week because of a cyl from NAPA.

Tonglebeak
08-17-2008, 04:34 PM
Alright. On a side note, my lock cylinder sticks out about 1/4 inch from the steering column, and you have to push it in to touch the steering column with it, and thus being able to turn it. Still sound like the lock cylinder is bad or does it need a new ignition assembly altogether?

And what about keys w/chips in them. I know they're expensive, but it's a nice anti-theft device, does not allow the car to run at all without a chipped key. Any decent ones out there that could be made to work with our cars (requiring modifications for our cars of course)?

Pontiac6ksteawd
08-17-2008, 07:58 PM
Wow, thats a interesting question, and can really only be answered one way..

The VATS (Vehicle Anti-Theft System) is a horrid system. The VATS modules are always going bad, and they are really expensive to get fixed.

So the answer is simply, yes it can be done. But unless you are glutton for punishment, dont waste your time or money. It would be cheaper to get a aftermarket alarm system.

Tonglebeak
08-20-2008, 03:56 AM
Anybody have a walkthrough regarding this? AZ's repair info is horrid regarding this issue, and I can't find my SM again -__-

CieraSL92
08-20-2008, 05:29 PM
Alright. On a side note, my lock cylinder sticks out about 1/4 inch from the steering column, and you have to push it in to touch the steering column with it, and thus being able to turn it.

Nothing to add on the VATS, except x2. My cylinder sticks out a quarter of an inch too, but I don't have to push it in to use the foward positions. I do have to push it in to get accessory though.

dagr8tim
08-20-2008, 06:31 PM
Because the keys I have now are original with the olds logo on them >_> <_<

You can find original key blanks. I bought a bunch of ford ones awhile back on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-1973-1977-1981-NOS-GM-Key-Blanks-Camaro-Trans-Am_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10076QQihZ005QQitemZ 150283637901QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-1974-1978-1982-NOS-GM-Key-Blanks-Camaro-Trans-Am_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10076QQihZ005QQitemZ 150283638005QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37.l1313&satitle=GM+Key+Blank&category0=

I'm considering ordering a set or two just because having non OEM keys drives me nuts.

As for VATS, Ford has PATS (passive anti theft system). Keys for my Grand Marquis are $25 a pop from the dealership. When I got the car, I only got one key. You can have up to 8 keys programmed, but you need atleast 2 to program additional ones using the car's ignition lock. I ended up paying $125 plus tax for 2 keys for my Grand Marquis. $25 a pop for the keys, and $75 to put the car on the machine to reset the PATS codes. The good news is that resetting the computer invalidated any other keys for my car that may be in existence. And if I lose a key now, it's only $25 and I can program it in the car (because I will still have 2 keys).

The chip in the keys are bad news. I knew a guy who had his car broken into and they destroyed the ignition cylinder and the most of the column trim on his Crown Vic. The dealership wanted over 2 grand to fix it. I replaced the cylinder with a non PATS cylinder meant for a police car, removed the PATS module, and replaced the trim from the junk yard for less than $200.

dcjredline
08-20-2008, 07:44 PM
Doesnt the PATS system talk to the computer? To shut off fuel? I guess not.

dagr8tim
08-20-2008, 07:45 PM
Doesnt the PATS system talk to the computer? To shut off fuel? I guess not.

I'm kind of fuzzy on the story. He may have replaced the ECU with a PI ECU. Which in addition to disabling the PATS, would have given him a performance bump.

Or he may have found a way to wire up the ignition to make the ECU think the PATS was working properly.

Tonglebeak
09-04-2008, 03:28 PM
I had a fun moment last night.

My ignition binded up in the run position X_X which led me to disconnecting the fuel pump to kill the car. Then I turned it to start and voila I was able to turn the key back to off.

It is SO TIME for a new lock cylinder.

I replaced the one in my girlfriend's caravan a little while ago, has worked fine the whole time, so I might just go with an AZ cheapo.

The only thing I did not like about it, was that the keys look really generic, and I get the feeling that they maybe made 40 unique keys for millions of cylinders. Is this true?

dcjredline
09-04-2008, 06:21 PM
DID YOU TRY THE GRAPHITE?! Come on man you should at least TRY IT. The dry stuff not the liquid.

Tonglebeak
09-05-2008, 01:18 AM
Nope, I'm just going to straight-up replace it due to it sticking out as well. And after looking at it some more, the cylinder wobbles. Bleh.

Tonglebeak
09-05-2008, 04:42 AM
Found this on ebay: should fit my ciera, at least, cross-referencing the numbers on AZ shows a match between teh 88 cavy's and 88 ciera's lock cylinders:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__1988-88-CAVALIER-New-Ignition-Switch-Lock-Cylinder-OEM_W0QQitemZ300067225493QQadnZCarQ20Q26Q20TruckQ2 0PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2865QQcmdZViewItem ?_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116

I just wanted the black one :P Should work just fine correct?

dcjredline
09-05-2008, 12:31 PM
I would ask the seller for the AC part #, then ask a dealer if that cylinder would fit your car. Just cause he says it fits the Cavi I wouldnt believe him. Your getting into a mess if you get to replacing this and find out its not the right one. Do some research NOW instead of being sorry later.

