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turbokinetic
04-14-2013, 09:02 PM
Hi all, meet Camilla. She's about to get some attention in the way of a transmission repair, new fuel pump, and turbo system! Some of you may remember Camilla as she used to belong to another member here in Florida. After her transmission started to show signs of needing a rebuild, he parked her and only started her every now and then. After a while, the fuel pump failed and she has been sleeping for the 2 or 3 years since. A few months past, I visited her previous owner and looked at her. Her new owner Chris (AVTechMan) had her shipped from Florida to Alabama for some work.


The transport driver pulling up at my barn. One lonely car left out of the load. Last stop before heading home for the driver.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(0).jpg

A little tree sap and mildew!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(3).jpg

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(8).jpg

The engine is a very rare early iron-head fuel injected 2.8V6. You don't see very many of these.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(9).jpg

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(10).jpg

After a little time with the pressure wash, the mildewed tree sap and underhood leafpile are things of the past!

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(16).jpg

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(17).jpg

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(12).jpg

The interior will need major work, but that's another day:

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(4).jpg

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(5).jpg

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(6).jpg

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(7).jpg

The first order of business will be the "awakening" of the 2.8 engine. Chris sent the new fuel pump, brake parts and a few other odds and ends to my local Advance Auto Parts store. Once I finish my other obligations, this will be first thing that gets worked on.

Once the car is running, I will test out the transmission and see what sort of problems there are. I was told the trans slips; however at this time it won't even hold in park. Never seen that one before honestly.

Stay tuned!

Sincerely,
David

turbokinetic
04-14-2013, 09:06 PM
Did I mention I really like the "lines" of these cars. They are classics for sure.

SilentWing
04-14-2013, 09:21 PM
Awesome! So this is the super secret project :) Luke had a car the other day at Mazda that wouldn't hold in park... had a grenaded differential inside the FWD transmission.... but then again that's a Mazda.

Can't wait to see the progress.... the interior doesn't look too terrible considering how long it sat in a humid environment. Are the seats and/or carpets destroyed?

turbokinetic
04-14-2013, 10:03 PM
Awesome! So this is the super secret project :) Luke had a car the other day at Mazda that wouldn't hold in park... had a grenaded differential inside the FWD transmission.... but then again that's a Mazda.

Can't wait to see the progress.... the interior doesn't look too terrible considering how long it sat in a humid environment. Are the seats and/or carpets destroyed?

Yep, this is the "secret" LOL!

The seats are not too bad, just everything will have to come out of the car to be cleaned. It's beyond what I want to do in-car.

I'm investigating the fuel pump issue now because the parts for my other project were incorrect. Again.

I fiured out the trans park issue. The shifter cable is wallowed out on the end, where it fits over the ball on the trans lever. Will need a bushing made for it and that will be easy fix.

David

SilentWing
04-15-2013, 12:47 AM
Does that mean it won't need a trans? I know you mentioned signs of needing a rebuild, I'll be curious as to what else you find.

So is the major interior project just cleaning it up? Or are there other gremlins to tackle there?

Yeah, incorrect parts are a PITA... can't tell you the amount of times we've run into that with the Toronado.

turbokinetic
04-15-2013, 01:37 AM
Does that mean it won't need a trans? I know you mentioned signs of needing a rebuild, I'll be curious as to what else you find.

So is the major interior project just cleaning it up? Or are there other gremlins to tackle there?

Yeah, incorrect parts are a PITA... can't tell you the amount of times we've run into that with the Toronado.

My mom's car is an 89 LeSabre. Basic C/H car, LN3 3800 440T4 trans. These ALL had same engine trans etc. I ordered a steering pump re-seal kit and a steering gear re-seal kit. What I got was for a REAR WHEEL DRIVE full-size Buick (I guess a Roadmaster?). The pump kit was similar but didn't have the o-rings for the reservoir; and the steering gear kit was for a steering BOX, not a RACK & PINION gear. Totally useless for this car.

I'm sure Camilla needs transmission overhaul. Steve, the previous owner stopped driving it because of the transmission slipping. I got the car started with brake cleaner today and there is a loud whining noise in the trans. Maybe plugged filter or low of trans oil.

Yep the interior is just a cleanup job AFAIK. Won't really know until I get it running, though. Got to get it in the barn somehow to change the pump.

Fer1973
04-15-2013, 03:23 AM
great project, i love coupes celebs, i know the car is in the best hands,there no doubt about it.

best regards.

turbokinetic
04-15-2013, 06:48 PM
great project, i love coupes celebs, i know the car is in the best hands,there no doubt about it.

best regards.

Thanks!

Today I'm working on the fuel pump situation. Pulled the car in the barn and dropped the tank. It had a half-tank of old fuel in it. The fuel was an alcohol blend so it drew water from the air. Nasty mess! To make a long story short, I had to pressure-wash the inside of the tank. While that's drying out, I'll post some pictures!

Not rusty at all. Nice Southern car! Jut a few nuts and squirrel nests.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4082.JPG

A little blast with the pressure washer and it's all good!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4083.JPG

¡Aye Caramba! that is one nasty fuel pump. Notice anything else strange? The strainer is on backwards. Just like my Turbo Sedan, someone changed the pump and they installed the strainer incorrectly. I'm sure that accelerated the demise of the original pump.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4084.JPG

Sender assembly cleaned up and modified for the new Airtex turbine pump.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4085.JPG

New pump and strainer in place. Note the orientation of the strainer!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4086.JPG

All clean inside after a little blasting with the pressure wash.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4088.JPG

Note to self: Plastic baffles are not pressure-washer-proof. :( It'll be ok though.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4089.JPG

Vacuum drying the water out of the tank.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4087.JPG

AVTechMan
04-15-2013, 07:26 PM
Lord, that was a NASTY old fuel pump! :eek3: No wonder it eventually failed, not to mention the strainer was incorrectly put on. That gas tank looks awesome, no rust of any kind, as compared to my wagon which had alot of scaled rust when I bought it. With that old alcohol in the old fuel and the drawn in moisture, it was good that it didn't rust out the inside of the tank, in which the particles can quickly clog the strainer and roast the pump.

With new fuel pump and strainer and a clean sender unit, it should be happily pumping fuel for years to come!

turbokinetic
04-15-2013, 08:52 PM
Pump in the tank, with new alcohol-compatible hose in place. The original setup had a filter with an o-ring fitting on one end and a hose barb on the other. I converted this one to use the normal filters with the o-ring fitting on each end.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4090.JPG

Hose routing so the pressure hose won't kink. The original hose was a molded hose.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4091.JPG

Another view.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/FuelPump/IMG_4092.JPG

And... she runs! The engine ran a little rough at first because of the injectors. But after 10 or 15 minutes of running, it smoothed out. The exhaust system is rotten to pieces and it sounds like a genuine Redneck Ride!

I was going to take a breif test drive, however the brakes are locking up and dragging. So no test drive for now. If I can get brakes done today there COULD be a video of driving it.

More to come...

turbokinetic
04-15-2013, 09:14 PM
For those who have sticking brakes, this may give you something to look at first!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slMb71EBGS0

David

babyivan
04-15-2013, 09:55 PM
For those who have sticking brakes, this may give you something to look at first!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slMb71EBGS0

David
I had a '89 grand marquis that did that, An easy job provided you use a flare wrench so as not to strip the line nuts. Also, spraying some PB blaster beforehand does a world of good.


As for the looks:

The ciera coupes, imho, are the best looking a-body coupes.
For some reason, the other ones (6000, celeb and century) look like the front doors are not long enough and the rear window/opera glass looks way too long because of that.
I wonder if the doors are any longer with the coupe over the 4 door. It's like an optical illusion, because they have to be but it sure doesn't appear that way.
But overall, I like the lines of a celebrity best, the flat up and down rear glass is what I love.

The RWD g-body coupes are my all time favorite GM coupes!
The Regal and the Cutlass Supreme tied for 1st, with the Monty right after that and then the Grand Prix.

Oh, and the Caprice/Impala, Delta 88 and Lesabre (not so much the Parisienne though) coupes of the 80's are also way cool!!!

The delta 88 and Lesabre coupes are worth mentioning because they are cool, but the RWD ones are the way to go!

One more thing, I seem to remember a lot of the Eurosports having the 2.8 MFI engines according to the trunk badging I used to see.

billkandi
04-15-2013, 10:08 PM
As far as the dragging brakes go, could that also be a cause for the notorious rear brake dragging A's are known for? I don't have any obvious signs of of a bad wheel cylinder, but I haven't broken it open yet. In any case, new hoses are on the menu front and back.

SilentWing
04-15-2013, 10:43 PM
Nicely done with the tank and the hoses. If it's being taken back up to Michigan and the tank isn't rusted you might want to consider putting some undercoating on it to keep the salt off of it, at least at the seams which tend to give us northerners the most trouble.... that is unless it's going to be a summer only car.

That's pretty interesting about the brakes too, I'm surprised I hadn't subscribed to your youtube channel earlier. Was the original plan for overhauling the brakes to replace the hoses as well? Or is that a new addition to your project?

AVTechMan
04-15-2013, 11:30 PM
Nicely done with the tank and the hoses. If it's being taken back up to Michigan and the tank isn't rusted you might want to consider putting some undercoating on it to keep the salt off of it, at least at the seams which tend to give us northerners the most trouble.... that is unless it's going to be a summer only car.

That's pretty interesting about the brakes too, I'm surprised I hadn't subscribed to your youtube channel earlier. Was the original plan for overhauling the brakes to replace the hoses as well? Or is that a new addition to your project?

This will be an spring through fall car only; it will not see any Michigan winters period I assure of that!

eurosport84
04-16-2013, 12:59 AM
She looks good David! Her older sister (my '84) misses her a little, but I'm glad she's getting the attention I couldn't give. :)

lemons bob
04-16-2013, 02:03 AM
I will say the abody tanks are actually pretty incredible. Those baffles seem to do work better than the majority of other cars out there, even cares that are supposed to be sporty. I don't think the aftermarket ones are as good, so definitely worth trying to save it.

turbokinetic
04-16-2013, 04:48 AM
She looks good David! Her older sister (my '84) misses her a little, but I'm glad she's getting the attention I couldn't give. :)

I know that feeling. Hopefully you'll get some inspiration from seeing this one get fixed up, and get that 84 in top shape! I remember seeing it when I visited y'all this winter.

Hopefully I can get the kinks worked out before long and move onto the turbo build.


.....That's pretty interesting about the brakes too, I'm surprised I hadn't subscribed to your youtube channel earlier. Was the original plan for overhauling the brakes to replace the hoses as well? Or is that a new addition to your project?

It was in the original plan. Based on what I've learned from restoring cars that have been "sleeping" for a very long time; I recommended the following parts to be replaced as a matter of course:

All 4 flexible hoses
Rear hardware
Rear shoes
Rear wheel cylinders

I got the brakes "almost" done today. I say almost because I didn't get the rear hoses yet. Everything else is good.

It was a good guess because as the video showed, the front left hose was plugged. The front right hose was not correct for the car and it was rubbing. The rear brakes..... woo they speak for themselves.....

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4097.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4099.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4100.JPG

Not only were they rusted up, leaking on the left side, and full of spider webs - the brake shoe pads were worn 90% almost to the metal!
Looks a little better with the new parts in place!

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4101.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4102.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4103.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4104.JPG

Also got a correct battery installed. One that is functional and the hood will close over. The ignition coil bracket is in place as is the battery disconnect switch. Looking more like a functional car again!

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4106.JPG

I hope to take a brief test-drive tomorrow, but there is a tire issue. One of the car's tires was blowed out, so another rim with a "good" tire was installed to load the car on the transport truck. Turns out, the lug spacing and hub diamater are not correct for this car and it is not in any way roadworthy. If I can get a used tire put on the correct rim tomorrow, then I can test drive it. Otherwise it's going to be parked in my NEW covered parking area while I work on other obligations.

Sincerely,
David

turbokinetic
04-16-2013, 04:54 AM
As far as the dragging brakes go, could that also be a cause for the notorious rear brake dragging A's are known for? I don't have any obvious signs of of a bad wheel cylinder, but I haven't broken it open yet. In any case, new hoses are on the menu front and back.

Bill, the rear wheel lockup is almost always a combination of a very small wheel cylinder leak, combined with an out-of-adjustment auto slack adjuster. Somehow these 2 things combine and cause the pads to be a little "sticky" and contact the drum at an incorrect angle; causing locking rear brake syndrome. It can be very hard to permanently correct that.

SilentWing
04-16-2013, 11:01 AM
This will be an spring through fall car only; it will not see any Michigan winters period I assure of that!

Glad to hear that :) I figured with the fact that you've sent it to David to work on you'll probably want to garage it through the winter.

David, looks like those rear brakes were a PITA. Glad to hear you had AVTechMan budget for the hoses already.

occupant
04-16-2013, 03:12 PM
Bill, the rear wheel lockup is almost always a combination of a very small wheel cylinder leak, combined with an out-of-adjustment auto slack adjuster. Somehow these 2 things combine and cause the pads to be a little "sticky" and contact the drum at an incorrect angle; causing locking rear brake syndrome. It can be very hard to permanently correct that.

Basically replacing everything and triple-checking operation before buttoning it up should do the trick.

My Dad's '86 Celebrity wagon did that when the rear brakes were cold, it would lock up the right rear if you blinked.

turbokinetic
04-16-2013, 08:07 PM
Basically replacing everything and triple-checking operation before buttoning it up should do the trick.

My Dad's '86 Celebrity wagon did that when the rear brakes were cold, it would lock up the right rear if you blinked.

Some things to watch for are:

- Wheel cylinder seeping. The brake dust should be a dry powdery black dust. If dust is clinging to any components, and has a soft, tacky feel (even if it doesn't look like the cylinder is wet) you have a small leak.

- Leading / trailing shoes swapped. The shoe with the SMALLER pad goes to the front, according to the manual.

- Bottom shoe return spring installed backwards. The spring has one long and one short hook. The long hook goes to the end with the auto slack adjuster ratchet wheel. The hook needs to come off the TOP of the spring. If not, the ratchet wheel will be blocked from turning by the spring. Once all parts are in the brake, the ratchet wheel should operate without touching ANYTHING BUT THE RATCHET ARM.

eurosport84
04-16-2013, 11:24 PM
David, Why the older style ignition coil?

turbokinetic
04-16-2013, 11:29 PM
David, Why the older style ignition coil?


The one on the car failed while it was sitting. Found it when I couldn't get it started after the fuel pump job.

Remember my T-Type with the same engine? I had a carburetor 2.8, and then the iron-head EFI engine. Both used that coil like Camilla had. I had multiple failures of them. That coil put me by the side of the road more than once. I have had very good success with the round coils. It's not really an older style, just a heavy duty style. Ford used them up into the 90's. Electrically, it's the same as the original. Just in a better package.

Also, I had the round coil here already, and it was "free" so to speak!

turbokinetic
04-16-2013, 11:30 PM
Here's a video; "Before the build..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyI4D8H_SJs

In the end, a comparison will be amusing. ;)

David

SilentWing
04-17-2013, 12:50 AM
Had to laugh at the ATV hauling ass down the road.... I could definitely hear the tires in the video. Also caught a glimpse of your new convertible when you were pulling back onto your property.

turbokinetic
04-17-2013, 01:25 AM
Had to laugh at the ATV hauling ass down the road.... I could definitely hear the tires in the video. Also caught a glimpse of your new convertible when you were pulling back onto your property.

Yep. Us country folks are very careful drivers. Our roads are shared with farm machinery and other non-registered vehicles. The police don't really bother anyone out here. There are just not any accidents or complaints, so they spend time elsewhere.

SilentWing
04-17-2013, 11:08 AM
Around here even our farm machinery have special farm equipment license plates if they go on the 'main' roadways. But then again, I don't live far enough west or south to really know how many people bother to buy those plates. I know we have off road titles for ATV's and such... and I've seen the farm plates stocked in our plate room at work, but they haven't sold since most of the area has been built up. It's nice to know there aren't any accidents out there because everyone has learned to actually pay attention.

Tyson
04-17-2013, 11:03 PM
Did I mention I really like the "lines" of these cars. They are classics for sure.
Totally agree. Congratulations on the new acquisition, and I'm glad that 85 Eurosport made it into good hands. I'll definitely be following this build.

Edit: Enjoyed that video too! Makes me miss driving my old Celebrity.

Duke George V
04-18-2013, 01:18 AM
A four speed?! That's gotta be rarer than the MFI 2.8 in '85!

turbokinetic
04-18-2013, 04:49 AM
Totally agree. Congratulations on the new acquisition, and I'm glad that 85 Eurosport made it into good hands. I'll definitely be following this build.

Edit: Enjoyed that video too! Makes me miss driving my old Celebrity.

Glad you enjoyed the video! By the way, remember this car belongs to Chris (AVTechMan). I'm just doing some work on it for him.



A four speed?! That's gotta be rarer than the MFI 2.8 in '85!

Yes, I think you're probably right! If I remember correctly 84 was the very first year of the 440T4 transmission. I am expecting this one to require major updating. It definately has some sort of majorly blown seals or totally wasted clutches in it.

Here's a mini-update for today! I replaced the broken interior door handle on the drivers door. It's just not safe to be unable to exit the car when desired. While in the door for that, I lubed the window regulator, lock mechanism, and lock actuator so all that is functioning smoothly now. Installed new shiney bubbly insulation sheet because the original paper dust barrier was lost.

Someone had tried twisting coat-hanger wire around the broken handle to fix it. Incredibly poor attempt at a repair.

Sincerely,
David

white89euro
04-21-2013, 03:55 AM
I love your project threads, David! Don't forget - I have a 1989 Celebrity that is 3/4 done. Here's a few pics from 2008 - that's how long it has been since I got anything done on the car.

Side view
http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u503/white89euro/101_1100_zpsf9e04a16.jpg

Recontructed lower quarter panel - car had light dent damage here
http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u503/white89euro/101_1113_zpsd6dd8bdb.jpg

Another side view - I really like the lines. I wish I had "before" pictures I could share.
http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u503/white89euro/101_1109_zpsc0359c6c.jpg

turbokinetic
04-21-2013, 01:00 PM
I love your project threads, David! Don't forget - I have a 1989 Celebrity that is 3/4 done. Here's a few pics from 2008 - that's how long it has been since I got anything done on the car.

Another side view - I really like the lines. I wish I had "before" pictures I could share.

That looks very straight. Reminds me of my 86 T-Type Century which is the same bright white.

What you got left to do on yours?

white89euro
04-21-2013, 11:24 PM
Hi David,

I'm not sure of the part, but it's a transmission related issue that causes the car to stall when coming to a stop. That's one thing. Being a Wisconsin car, there was a massive amount of rust to repair, though the floor boards were solid. So, I'll need to do a ton of rust-proofing. I have three more doors to fill up with about 1/2 inch of fiberglass resin, then rust proofing - it will keep the seams from re-rusting. I have to repaint the door jambs all around - my spray can paint was not compatible with overspray from a previous owner's (really bad) repaint job.

It needs a new headliner, some custom overhead console work (using a Dustbuster mini van console), installation of stereo, replacement vertical dash pad on RH passenger side, some seat repadding and reupholstry. Sound proofing and new (or cleaned up used) carpeting. Will probably install full guage pack to replace basic one).

Mechanically - not much needed. But will be installing Beretta rims and new tires. Exterior will need some black trim painted and some rubber trim installed.

How's that sound?

George

SilverBullet1990
04-22-2013, 12:23 AM
Hi David,

I'm not sure of the part, but it's a transmission related issue that causes the car to stall when coming to a stop.

Had this problem with both TH125 Celebrities I've owned - was the TCC solenoid.

turbokinetic
04-25-2013, 03:57 PM
OK a micro-update on Camilla - only one new picture. :)

As you know the Celebrity has been discontinued for more than 10 years. Hood pads are scarcer than hen's teeth (as my grandma would say) so I have been looking for one for this car since it got here.

Finally found one, but it was less than perfect. I mixed up a half-can of polyester resin with acetone and hardener, to make a very watery mix. I brushed this heavily onto the hood pad, to help re-bind the somewhat frayed material.

It worked. The pad is strong again but there are still visible defects.

But it's a HECK of a lot better than the old one!

Old one:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/As_Received/Camilla_before%20(9).JPG


New one:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_4212.JPG


Notice the mercury switch lamp still works. I had to make a bracket for this, because the later-model Celeb had a different type lamp mounted slightly different position. The cutout in the hood pad was in the wrong place.

AVTechMan
04-25-2013, 05:21 PM
That hood pad looks miles better than the old one (more like non-existent). Mercury switch lamp....those are rare to find too nowadays. A last look at the current engine bay before the conversion! :)

To Be Continued........