Tonglebeak
09-05-2008, 04:17 PM
Alright, good idea. You still work at AZ, right? What's your opinion on the lock cylinders taht they carry? Are those the type where one key works them all or something similar?

dcjredline
09-05-2008, 05:40 PM
They are good as far as I have seen. The new one will only work your ignition. There isnt an aftermarket one that will come that also opens your doors. Same with a Ford one it will only work the new ignition switch not your original doors. Need to get them re-keyed if you want that.

Tonglebeak
09-05-2008, 09:22 PM
Alright that's good. I'm just wondering about the keys...say you got a shipment of them. Does each lock cylinder have a unique key, or are many of the keys the same throughout each cylinder (sorta like, say 10 unique keys for a box of 1000 cylinders if you get what I mean).

dcjredline
09-05-2008, 10:22 PM
Know what you mean but have no idea about how many different keys tehy use. You would have to ask the company who makes them I would guess. We just sell them

CieraSL92
09-06-2008, 02:35 PM
(sorta like, say 10 unique keys for a box of 1000 cylinders if you get what I mean).

That would be very bad business practice no? Can't really imagine someone doing that.

Tonglebeak
09-06-2008, 06:26 PM
Only reason I think that is because you get a tag with the keys. If you happen to lose your keys, you can take the tag to a locksmith and they can make you a new key. That's why it sounds really generic to me.

brp2z
09-06-2008, 10:37 PM
the blazer locked on one day

Chanel locks fixed that

now it doesnt even need a key

lmao

dcjredline
09-07-2008, 01:55 AM
GM and every other manufacture have codes for their cars too. I got one with my 95 Civic, 03 Dakota, 05 Canyon, and 07 Caliber. Just call them with the code and proof of ownership they will make one.

Tonglebeak
09-07-2008, 02:05 AM
So your saying that there are many non-unique GM cylinders out there? And any locksmith can make a new GM key?

These things sound less and less secure everyday >:(

Pontiac6ksteawd
09-07-2008, 03:14 AM
From the factory, there are about 10,000 diferent key combos available for a certain groove of a key. So that makes roughly 80,000 diferent posible key cuts, until a new groove combo comes along. Even the aftermarket styles that are available at autozone still have to partake in that posible combo. But then you add in the door keys. So its now 160,000 key combos. 1/2 to get in the car, 1/2 to start the car. Its safer than you think.

dcjredline
09-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Yes a locksmith (Good one) can even make you a key for your GM. What did you think they did for a living? The lock for your front door of your house isnt MUCH different inside than the one on your car. I think there are only 4 or 5 types of locks anyway, but lots of different combinations.

mickstan_VR
09-07-2008, 01:48 PM
Thats not totally accurate. There are really only about 10 or 20 different keys for, say, an '88 celebrity. If you loose your door or ignition key, the locksmith can do 2 things. They could pull the cylinder(expensive) and cut a new key that is an exact fit, or they have a set of universal keys for that particular car line. One of those universal keys should work. It might not be an exact replica of the original key, but it works. Then they just make a copy of the universal and you have your new key. We had this problem at the car lot all of time. The locksmith would just come down with his pack of keys and try them until he found one that would work, then he would copy it. If nothing would work, then it was time to pull the cylinder.
I tried this out one night when I locked my keys in my car while it was running. I went back into the shop and got all of the spare GM keys I could find and started trying them until after about 10 mins. I got one that would open the door.
Cars are not really as secure as you think, but who carries around several dozen different keys besides a professional thief or a locksmith?

Tonglebeak
09-07-2008, 06:11 PM
Thats not totally accurate. There are really only about 10 or 20 different keys for, say, an '88 celebrity. If you loose your door or ignition key, the locksmith can do 2 things. They could pull the cylinder(expensive) and cut a new key that is an exact fit, or they have a set of universal keys for that particular car line. One of those universal keys should work. It might not be an exact replica of the original key, but it works. Then they just make a copy of the universal and you have your new key. We had this problem at the car lot all of time. The locksmith would just come down with his pack of keys and try them until he found one that would work, then he would copy it. If nothing would work, then it was time to pull the cylinder.
I tried this out one night when I locked my keys in my car while it was running. I went back into the shop and got all of the spare GM keys I could find and started trying them until after about 10 mins. I got one that would open the door.
Cars are not really as secure as you think, but who carries around several dozen different keys besides a professional thief or a locksmith?

Looks like it's time to go with aftermarket locks then >_>

mickstan_VR
09-07-2008, 10:51 PM
Its still a GM key and cylinder design. Aftermarket locks won't solve the issue. They're just cheap copies of the originals. No car is totally safe, if somebody wants in, they'll get in. Either gently, or with force.

Tonglebeak
09-08-2008, 02:30 AM
Its still a GM key and cylinder design.

Dammit.

I guess I should replace my windows with plexiglass, enshroud lock rods, install latch points on the corners of the b and c pillar, install alarm w/tilt sensor, and install drill-proof locks. Perhaps then it'd be secure :):rock:

Jathm
09-08-2008, 02:52 AM
Dammit.