RIPBARNBURNER
04-25-2013, 09:50 PM
Great work so far. Is this the car you mentioned on the facebook? It looks so much better now!

turbokinetic
04-26-2013, 03:00 AM
Great work so far. Is this the car you mentioned on the facebook? It looks so much better now!

Yep I've mentioned it on FB, but also mentioned my 84 Ciera Convertible and some others - got way to many ongoing projects!

RIPBARNBURNER
04-26-2013, 10:38 AM
Well, I think I missed the 'vert on the facebook, but I thought the pic on the hauler looked familiar ;)

And you can never have too many projects. You can only have too little time.

white89euro
05-01-2013, 10:01 PM
Had this problem with both TH125 Celebrities I've owned - was the TCC solenoid.


Yep, that's it! I had forgotten the name of the part. I'll have to do a search on this site and see if I can find some repair tips on that. Thank you! George

SilverBullet1990
05-02-2013, 01:26 AM
Yep, that's it! I had forgotten the name of the part. I'll have to do a search on this site and see if I can find some repair tips on that. Thank you! George

I can't remember exactly what all my brother and I went through to replace it on the '88 Celebrity we had (been 9 years ago), but I do know it was accessible with the trans still in the car.

thesam1984
05-06-2013, 12:01 PM
My mom's car is an 89 LeSabre. Basic C/H car, LN3 3800 440T4 trans. These ALL had same engine trans etc. I ordered a steering pump re-seal kit and a steering gear re-seal kit. What I got was for a REAR WHEEL DRIVE full-size Buick (I guess a Roadmaster?). The pump kit was similar but didn't have the o-rings for the reservoir; and the steering gear kit was for a steering BOX, not a RACK & PINION gear. Totally useless for this car.

I'll bet you the mix up happened because in 89 the full size Estate Wagon was still around and Iit used to be called LeSabre... kind of a bone head move but that's why I hardly worry about cheaper prices on those sites unless its significantly cheaper... and for me it rarely is. But the repair usually can't wait for parts to be ordered, and I've noticed their computers don't get updated ( as well as there employees)

turbokinetic
05-06-2013, 01:42 PM
I'll bet you the mix up happened because in 89 the full size Estate Wagon was still around and Iit used to be called LeSabre... kind of a bone head move but that's why I hardly worry about cheaper prices on those sites unless its significantly cheaper... and for me it rarely is. But the repair usually can't wait for parts to be ordered, and I've noticed their computers don't get updated ( as well as there employees)

I see! Didn't know about the LeSabre Estate Wagon. Very interesting.

When I say I 'ordered' it, I should have been more specific. I got it at a store who did not stock it, and they ordered it from their warehouse. This store is a local place who is geared to professional mechanics and heavy equipment repair. I have been doing business with them for many years, thorughout my auto repair job, agriculture repair job, and now for all my hobby needs (since I work O/S now).

They still build custom air conditioner and power steering hoses and can get any parts for the very old (60's and 70's) cars.

I still trust them, but they're only as good as the computers. I should have opened the kits and looked at the instruction paper before I left the store.

Sincrely,
David

SilentWing
05-06-2013, 06:10 PM
I still trust them, but they're only as good as the computers.

Ain't that the truth! We've run into that one too many times ourselves, though mostly with the Toronado. Then again, we have found out that a certain cradle bushing made by Dorman for, of all things, a Cutlass supreme just happened to be the same for the Toronado. Can't take credit for that one though since it was the Reatta guys who mentioned it, we were just the test dummies since no one wanted to shell out the $ to try.

turbokinetic
05-06-2013, 08:44 PM
Just a short update today about Project Camilla:

Had a half day off work, and walked a salvage yard in Corpus Christi, Texas. Found a boost-control solenoid and set of 28 Lb injectors, from a sadly deceased 1995 Riviera with a supercharged 3800. These will work nicely for the 2.8 MPFI Turbo.

Otherwise, there wasn't much worth crowing about at this yard. It was a nice place - clean and the people were unusually friendly. But, they are mainly into the later-model vehicles. Every car was severely sun-baked (being south TX) and many had rust issues from the sea salt air.

Century7667
06-01-2013, 01:15 PM
For those who have sticking brakes, this may give you something to look at first!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slMb71EBGS0

David

David,

Never heard of that before, but my '01 S10 has an pull and uneven pad wear on one caliper. I replaced both calipers a couple of years ago, but the issue remains. I'm wondering if I might have a less severe hose issue in my case. Replacing the caliper assembly should have gotten rid of the problem. After seeing your video, I think I'll pull that wheel and inspect the hose!

Ken T.

turbokinetic
06-27-2013, 02:52 AM
Allright! Today I did a little work on Camila.

Turned on the battery disconnect switch and she started right up! The transmission has got no better by its self, but in spite of that I made one last spin around the block before the build.

I had planned to try to do the build in stages. But she's so sick at this point, I would just be wasting time. The radiator was rotten and full of rusty water. Out with that and the ratty wiring. In its place, I have a later-model radiator with right-side trans cooler. This is better because the trans is cooled by water that is on the cold end of the radiator.

New(er) stuff:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4192.JPG

Making room for removal of the powertrain, I pulled the A/C fan motor. It was full. So is the evaporator case. This will have to come out for cleaning when the engine is out.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4445.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4444.JPG

Now, the pile of parts is growing!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4448.JPG

Hope to (at least) get the powertrain out before I go back to work again. Stay tuned!

babyivan
06-27-2013, 06:27 PM
Damn, I shouldve installed the newer style rad on my car. The only issue for me would be finding the longer lines that connect to the rubber lines at the opposite end.

turbokinetic
06-27-2013, 07:21 PM
Damn, I shouldve installed the newer style rad on my car. The only issue for me would be finding the longer lines that connect to the rubber lines at the opposite end.

Ivan, I've found it's easiest to go to the salvage yard and buy the setup as a package. The radiator, all hardware, clips, rubbers, lines, etc. from a donor car.

If that's not an option, you can buy 5/16" steel brake line. Buy the ones with the IF type ends (Inverted SAE flare) and they will fit the radiator. You would still need to bubble flare the other end so the hose would have something to grip onto. But you could make the lines this way.

The newer cars have the low-profile fan motor. There is more clearance between this motor and the front of the engine. For a turbo build where there may be air pipes up there, it's the way to go! Also, keepin the motor away from the hot exhaust manifold is always a good thing.

Sincerely,
David

turbokinetic
06-28-2013, 01:32 AM
Well, today I tore down the transmission for Camilla. I took plenty of pictures - but left my camera at the barn!

Duke George V
06-28-2013, 04:29 AM
What overall final are you going to put in? I imagine it'll just be a 3.33? You can go all the way up to 3.73 (3.33, 33-37 chain, or is it 32-38?), but having experienced that in my old Celebrity wagon, I think it's a bit much. I lost over 3 mpg on the highway.

a1veedubber
06-28-2013, 04:53 AM
Just checking in to say that this thread is awesome. I need to finish getting my coupe back on the road!!

AVTechMan
06-28-2013, 07:46 AM
Well, today I tore down the transmission for Camilla. I took plenty of pictures - but left my camera at the barn!

Heh, so much for being the photographer for the Chicago Tribune! :D

So finally getting to the belly of the beast with the tranny. That A/C fan motor is pretty gunked up. I know the one in my diesel will have to be replaced too since its non-functional. Camilla may be sick but with some codeine Vicks 44 she'll be back to herself in no time.

turbokinetic
06-28-2013, 01:05 PM
Overall 3.33 trans ratio.

I have a trans out of an 87 or 88 A-body with 3.8 engine. That's what's getting built. The original trans is an 85 model. They were not good for perforance use. There are WAY too many updates needed just to get the 85 models properly rebuilt. It's cheaper to get another core from newer car than to try and rebuild the 85 model to hold up to boost.

turbokinetic
06-29-2013, 12:04 AM
Got some trans pictures of the teardown!

It's very important NOT to get dirt and grit into the transmission. This is true before, during, and after repairs. Got the Zep purple soap on it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4449.JPG

All clean!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4450.JPG

That side too!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4451.JPG

End pan remomved. A lot of black sludge. That's from clutch wear. This trans must have a lot of miles on it without any significant problems. Probably never been opened.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4452.JPG

Wiring looks fine.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4453.JPG

Some strange crystalized material. Never seen that before. I think this trans may have had water in the oil at some time.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4455.JPG

Fourth clutch is out. It had the one-disc clutch. This was OK for a natural aspirated 3.8 but any boosted engine needs the dual clutch. That's what I have for this one. Notice the nearly-stripped splines? This trans has had a very long life to get that level of wear! Also notice the chips mising of the clutch lining? That is from water contamination. The water flashes to steam when the clutch engages, then it pops the lining off the steel.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4456.JPG

Worn splines and hub.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4457.JPG

About 75% stripped! This hub is always replaced during a build. The new ones are hardened. Also the new clutch discs have a wider spline so they don't cut in like that.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4458.JPG

You can see the inner spline of the clutch from INSIDE the hub!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4459.JPG

This spring has seen a few too many shifts!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4460.JPG

And we have carnage! The shock and horror! Broken parts in the pan!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4461.JPG

There's the rest of that part. It's a thrust washer.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4462.JPG

The main reason the early model transmissions are not suitable for a performance build is the 2nd gear clutch. They used a 5-dosc clutch and it had a tendancy to lose pressure and slip. This one has the heavy duty 2dn clutch design. Note the 6 clutch discs and the tapered retainer?
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4463.JPG

Another upgraded part. These plastic bands are 'vespel' sealing rings. The old design had a cast-iron 'piston ring' that would allow some of the oil to escape, instead of apply the clutch.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4464.JPG

Clutches unpaked.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4465.JPG

Second clutch completely worn metal-to-metal. Courtesy of 3.8SFI Turbo engine with a non-built transmission.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4466.JPG

More pitted clutch lining.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4467.JPG

More pictures later!

turbokinetic
06-29-2013, 01:55 AM
Well, got good news / less-good-news! Good news is, I got some of the transmission sub-assemblies overhauled and ready to go back together. The less-good-news (for you guys) is.... I got called out to work so Camilla will be on hold for a while.

Second gear clutch basket with new piston seals ready for new clutch discs. I don't have the discs yet.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4468.JPG

Input and third clutch assembly with new seals and clutch discs installed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4469.JPG

The old piston seals. These get hard and brittle, then the transmission has delayed engagement and slipping problems.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4470.JPG

Another broken accumulator spring! GM's spring supplier must have had a bad month when this one was built. Actually this is a known problem with these transmissions. The kit comes with new springs, plus spacers that keep the springs from over-compressing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4471.JPG

New ones should be beter.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4472.JPG

This spacer protects the springs from over-compressing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4473.JPG

Reverse band. No idea what's so "maji" about it! I guess if it breaks, your Reverse 'magically' stops working. :(
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4474.JPG

Governors. This is connected to the final drive by a spiral gear. The faster the car goes, the faster the governor spins. The faster it spins, the higher the centrifugal force on the weights. This gives the transmission a rising hydraulic pressure signal as the speed rises. This is how it 'knows' when to shift.

The one on the LEFT is from this transmission. It has the speedometer drive gear. The governor top cap has the speedometer cable connection point. The other one is from a newer car. It has the electronic speed sensor instead of the speedometer gears. Notice the stripped off gear? This is because the thrust bearing was left out of the transmission. It let the governor ride up and bind on the cap. Then the plastic gear was the weak link. The round part between the green gear and the cap (on the left one) is the bearing that was left off the stripped one.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4476.JPG

The charge pump. It's very important to the transmission. It provides hydraulic pressure to operate the clutches, and it provides lubrication oil to the moving parts.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4477.JPG

This screen protects the valve body from any trash that gets past the filter.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4478.JPG

This board with a hole gives me a place to set it without breaking the screen.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4480.JPG

Cover off pump. Needs the rubber parts changed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4481.JPG

All clean and with new rubber parts.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4483.JPG

Ready to go!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4484.JPG

Most of the trans parts all cleaned and ready for re-assembly!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4485.JPG

Got to get the last few parts here before it goes back together!

occupant
06-29-2013, 02:45 PM
Looking very good, you caught all the broken bits and have everything organized and ready to go (as best as I can tell because in my mind, automatic transmissions are still full of puppies, unicorn heart strings, pixie ejaculates, and kinetic rainbow energy)

Did I see a Mitsubishi logo at the bottom of that giant yellow spring on the charge pump plate?

turbokinetic
06-29-2013, 02:58 PM
Looking very good, you caught all the broken bits and have everything organized and ready to go (as best as I can tell because in my mind, automatic transmissions are still full of puppies, unicorn heart strings, pixie ejaculates, and kinetic rainbow energy)

Did I see a Mitsubishi logo at the bottom of that giant yellow spring on the charge pump plate?

ROFLMAO!!!

Yes that does appear to be a Mitsubishi logo. Mitsubishi has many divisions other than their car line. Probably GM had the rotor and slide made by Mitsubishi. It's made by a powdered-metal process which, back in the early 80's was a brand-new technique.

Duke George V
06-29-2013, 05:36 PM
Looking very good, you caught all the broken bits and have everything organized and ready to go (as best as I can tell because in my mind, automatic transmissions are still full of puppies, unicorn heart strings, pixie ejaculates, and kinetic rainbow energy)
Voodoo and black magic, also. It's a wondrous place inside that aluminum case.

turbokinetic
06-29-2013, 05:45 PM
LOL. It's not that complicated! Just a bunch of mechanical parts packaged in a small area.

AVTechMan
06-29-2013, 06:36 PM
Actually, its very interesting in how all of the clutches and gears go together. That's why the auto tranny is so expensive to repair because alot of the smaller parts. And, by discovering when the smaller parts fail (like the clutches) its usually easier to know when the big problem occurs, like slipping and such.

I have more of a mechanical mind (more like MacGuyver lol) when it comes to taking things apart and putting them back together.

Century7667
06-29-2013, 06:37 PM
David,

If I keep reading your posts, I think I'll be able to rebuild my 4T60-E one of these days. Your notes gave me great insight as to what to look for while inspecting a transmission. Thanks, this is invaluable!

Ken T.

billkandi
06-29-2013, 06:59 PM
LOL. It's not that complicated! Just a bunch of mechanical parts packaged in a small area.

Right. Says the guy that helps build ships the size of islands.....

lemons bob
07-02-2013, 02:54 PM
supposedly this is all it is
http://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-an-automatic-transmission-works-517581894?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_faceboo k&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

babyivan
07-03-2013, 05:07 PM
Ivan, I've found it's easiest to go to the salvage yard and buy the setup as a package. The radiator, all hardware, clips, rubbers, lines, etc. from a donor car.

If that's not an option, you can buy 5/16" steel brake line. Buy the ones with the IF type ends (Inverted SAE flare) and they will fit the radiator. You would still need to bubble flare the other end so the hose would have something to grip onto. But you could make the lines this way.

The newer cars have the low-profile fan motor. There is more clearance between this motor and the front of the engine. For a turbo build where there may be air pipes up there, it's the way to go! Also, keepin the motor away from the hot exhaust manifold is always a good thing.

Sincerely,
David How about running more rubber hose instead to join my short oem metal lines on the other side?
Hayden makes this superior trans hose. They are pricey, but it's thick high quality stuff that holds pressure really good!

I don't see why that wouldnt work as well as fabbing up longer metal lines....
What do ya think?

turbokinetic
07-03-2013, 05:39 PM
How about running more rubber hose instead to join my short oem metal lines on the other side?
Hayden makes this superior trans hose. They are pricey, but it's thick high quality stuff that holds pressure really good!

I don't see why that wouldnt work as well as fabbing up longer metal lines....
What do ya think?

That would be fine. It's tricky to keep rubber hoses tied down and routed where you want them. Just so they don't end up rubbing on anything or dragging the road under the car. I would make sure they are tied down with tie-wraps, as well as being trapped behind the cooling fan mounting legs. The Hayden hose is good, and you can also use high pressure fuel injection hose for trans cooler use. It will resist trans oil.

turbokinetic
08-14-2013, 04:57 AM
OK got a small update on Project Camilla today!

While I was out of town, the (hopefully) last of the transmission parts came in.

That would be the lined and steel plates for the 2nd clutch.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4611.JPG

This set has thinner steel plates, and more plates for a stronger clutch. It has 7 plates. The original 1985 trans had 5.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4612.JPG

Then I started re-assembly of the transmission. First thing is the final drive. The old one was a high gear (large sun gear, left one) the new one is a 3.33 with hardened shaft (note the black color pinion cross shaft).

The ratio will give more torque multiplication in every gear, as well as put the power to the ground without over-stressing the transmission.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4614.JPG

But, when I started to re-assemble it, I found the entire final drive would go up and down. There is a bushing in the trans case that supports it. Apparently the car from which this trans came from had broken motor mounts. This let the right side CV shaft ride on the frame of the car. That put a tremendous upward pressure on the final drive. This is the result:

Bushing worn down to the steel:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4618.JPG

New and old bushings side-by-side
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4619.JPG

Old bushing installed on a final drive. Look at the huge gap!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4627.JPG

New bushing in case:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4620.JPG

Final drive in case. Nice and precise fit.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4623.JPG

Now, the remainder of the geartrain and clutches go in.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4621.JPG

Maybe tomorrow I can make some more progress!

SilentWing
08-14-2013, 11:06 AM
Glad to see the project is coming along. It's amazing how much those bushings were worn, makes you wonder how many shady trans shops would say 'meh, good enough'.

turbokinetic
08-14-2013, 04:07 PM
...... those bushings were worn, makes you wonder how many shady trans shops would say 'meh, good enough'.

I know it happens from time to time. Shop gets away with it if customer accepts car that sounds like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKf79oKCqVo) (even in Forward). :lol:

Not to mention the leaking because because the CV shaft moves up and down in the seal.

turbokinetic
08-14-2013, 11:56 PM
Got the trans 99% done! I say 99% and not 100% because there is one gasket missing, and the filter is wrong. :(

But that's not too serious of a hang-up.

Got the 35-35 ratio chain installed. It's a genuine Morse chain. Made in Canada (not the other "C" word!)
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4629.JPG

New 4th clutch plates. The new clutch has 2 plates, the original one had a single plate. This doubles the torque holding capacity of 4th. The iriginal design had a bad habit of wearing into the hub. The new ones have a different design spline tooth that won't do this.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4630.JPG

Installed:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4631.JPG

Bottom components installed..... except the darn filter!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4632.JPG

Pump shaft. This is a common and severe failure point in the 440T4 and 4T60E transmissions. The 4T65E does not have this design. The shaft starts to fail with rolling contact stress fatigue. After enough of the metal spalls away, the shaft wobbles. Then the pump fails and fills the valve body and torque converter with metal shavings. This is a wipeout and the transmission is non-rebuildable without complete replacement of pump, valvabody, and converter.

Old one showing early signs of failure, new shaft and new bearing:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4633.JPG

All together except for the end pan. The round gasket around the output shaft is missing. Don't know what happened to it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4634.JPG

Waiting for the filter and gasket. Got the carbon friction torque converter there. It's about 3000 RPM stall, if I remember.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4635.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_4636.JPG

Hope to get the powertrain out of the car soon.

AVTechMan
08-15-2013, 01:48 AM
Didn't have the correct filter? That sucks....I love those build pics, looks awesome! I need to learn about transmission rebuilds, if I can do that and engine rebuilds, I can do anything! :)

Great job David, looking forward to more soon. That's going to be a strong running tranny!

turbokinetic
08-15-2013, 02:04 AM
Didn't have the correct filter? That sucks....I love those build pics, looks awesome! I need to learn about transmission rebuilds, if I can do that and engine rebuilds, I can do anything! :)

Great job David, looking forward to more soon. That's going to be a strong running tranny!

Thanks. It has every chance to be strong. All the updates are in it and it was a 1988 model (stronger than the 84-86).

If you have a good strong mechanical background, and a mind oriented in details; you can do this kind of work. It comes with expirience, though. The first time may take a couple tries before it's 100% perfect. The only way to learn is to do it and fix it.

Working on powertrain removal now!

turbokinetic
08-15-2013, 03:18 AM
Alrighty! Made a royal mess of my barn floor because I forgot to drain the old oil out of the existing transmission but...... Engine is OUT!

All jacked up, mount bolts out, hoist connected:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4637.JPG

Moving up.... Now the driveshafts come out. This is where it got messy!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4638.JPG

All components clear now!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4639.JPG

Going to clear the car without lowering.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4640.JPG

Headed for the cart...
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4641.JPG

And it's landed!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4642.JPG

Needs a little pressure washing time!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4643.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4644.JPG

The engine bay is a little cruddy and oily. My fault for not draining the old trans oil first. :(
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4645.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4646.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4647.JPG

That was my goal for today. Accomplished!