I guess I should replace my windows with plexiglass, enshroud lock rods, install latch points on the corners of the b and c pillar, install alarm w/tilt sensor, and install drill-proof locks. Perhaps then it'd be secure :):rock:

I think you would also need poison gas dispensers, and electrified door handles to keep the burglars at bay.

dcjredline
09-08-2008, 12:20 PM
Take care of the alarm by getting under car and cutting battery cable, instead of trying the electrified handles then crowbar the trunk open. Walah. There is nothing that cant be counteracted. Like Jeff said if they want in then they will get in.

Tonglebeak
09-08-2008, 04:31 PM
Armored cable then. And install a sawed-off shotgun in the trunk, facing towards the outside....you see where I'm going with that. :)

CieraSL92
09-08-2008, 05:31 PM
Actually, weren't cieras the #1 stolen car in the united states at some point?

dcjredline
09-08-2008, 05:48 PM
Armored cable then. And install a sawed-off shotgun in the trunk, facing towards the outside....you see where I'm going with that. :)


Drain battery with drill bit and Jig saw through the floor boards then.

Jathm
09-08-2008, 08:11 PM
Drain battery with drill bit and Jig saw through the floor boards then.

I think at this point most burglars would give up and move on to a different car.

Anyways, make a hardened steel box for the battery and replace the floor with hardened steel and kevlar. you would also need thermite charges strategically placed so that if either system was being tampered with, the charges would incinerate whatever was was trying to get in.

dcjredline
09-09-2008, 02:27 AM
LOL! I know it was just fun trying to get around the security.

100 Gallons of dry ice sprayed at the car first then some sort of super acid to eat the roof to get to the $100 Kenwood radio!!! LOL

Jathm
09-09-2008, 03:16 AM
I think I would then have to genetically create some kind of super rodent that would be immune to extreme cold and would have a scaly acid resistant hide. They would be vicious and angry and would live in my car to protect my 100 dollar kenwood radio.

dcjredline
09-09-2008, 10:39 AM
Then you wouldnt be able to get in there either. BUT your radio would then be secure.

Tonglebeak
09-09-2008, 09:28 PM
Who uses Kenwood? Pioneer is where it's at ;)

dagr8tim
09-09-2008, 09:37 PM
Who uses Kenwood? Pioneer is where it's at ;)

I'm using a JVC deck I yanked out of my old Topaz before I got rid of it.

mickstan_VR
09-10-2008, 12:20 AM
uggghh, it still works after being in a Ford?

dagr8tim
09-10-2008, 12:28 AM
uggghh, it still works after being in a Ford?

It was about the only thing that still did when I got rid of the car. :lol:

Tonglebeak
06-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Well, today, after what nearly a year? The ignition was done for. Last night it had binded up, permanently. No amount of hammering/torque would undo it (I was also limited to how much the key itself could take).

So, I replaced it. Got the cylinder in, about to put everything back together (what a pain it was). Still wasn't able to turn the key backwards, so who knows at this point. I'll see what it does when I get it all back together

Tonglebeak
06-27-2009, 05:38 PM
Well fuck me up the ass with a tire iron. EVERY GODDAMN REPAIR I DO HAS SOME SORT OF CATCH.

Hopefully somoene can get back to me soon on this...I have pics that are caught up in email right now (they better get through soon).

In the column, there's a white tab with two metal prongs on it. It sits in a hole that has a black metal tab in it, and all of this is below the ignition cylinder. If I seat the tab, the owners lock kicks in, and I can't unlock it. The only way I can move the cylinder around again is by pulling the tab out. Any ideas? (until the pics come throug). One pic through:

Hole
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8375/holeb.jpg

Piece:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6084/piece.jpg

86euro
06-27-2009, 05:43 PM
I think that piece is just the contact for the key-in reminder buzzer.

Tonglebeak
06-27-2009, 06:10 PM
Pics posted at last post. Sorry about the crappy quality..

Tonglebeak
06-27-2009, 06:30 PM
I think that piece is just the contact for the key-in reminder buzzer.

Oh. Not too important, it never really had worked for me anyways unless I shoved the cylinder in all the way (the old one that is).

When I reattached the mounting screw for the cylinder, I had to give teh cylinder about a 1/4 gap between the column and the cylinder's collar (where you place your fingers). Is there something wrong with that or is it normal? The old one stuck out like that as well.

86euro
06-27-2009, 07:24 PM
It's supposed to stick out some, in order to be able to push it in and back for the acc position.

Tonglebeak
06-27-2009, 07:25 PM
Ok. Now about this piece that seems to lock up the cylinder entirely...any idea what the deal is with it? Is there some special way to put it in?

Tonglebeak
06-27-2009, 08:03 PM
Shoot me. I somehow got it all put back together. And now my horn wont' stop honking and my key chime won't shut up (even with the key out). God what'd I screw up this time...

Tonglebeak
06-27-2009, 09:18 PM
Horn part got figured out (my custom switch was shorting, electrical tape fixed that). The key buzzer part...well it's no longer part of my steering column.

Other than that, everything works great :) Accessory works, etc.

Anybody want an ignition cylinder with a key stuck in it to maybe play with? :P