AVTechMan
08-15-2013, 04:08 AM
Ewww Fram oil filter!! :( That steering rack is jacked up. A new reman one is definitely in order. Also noticed the O2 sensor looks like a Bosch one. Two seperate drive belts, hope those aren't too tough to remove.

You got some serious working space and equipment in your barn there, David. The kind that makes any vehicle work so much easier. One day I will have that space to work in!

turbokinetic
08-16-2013, 02:31 AM
I got started today by driving to town and getting the last of the transmission parts. Got the end pan gasket and the filter. This completes the transmission!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4648.JPG

It's time to start making a preliminary assembly of the engine's accessories. I always like to assemble everything ahead of time before getting the engine finally ready. This helps keep from damaging the engine by getting grinding grit in it, and having to re-do things many times after taking all the time to put it together 'for good.'

This car had a DA6 air conditioner compressor. These are failure prone, and don't work as well as the newer V5 systems. So I planned to exhcange the compressor for a V5. I salvaged the pulley off the extremely destroyed DA6 compressor. It is junk. It got so hot the label melted and bubbled! There is only one way for this to happen. Somehow one or more safety switches did not work.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4649.JPG

Installed an old V5 compressor (as a mock-up) with the vee-belt pulley. It allows for mocking up the system. The mounting bracket has a different offset for the V5, so some bushings had to be made. Also got the 140A CS144 alternator installed. The V5 compressor and the CS144 eliminate 2 common failure points on the early cars.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4651.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4652.JPG

Now to get the old manifold off. I just cut the old manifold studs with plasma torch. No point in fighting them. The entire exhaust system is rusted to pieces.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4653.JPG

The McLaren system rear manifold fit; but not without modification. It was designed for an aluminum-head engine. The manifold bolts spacing was different. So I had to slot the holes on the manifold. The bolts are temporary, too long and spaced with nuts for mock-up.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4655.JPG

Got the turbo and crossover installed:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4656.JPG

Now the upper downpipe, bracket, and the lower downpipe.
It is official. There's no turning back. The engine of Camilla is officially turbocharged.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4658.JPG

Now that I have a mockup of the engine layout, I can fine-tune a few of the brackets and other details. Once it's all sorted, everything can come off so the engine gets washed. Then I have to separate the engine and transmission. Once that's done, the new high-volume oilpump can go in, as well as inspecting the bearings.

While the oilpan is off the engine, I can drill the turbo oil return without worrying that metal chips stay in the oilpan.


Ewww Fram oil filter!! :( That steering rack is jacked up. A new reman one is definitely in order. Also noticed the O2 sensor looks like a Bosch one. Two seperate drive belts, hope those aren't too tough to remove.

It actually has 3 belts. One for the steering pump and waterpump, one for the alternator and waterpump (waterpump gets driven by 2 belts), and one belt for the compressor. The steering belt is a pain because of the location of the pump. The good news is, it isn't under a lot of stress and that one usually lasts a long time.

The oxygen sensor is junk. It was corroded. I got a new filter because will have to change the oil etc. when put in new oilpump.



You got some serious working space and equipment in your barn there, David. The kind that makes any vehicle work so much easier. One day I will have that space to work in!

Thanks, yes I'm fortunate to have a place like this. I used to do my projects in a dort-floor barn without doors. This is worlds ahead. Plus it's only 8 miles from my parents house.

AVTechMan
08-16-2013, 05:24 AM
Finally nice to see the transmission complete! Whew!

Nice to see the motor out of the car...hopefully the bearings once the oil pan is removed are in good shape. Would be a good idea to replace the CTS sensor in the thermostat housing too since everything is out.

Three belts...reminds me of the '84 Olds ID I used to have...the one that gave me the most problem was the PS belt since the pulley was off center and therefore wore out the alternator belt. Don't know how old those belts are but if they need replacement then best to do so while everything is out and easy to access.

That reminds me....since I will be ordering a better set of the oil pressure (electric) and boost gauge, would have to insure the proper sending units are in place for those as well. I admit i'm a bit addicted to gauges (driving semis with tons of gauges for everything you can think of)...lol.

Camilla is at last officially turbocharged! I like the sound of that!! :D

EDIT: With the original old manifold gone along with the corroded O2 sensor, I am guessing that the sensor won't be needed for the turbo system? Would be good if that was the case, since the O2 sensor location is somewhat a pain to reach with the motor in the car. My wagon has that same location with that sensor.

turbokinetic
08-17-2013, 01:38 AM
Finally nice to see the transmission complete! Whew!

Nice to see the motor out of the car...hopefully the bearings once the oil pan is removed are in good shape. Would be a good idea to replace the CTS sensor in the thermostat housing too since everything is out.

Well.... they are not 'failed' but there is visible corrosion. They are very cheap and it's easy to change them now. I did change the ones on my Ciera XC and happy that I did. Pictures later.


Three belts...reminds me of the '84 Olds ID I used to have...the one that gave me the most problem was the PS belt since the pulley was off center and therefore wore out the alternator belt. Don't know how old those belts are but if they need replacement then best to do so while everything is out and easy to access.

That reminds me....since I will be ordering a better set of the oil pressure (electric) and boost gauge, would have to insure the proper sending units are in place for those as well. I admit i'm a bit addicted to gauges (driving semis with tons of gauges for everything you can think of)...lol.

The A/C belt was missing and I pieced one together for a size gauge. It will have to be bought. Since the V5 compressor is slightly 'fatter' than the original; it needs a shorter belt. If not, it will be very close to the radiator. The shorter belt helps it stay tucked in close to the engine.

The oil pressure gauge sender will take the place of one of the currently-installed pressure switches. The boost guage has no sender, it just has a tube connected to the manifold. Air pressure actuates it.



Camilla is at last officially turbocharged! I like the sound of that!! :D

Me too!!! :rock:



EDIT: With the original old manifold gone along with the corroded O2 sensor, I am guessing that the sensor won't be needed for the turbo system? Would be good if that was the case, since the O2 sensor location is somewhat a pain to reach with the motor in the car. My wagon has that same location with that sensor.

There's a port on the turbo housing for the O2 sensor. If you want to run closed-loop you need a sensor. Without a catalytic converter or emissions system it is optional. The engine will have same power with or without it; however with it the system can adapt to differing fuel blends etc, and possibly get better milage.

Ok now for some pictures!

Today I wanted to see just how bad the compressor was. This will tel me how contaminated the condenser is.
It is the worst compressor I have ever seen.

If this is any omen - the shaft looks like this after I hammered it to get the seized compressor apart. It should take onl a light tap.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4670.JPG

Whoa! One broken off piston. Visible side-clearance around the others.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4663.JPG

Totally blown seals. Totally dry without any trace of oil.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4665.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4662.JPG

Nothing I can add that this picture doesn't say:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4666.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4668.JPG

Just slightly contaminated:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4669.JPG

This is the liquid line, between the condenser and the orifice tube. That is pieces of shredded Teflon compressor piston seals. They have gone all the way through the condender to the orifice tube. Will be getting another condenser coil at the JY. There is no point in trying to clean out the one on the car.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4672.JPG

Orifice tube. Totally packed. By te way, there was NO TRACE of oil on it. That oil you see is Liquid Wrench that I used to get the tube out of the evaporator fitting. It looks like this system probably had leaks, and they kept charging in refrigerant but never replaced the oil that was leaking out at the same time. Then eventually this was the result.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4674.JPG

Now for the engine!

First order of business was cleaning it up.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4679.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4677.JPG

Then, I could safely take off the oilpan without risking more contamination. The pan was not too dirty, but look at the nasty black rusty water that flowed out of the cooling system.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4681.JPG

The lower part of the cylinder bores don't look bad. Just a little oil residue. No scoring. All piston skirts still in place.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4682.JPG

I took off the #6 rod cap and inspected the bearing. It was in OK shape. There's no ongoing failure, however the bearing is corroded. I am sure this is from sitting so long without running, and with old oil in the engine. They should be changed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4684.JPG

The crankshaft journal is perfect.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4685.JPG

That's it for the time being. Going to be overseas for a while. Then this I can get back in this project!

AVTechMan
08-17-2013, 02:33 AM
There's a port on the turbo housing for the O2 sensor. If you want to run closed-loop you need a sensor. Without a catalytic converter or emissions system it is optional. The engine will have same power with or without it; however with it the system can adapt to differing fuel blends etc, and possibly get better milage.


Hmm, if the car will run fine without the O2 sensor, then there is no need to add one. Since the car is beyond 20+ years old there's no worry about any emissions test or the need for a cat. Could possibly just run a straight pipe, will save some time. May do away with the need for the EGR too.

eurosport84
08-17-2013, 03:04 AM
1. Fram oil filter: My brother-in-law (the one I re-po'ed this car from did that crap.) I told him I wanted to slap him for using that garbage!

2. A/C Compressor: The A/C never worked the whole time me, & then my brother-in-law owned this car. In fact the compressor locked up & the belt was cut off, when it was driven home from the auto auction before I bought it.

3. I'm glad you are progressing with it, but I'm sorry... I had no idea this thing had THAT MUCH stuff wrong with it.

turbokinetic
08-17-2013, 03:22 AM
Hmm, if the car will run fine without the O2 sensor, then there is no need to add one. Since the car is beyond 20+ years old there's no worry about any emissions test or the need for a cat. Could possibly just run a straight pipe, will save some time. May do away with the need for the EGR too.
Chris, sadly the entire exhaust system (including the cat) is rusted to nothing. I don't have the McLaren engine's EGR system so that can't go back on. We'll use the O2 sensor port for wideband tuning, then it will just be there for adapting to fuel blends and other variations. Everything's there for it so might as well use it.


1. Fram oil filter: My brother-in-law (the one I re-po'ed this car from did that crap.) I told him I wanted to slap him for using that garbage!

2. A/C Compressor: The A/C never worked the whole time me, & then my brother-in-law owned this car. In fact the compressor locked up & the belt was cut off, when it was driven home from the auto auction before I bought it.

3. I'm glad you are progressing with it, but I'm sorry... I had no idea this thing had THAT MUCH stuff wrong with it.

Steve, there are no hard feelings from me! I looked at this car in your yard in Florida and knew what I was getting into. It would have run fine for a long time like it was if the trans was repaired when it broke, and car was kept on the road. The years of sitting took a toll. Also, it will get pushed much harder than it ever has been - even when it was new. It may have double the power it ever had before. I can't risk not inspecting and making things 100%.

If it was one of my cars, I would fix it bit by bit. But, Chris lives hundreds of miles away and I don't want him to have issues popping up over and over. I'm just putting to use what I've learned. My Olympia car was a field car. It had problems for a year that I could have prevented. Including one burned up crankshaft. I just don't want to have these things happening, especially since this is somebody else's car.

The A/C being jacked up is just one of those things you find on old cars. When I got my T-Type running it had the same problem. These early systems were not very good even when new, and they did not usually survive any attempted R134A conversions.

I hope this does not discourage anyone from restoring other old cars! Just documenting what it's taking to get it up to par.

Sincerely,
David

AVTechMan
08-17-2013, 03:40 AM
1. Fram oil filter: My brother-in-law (the one I re-po'ed this car from did that crap.) I told him I wanted to slap him for using that garbage!

2. A/C Compressor: The A/C never worked the whole time me, & then my brother-in-law owned this car. In fact the compressor locked up & the belt was cut off, when it was driven home from the auto auction before I bought it.

3. I'm glad you are progressing with it, but I'm sorry... I had no idea this thing had THAT MUCH stuff wrong with it.

Hey Steve, don't worry about it! I like the fact that we are finding these things with the car, because I learned alot so far with David doing a tear-down and inspecting the critical things that will be vital to the car's operation. As I mentioned before, this car has a good home and I will ensure Camilla will be well cared for. :)



Chris, sadly the entire exhaust system (including the cat) is rusted to nothing. I don't have the McLaren engine's EGR system so that can't go back on. We'll use the O2 sensor port for wideband tuning, then it will just be there for adapting to fuel blends and other variations. Everything's there for it so might as well use it.

No problem! At least with it there it will benefit the motor in whatever fuel conditions it may encounter.


Steve, there are no hard feelings from me! I looked at this car in your yard in Florida and knew what I was getting into. It would have run fine for a long time like it was if the trans was repaired when it broke, and car was kept on the road. The years of sitting took a toll. Also, it will get pushed much harder than it ever has been - even when it was new. It may have double the power it ever had before. I can't risk not inspecting and making things 100%.

If it was one of my cars, I would fix it bit by bit. But, Chris lives hundreds of miles away and I don't want him to have issues popping up over and over. I'm just putting to use what I've learned. My Olympia car was a field car. It had problems for a year that I could have prevented. Including one burned up crankshaft. I just don't want to have these things happening, especially since this is somebody else's car.

The A/C being jacked up is just one of those things you find on old cars. When I got my T-Type running it had the same problem. These early systems were not very good even when new, and they did not usually survive any attempted R134A conversions.

I hope this does not discourage anyone from restoring other old cars! Just documenting what it's taking to get it up to par.

Sincerely,
David

Documenting this is a very good idea, and can be a great learning tool. I'm sure once Danielle is worked on may find issues with her as well. Even after all of this, its still better than a car payment anyday!

turbokinetic
10-28-2013, 02:47 AM
Been 2 months overseas, but now that I'm back home, there's a little progress to show!

I had just got the engine washed and taken the oilpan off before I had to leave. Today I got more of the parts removed, and got the timing set and water pump replaced.

Manifold top removed. Note the 2 items circled in blue? The one on the LEFT is the cold-start injector. The one on the right is the thermo-time switch. These were used by the original MAF system for startup enrichment. The thermo-time switch has a heating element and a thermostat. It is also inserted into the coolant passage. The system is wired to the starter circuit. When the starter is cranking the injector sprays extra fuel. The thermo-time switch will cut off the extra fuel after a few seconds. It heats its self internally to act as a timer. The hotter the coolant is, the shorter the time. When the engine is already hot, it won't spray any extra fuel. This was a throw-back to the old Bosch analog D-Jetronic systems. If I remember right, Bosch had a patent on a fuel injection system which used the main injectors to do cold-start enrichment. After Bosch patent expired, then GM stopped using this system and let the main injectors do the cold-start work. The new ECM for this car has cold-start fuel delivery through the main injectors. So all this is GONE. More room for useful parts like turbo water lines. :) One trick the guys do on the old cars is to tie the cold-start injector to a pressure switch. This lets the injector spray fuel whenever it's on boost. Every little bit of fuel helps, but it is a VERY small injector. I tried it on my T-Type, and couldn't really tell much difference. The 28 Lb injectors in this one will do more than the engine will ever need.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4842x.JPG

The original Rochester MPFI fuel rail.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4844.JPG

The engine had a dead cylinder due to a bad injector. Looks like some time in the past one got replaced with a mismatched one. These are going away and a set 28 Lb/Hr ones from an L67 going in.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4845.JPG


All the extra parts off.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4849.JPG

It's not sludged-up at all!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4850.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4851.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4852.JPG

Uh Oh! Here's a problem. The harmonic balancer is failing. That rubber is crumbling out!

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4854.JPG

Timing cover off. WOW at the worn timing chain.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4855.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4856.JPG

I think I found a reason for the wear. This is damage from a less-than-qualaified person changing the timing gear. They drove a CHISEL between the gear and the crankshaft. This raised a HUGE bur on the seating shoulder. This prevents the gear from seating all the way. Therefore the chain is not in alignment.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4857.JPG

After filing down the burs, the new gear has no gap behind it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4859.JPG

New chain is tight!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4861.JPG

Bolts torqued, with Loctite and damper in place.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4864.JPG

Timing housing all cleaned up, and turbocharger water return fitting installed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4863.JPG

Timing gear housing in place...
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4865.JPG

New ACDelco pump installed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4866.JPG

Turbo oil return hole drilled and tapped 3/8" NPT.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4867.JPG

Fitting glued in with green high-temp Loctite.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4868.JPG

Oil supply and return installed. The starting motor and oil filter etc. are there to make sure nothing is blocked or interfering.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4869.JPG

From the inside:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4870.JPG

Hope to make a little more progress tomorrow.

white89euro
10-28-2013, 03:36 AM
Hi Dave,

I really appreciate you taking the time to document your restoration efforts with all these photos. Someday you'll be making someone's job a lot easier since they'll have your documentation.

George

occupant
10-28-2013, 12:47 PM
This is awesome work right here. David, you are the antecedent in practice, but the perfect match spiritually, to the Sloppy Mechanics way of life. You get your speed and performance but do so by doing it right and doing it yourself, without cutting corners.

AVTechMan
10-28-2013, 06:37 PM
I like the fact that the original Rochester Fuel Rail is made here in the US of A!! :) The old timing chain definitely seen its last day...nice to see the new one in place, and the shiny new water pump!

David, do you know by chance the condition of the pistons? They should be in good shape im sure, but figured to ask while the engine is out of the car.

Loving the progress thusfar!

billkandi
10-28-2013, 09:42 PM
Glad you're back. Gets a bit slow sometimes without your write ups.

turbokinetic
10-29-2013, 05:14 AM
I like the fact that the original Rochester Fuel Rail is made here in the US of A!! :) The old timing chain definitely seen its last day...nice to see the new one in place, and the shiny new water pump!

David, do you know by chance the condition of the pistons? They should be in good shape im sure, but figured to ask while the engine is out of the car.

Loving the progress thusfar!

Thanks! I'm happy to be making progress! Just about to the detail part where it can get tedious. Looking at the bottom of the piston skirts and the bottom of the cylinder bores, it looks like the pistons are fine.

Speaking of progress, here is some more for today.

Got the rod bearings changed. The old one out:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4871.JPG

New insert in place.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4872.JPG

All in and torqued!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4873.JPG

Now to get rid of that cold-start injector hole in the m anifold. I had an old brake wheel cylinder piston which was turned down to fit in the hole.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4876.JPG

Then driven in with Loctite.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4877.JPG

Now the manifold gaskets in place, with the Right Stuff sealant on the ends.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4880.JPG

All installed and torqued...
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4883.JPG

Now, the plenum needs a fitting for the MAP sensor line. This is the most critical sensor for the speed-density fuel system so it gets its own line.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4884.JPG

Now on to the fuel rail. Away with the cruddy small injectors!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4886.JPG

With the 28 Lb/Hr inectors (from L67) installed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4887.JPG

Comparison of original one and a new one. No wonder the engine had a miss.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4888.JPG

Fits just like it was made to go there! :)
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4889.JPG

More external parts on:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4891.JPG

From the other side:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4892.JPG

I need to get the engine and trans back together and on the cart. This will allow me to finish the turbo exhaust and coolat / lube oil lines. I couldn't reach that point today because the new oil pump didn't come with a pickup, and the old one is different. So it's still on the stand. Hope to get that stuff tomorrow.

I plan to push the car out of barn and viciously attack the engine bay with pressure washer. It is very grimey. Also need to exchange the steering gear and clean out the A/C evap box.

I've got until the weekend to work on it. After that I have to go to Louisiana and help with a training class at work. Probably a week worth of stuff to do there!

turbokinetic
10-30-2013, 05:02 AM
Alrighty! Here goes with some more progress today!



First thing, I got the engine off the stand and put the new rear seal and driveplate on. That gives me the ability to connect the engine and transmission together. Therefore I can start making brackets and tubelines for the turbo.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4893.JPG

The rear manifold is special from the McLaren TGP system. It was from an aluminum head engine, and the bolt spacing is a little different. I had to slot the holes because the iron head engine has the bolt holes closer together. got the slotting done, and some foil tape gaskets in place.

Because the bolts are now very close to the manifold body, spacers are required. The original manifold for the iron head engine had similar design. I turned down some 1/4" pipe nipple pieces. This keeps the bolt heads from hitting the manifold, as well as allows a longer, more stretchy bolt to be used. This is a good design to keep it from working loose from the heat. In fact many of the diesel engines have spacers for this reason.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4896.JPG

Installed and tightened. Looks pretty good!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4897.JPG

Now on to the turbo mounting bracket. The McLaren TGP has an engine mount bracket on the end of the transmission. It had a place to fasten the crossover pipe. This car does not have this, so I have to make a bracket for the crossover. Problem is, I have one of those transmission cases without the tapped holes in it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4898.JPG

Nothing a little drilling and tapping can't fix!

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4899.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4900.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4901.JPG

And the bracket!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4902.JPG

Crossover and turbo housing:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4904.JPG

Now for some lube oil and coolant lines. I got the oil supply and coolant return finished. The oil return will have a section of high temp hose, which I don't have. The coolant supply tube connection will need a fitting. Those I hope to get tomorrow.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4906.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4907.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4908.JPG

I've still got to make some support brackets and install tubing clamps to suport the lines. They may vibrate and break otherwise. Also expecting the harmonic balancer and oil pump screen tomorrow. If things go well, I may get the exhaust wrapped and all turbo parts installed for the last time tomorrow.

turbokinetic
10-31-2013, 03:20 AM
Alright! Just a few pictures today but they represent a lot of work!

The harmonic balancer came in, so I got that installed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4909.JPG

Next part was the turbo actuator bracket. Also mounted the boost control solenoid on this bracket. That's the electrical part with all the hoses going to it. Keep it all together and concise! Put on a new 8 PSI actuator and got the linkage rod connected.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4910.JPG

After that, I took it all back apart and installed the exhaust system insulation. This will help the rest of the underhood parts survive without baking too much. Also the turbo oil and coolant lines are all connected now, and have their support brackets.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4912.JPG

The parts pile is getting smaller and the engine is getting larger!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4911.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4913.JPG

Just got to get the oil pump screen. Hopefully it arrives tomorrow! Then the oilpan gasket can go in and the engine will be "complete" once again.

The original dipstick tube wouldn't fit with the turbo downpipe. I installed an H-car one, but I am afraid it may interfere with the A/C dryer canister. Will have to see what happens during engine install. Also, the dispstick for this tube got mangled so I have to get another one at the junkyard.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4914.JPG

I would like to have the compressor on the engine before it goes back in the car, but I am waiting on the compressor repair kit. Hopefully that will arrive soon so I can get all parts on the engine before it goes in! It's so much easier to make things fit and work before the engine is in car.

If tomorrow no parts; I will probably try to get the car pushed out of the barn for engine bay washing.

AVTechMan
10-31-2013, 07:59 AM
This is so cool!! :thumbsup: This will make my Christmas gift for this year. It will also be the first time in my life in driving a supercharged car. Too bad winter is on the horizon, but Camilla will be waiting once next spring hits!

Engine is looking awesome, and soon going to have a new leash on life again.

occupant
10-31-2013, 12:34 PM
Tidy and correct as expected, can't wait to see it hooked up and embarrassing people out on Alabama's fine two lane highways and then up in Michigan (where it's close enough to visit)!

turbokinetic
10-31-2013, 01:34 PM
This is so cool!! :thumbsup: This will make my Christmas gift for this year. It will also be the first time in my life in driving a supercharged car. Too bad winter is on the horizon, but Camilla will be waiting once next spring hits!

Engine is looking awesome, and soon going to have a new leash on life again.

Thanks, it's coming together! Yeah you'll have winter time to get interior, audio, and possibly paint sorted.


Tidy and correct as expected, can't wait to see it hooked up and embarrassing people out on Alabama's fine two lane highways and then up in Michigan (where it's close enough to visit)!

LOL that is one of the fun things about these cars! Embarrassing the fartcan bubble cars so common on the roads today... :rock:

Just about to go get the oil pickup screen (hopefully).

AVTechMan
10-31-2013, 05:08 PM
Thanks, it's coming together! Yeah you'll have winter time to get interior, audio, and possibly paint sorted.



LOL that is one of the fun things about these cars! Embarrassing the fartcan bubble cars so common on the roads today... :rock:

Just about to go get the oil pickup screen (hopefully).

Yeah, I tend to see a couple 'fartcars' here on occasion. Wait till they see an 'old timer' smoke them LOL.

I'm going to try to work on getting a new radio, dash kit and speakers for Camilla hopefully before my vacation, so that I can have something to listen to in the car. Driving long distance with no radio gets boring fast lol. Just need to know the speaker size of the rear and front.

turbokinetic
10-31-2013, 08:12 PM
..... Just need to know the speaker size of the rear and front.

You should probably post this as a thread on the Interior forum. I beleive the rear are 6x9, but lots of the Celebrity details are different from the Century and Ciera which I am familiar with. I bet some folks have installed really good speakers and can recommend something.

turbokinetic
11-01-2013, 02:56 AM
OK for today's update!

Got the subframe out for steering gear exchange, and for washing. Found one of the bolts holding the subframe to the car was broken off!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4915.JPG

After that, I focused on the A/C evaporator coil. It is full of garbage from sitting in the woods with mouse nests in it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4917.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4918.JPG

That would NOT be healthy to breathe!!!

There was even a 22mm snail in there!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4919.JPG

Almost the same thing, right?
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4920.JPG

Then I took off the cowl panel. WOWSERS this is bad!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4922.JPG

Vacuum cleaner made quick work of it. I will be washing this area once the car is out of the barn.

The evaporator housing all cleaned up:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4923.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4924.JPG

After some Zep Purple Degreaser, the evaporator core is sparkling clean.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4925.JPG

Inside and out:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4926.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4927.JPG

All back together:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4929.JPG

New steering gear and subframe back in. Looking better.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4930.JPG\

The old cendenser I won't even attempt to clean out. It had a DA6 compressor failure. It send debris all through the system, and there are massive chunks of compressor piston seals in the condenser. It has 2 paths for the refrigerant, so I can't be sure it is flushed clean.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4933.JPG

I got the header panel off. One thing is for sure. The Chevy Celebrity has a much less service-friendly front end, than the Century. There are many hidden bolts and bolts in difficult places. More parts to it, I bet it cost a lot more to build.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4931.JPG

Hope to go to salvage yard tomorrow and get condenser coil and some other odds and ends. The oil pickup screen did arrive today but I haven't had opportunity to install it.

Tomororw I'm going to be picking up my 86 Buick GS from the painter! Can't wait. It will be nice to have it glossy again and ding-free!

ttnnyygg
11-01-2013, 04:25 AM
Stock speaker sizes on my '85 celeb coupe were 6x9 rear & 4x6 front dash, when I added aftermarket stereo and speakers.

AVTechMan
11-01-2013, 06:34 AM
OK for today's update!

Got the subframe out for steering gear exchange, and for washing. Found one of the bolts holding the subframe to the car was broken off!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4915.JPG

Tomororw I'm going to be picking up my 86 Buick GS from the painter! Can't wait. It will be nice to have it glossy again and ding-free!

Egad! Another subframe with a broken bolt! Same issue my wagon has right now, except with Camilla it wasn't rust-seized this time. Unfortunately I don't have really the proper tools to deal with replacing the broken bolt on mine right now.

Post a pic of the Buick when you pick it up...love to see shiny new paintjobs! :thumbsup:



Stock speaker sizes on my '85 celeb coupe were 6x9 rear & 4x6 front dash, when I added aftermarket stereo and speakers.

Thanks, I figured that most stock speaker sizes were standard at 6x9 and 4x6. I'll shop for those soon and get a good stereo.

turbokinetic
11-01-2013, 01:22 PM
Got lucky on the subframe bolt. It was actually rusted, just not rusted in the threads area. There was still 1/2" of bolt sticking out of the body bushing. It was easy to take out with vise grips.

What's funny, all 4 bolts were in there when I started whis job. Pulled the powertrain out, and everything stayed fine. Then I stepped into the engine bay to do some work. Even though it had supported the 500+ pounds of the powertrain, my 170 Lb was too much and POP went the bolt. Crazy.

billkandi
11-01-2013, 08:55 PM
That era Euro had the F41/FE3 steering rack? Does the sub have to be dropped to replace it or does that make it TONS easier? LOVE your project threads/posts.

AVTechMan
11-01-2013, 09:10 PM
That era Euro had the F41/FE3 steering rack? Does the sub have to be dropped to replace it or does that make it TONS easier? LOVE your project threads/posts.

The rack can be changed with the subframe in place, but its more difficult as I did with my wagon as you still have to lower at least the rear of the frame just enough to access the bolts. Removing the frame of course makes it ALOT easier as there's nothing in the way.

turbokinetic
11-02-2013, 12:15 AM
That era Euro had the F41/FE3 steering rack? Does the sub have to be dropped to replace it or does that make it TONS easier? LOVE your project threads/posts.

Not sure what it came with. Chris did order an FE3 rack to go back in it!


The rack can be changed with the subframe in place, but its more difficult as I did with my wagon as you still have to lower at least the rear of the frame just enough to access the bolts. Removing the frame of course makes it ALOT easier as there's nothing in the way.

Yep. Beleive it or not I couldn't get the gear out without dropping the frame, even with no engine in the car. The problem is, one bolt is too long to come out without hitting the car body. At the very least the rear has to be dropped down.

I got new condenser at JY today, and the compressor repair kit came in. Looking good for an engine install soon!

Also, I got my 86 Buick GS back from the painter. It looks AWESOME. I'm totally happy about it! It turned heads at every place I stopped today. :rock: Also the aerodynamics are amazing. It is silent on the freeway and 85-90 mph is nothing.

Sincerely,
David

billkandi
11-02-2013, 03:09 AM
"Also, I got my 86 Buick GS back from the painter. It looks AWESOME. I'm totally happy about it! It turned heads at every place I stopped today. Also the aerodynamics are amazing. It is silent on the freeway and 85-90 mph is nothing."



Way to go, Dave......go ahead, make all of us jealous AGAIN. :D

babyivan
11-02-2013, 03:14 AM
unbelievable build.... I love this thread, thanx David!

thesam1984
11-02-2013, 04:13 AM
I'll tell ya, when I tore Raggedy Ann apart I found just as much stuff for more stuffed in the inner workings of the fenders and the wiper cowl. I was surprised the wipers even moved. Sitting is what killed my parts car... the rust underneath is too much to use as a trailer... so that will have to come later :/ its looking great tho. How bout some pics of GS David, no teasing

turbokinetic
11-02-2013, 04:21 AM
unbelievable build.... I love this thread, thanx David!

You're welcome! Hope it encourages you in some way, to improve your car!


"Also, I got my 86 Buick GS back from the painter. It looks AWESOME. I'm totally happy about it! It turned heads at every place I stopped today. Also the aerodynamics are amazing. It is silent on the freeway and 85-90 mph is nothing."

Way to go, Dave......go ahead, make all of us jealous AGAIN. :D

LOL thanks, it pays to have connections! I will have some good photos of it. It sat in his shop while I was in Korea, so it got dusty. Plus it rained today. So I want to wash it and have it in the sun for picts.

So, because of the above trip to Birmingham, I didn't have a lot of time to work on Camilla. I did get a few things done, though.

First thing, I got the oil pump screen installed. Notice the brass bushing in the pump? This is because the pickup tube was the wrong size. Everything should fit accordin to part number. But it didn't. So a piece of brass pipe got sactificed to make a bushing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4937.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4938.JPG

All bottom parts in place. Pan on with new gasket, mount yoke in place, starting motor and torque converter shroud all in place.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4939.JPG

So - for the junkyard run! The main reason was to get a non-contaminated A/C condenser. The original DA6 compressor filled the original one with crap. The only one I could find that was usable was from an 87 Iron Duke Ciera. The Duke engien had a V5 compressor, which do not have the issue with trashing out the system. They do not send Teflon out into the lines as they fail. This condenser has a slightly different line connection, so I had to get the tube line between the condenser and evaporator, too.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4943.JPG

I flushed it with Zep Purple. Internally spotless. I could have put Zep Purple in the original one and it would have looked the same. However, there could be chunks of Teflon seals trapped in it. The Zep will not affect Teflon. So, it would slowly work its way to the orifice tube screen and plug it up. So a new condenser was the best option.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4942.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4941.JPG

The liquid line which had to be changed with the condenser had...... an issue....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4944.JPG

Ouch.

So a little Alumalloy solder to the rescue...
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4945.JPG

I still have to install the new seals in the compressor - it's still a mock-up. But this is the COMPLETE powertrain here. Looks pretty good, but I am a little concerned about the A/C suction hose going over the top of the engine. I think it may be too close to the turbo. May have to get a longer one made up.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4946.JPG

Even got the trans dipstick!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4947.JPG

Tomorrow I'm planning to get the battery cables installed (between engine bay and trunk), get the compressor ready, and maybe get the engine wiring harness re-pinned (for the 7730 ECM) and installed on the engine. That will be a stretch to get it all done but maybe things will be quiet out here!

Sincerely,
David

turbokinetic
11-02-2013, 04:23 AM
I'll tell ya, when I tore Raggedy Ann apart I found just as much stuff for more stuffed in the inner workings of the fenders and the wiper cowl. I was surprised the wipers even moved. Sitting is what killed my parts car... the rust underneath is too much to use as a trailer... so that will have to come later :/ its looking great tho. How bout some pics of GS David, no teasing

The GS looks the same as before, just de-wrecked and re-shiney-fied. :)

Picts forthcoming, but needs washing. Paint guy said not to wash it until the decals had been cured for a day.

thesam1984
11-02-2013, 04:58 AM
I didnt know it got wrecked... was it as bad as mine? And by it looks great I mean your project threads and progress... you make our projects look like we're playing with HotWheels! ...which I still do :)

babyivan
11-02-2013, 05:10 AM
The dipstick and dipstick tube are the same length as the original?
You don't wanna get false readings.

Century7667
11-02-2013, 01:15 PM
David,

This is so much fun reading this thread! I go to school every time I read this stuff!

Ken T.

turbokinetic
11-02-2013, 01:17 PM
The dipstick and dipstick tube are the same length as the original?
You don't wanna get false readings.

Very true you don't want to get false readings! The tube and the stick both came from an H-body car with the same transmission. The protrusion of the stick from the end of the tube is the same as the original stick and tube, so it should be good.


I didnt know it got wrecked... was it as bad as mine? And by it looks great I mean your project threads and progress... you make our projects look like we're playing with HotWheels! ...which I still do :)

Thankfully it was nowhere near as bad as yours! It was like that when I got it. The right quarter panel was dented in. Looked like someone turned too sharply at a gas station and hit the barrier at the end of the gas pump. Just a little dent. Plus the front and rear bumper covers were warped and puckered. I really plan to keep this car for a long time, and parts are not getting easier to find. So I had the bumper covers replaced.

LOL about the HotWheels. There's little difference, other than the storage space requirements! :)

babyivan
11-02-2013, 02:59 PM
Very true you don't want to get false readings! The tube and the stick both came from an H-body car with the same transmission. The protrusion of the stick from the end of the tube is the same as the original stick and tube, so it should be good.


:idea: I didnt think of that, as long as the protrusion is the same length (provided you could still close the hood or reach the dipstick) it doesn't matter if the tube and dipstick of are different lengths than the original.

4-3=1, but 6-5 also equal 1 (1 representing the protrusion of the dipstick). I LOVE math :thumbsup:

AVTechMan
11-02-2013, 05:22 PM
Engine mock up looks very complete! :) I do know it may be a challenge changing the spark plugs (especially the rear bank) when that time comes lol. I'm just stoked on what a top runner this car will be!

Like David's GS, I plan to keep Camilla for a long, long time as this will be the perfect road cruiser for long distance road trips. Eventually I plan to get it painted too so it can look its best!

One thing I know for sure, it will be a worthy investment to keep this and Danielle on the road and keeping them running. While some will consider junking a perfectly good running car for a plastic disposable car, I consider putting money in my two cars a very worthy investment for the long term. Car stealerships can go stick it up themselves! :D

turbokinetic
11-02-2013, 05:58 PM
Engine mock up looks very complete! :) I do know it may be a challenge changing the spark plugs (especially the rear bank) when that time comes lol. I'm just stoked on what a top runner this car will be!
...

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised about the rear spark plugs. They are actually very easy on this engine. The newer 2.8 / 3.1 with the larger plenum; and the 3.8 engines (wide) are the worst.

The only thing that's a PITA is the steering pump belt. There are at least 3 bolts to loosen, then it has to be manually tensioned and the bolts tightened. The serpentine system is easier to maintain. But this one has the classic early-model look you're going for!

AVTechMan
11-02-2013, 07:33 PM
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised about the rear spark plugs. They are actually very easy on this engine. The newer 2.8 / 3.1 with the larger plenum; and the 3.8 engines (wide) are the worst.

The only thing that's a PITA is the steering pump belt. There are at least 3 bolts to loosen, then it has to be manually tensioned and the bolts tightened. The serpentine system is easier to maintain. But this one has the classic early-model look you're going for!

Yeah the belt system reminds me of my first Olds Ciera that had three separate belts except the steering pulley was located in the front of the engine instead of the rear which made the changes easier. All belts, especially the alternator had to be manually tensioned.

Good news on the plugs....they were a pain to change on my wagon, especially the rear bank at the way they are angled.

That was what I like about my wagon was the serpentine belt....took all of about 5 minutes to replace the belt and the tensioner itself is easy to replace. But you're right, Camilla will definitely have the classic model look! I still get comments about my wagon from time to time....wait until Camilla enters the scene, especially once painted!

turbokinetic
11-03-2013, 02:40 AM
Well, got done some of what I hoped for.

Got the wiring harness installed on the engine to a pretty good degree, but it may be too close to the exhaust downpipe. Will have to get some harness clips tomorrow, to restrain it safely away from the exhaust.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4948.JPG

And it's in there!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4949.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4951.JPG

As you can see, the rear sparkplugs are wide out in the open for changing!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4952.JPG

View through the missing condenser and radiator opening.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4953.JPG

The A/C dryer, transmission dipstick, and exhaust downpipe all coexist peacefully!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4954.JPG

New home for the battery since its former location is needed for the air filter.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4958.JPG

Box in place:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4955.JPG

There is still a LOT of electrical work before she's running again. I have yet to re-pin the harness for the new ECM. There are still many details. Will make a little more progress tomorrow, then got to go back to work for a week or 2.

Sincerely,
David

turbokinetic
11-03-2013, 02:46 AM
Oh, forgot one - this showed up fedEx today!

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4959.JPG

AVTechMan
11-03-2013, 04:08 AM
What part is that? Shiny and new!

Like the location of the battery in the trunk, and the disconnect switch. The switch would be handy in cases where the car won't be in use for a short while or whenever work that needs to be done requires power removal so I won't have to mess with the battery terminals unless the battery itself needs replacement at some point.

Nice to see the engine back in the car...now the FUN part--the electrical work!

SexySilhouette
11-03-2013, 05:04 AM
I had an identical 1985 coupe. It was my first A Body, bought it from the wife of a junkyard owner.

turbokinetic
11-03-2013, 01:19 PM
What part is that? Shiny and new!

That's the air-to-air intercooler. It's amazing what the Chinese can build for less than $75 given a TIG welder and a buffing wheel! The purpose of this part is to cool the air which has been compressed by the turbo. Cooling this air allows the engine to have more power and be more reliable. Without it, the plenum of the manifold will be scorching hot and this will bake and 'age' the injectors and all the sensors on the top of the engine.


Like the location of the battery in the trunk, and the disconnect switch. The switch would be handy in cases where the car won't be in use for a short while or whenever work that needs to be done requires power removal so I won't have to mess with the battery terminals unless the battery itself needs replacement at some point.

That's the main reason for it. Also a safety device. If you need to work on the electrical system it's easy to turn off the power.



Nice to see the engine back in the car...now the FUN part--the electrical work!

Yes it is. Especially seein most of the parts appear to fit without problems. I'm using the experience with my Ciera XC turbo build on this one. Same exhaust system so I was pretty sure it would all line up.

AVTechMan
11-03-2013, 05:18 PM
That's the air-to-air intercooler. It's amazing what the Chinese can build for less than $75 given a TIG welder and a buffing wheel! The purpose of this part is to cool the air which has been compressed by the turbo. Cooling this air allows the engine to have more power and be more reliable. Without it, the plenum of the manifold will be scorching hot and this will bake and 'age' the injectors and all the sensors on the top of the engine.

Let's hope its of good quality, compared to the last time you had a challenge with an intercooler on one of your other turbo builds. China's quality is usually questionable..lol.

turbokinetic
11-03-2013, 05:56 PM
Let's hope its of good quality, compared to the last time you had a challenge with an intercooler on one of your other turbo builds. China's quality is usually questionable..lol.

Yeah. That one was plugged up internally. That, or it was not capable of flowing the air they claimed.

This one is from a different seller, but no telling if it was made at the same factory. This cooler is much bigger than it needs to be, so I don't think there will be a restriction problem.

eurosport84
11-03-2013, 10:47 PM
Very impressive David. Maybe you could help me with my '84 Eurosport and my 2 Cavalier 'verts one day......:)

turbokinetic
11-04-2013, 02:19 AM
Very impressive David. Maybe you could help me with my '84 Eurosport and my 2 Cavalier 'verts one day......:)

Thanks! It's starting to get rewarding at this point. The parts are going back together, all clean, and things are working out. I got the electrical power supply system working today, got the blower motor oiled and re-installed in the clean housing. The blower works smoothly on all speeds, and the clean evaporator flows LOTS of air. The HVAC system will work well.

I'm always open to working on the old cars. When you are ready to wake up one of them, let me know!

As for Camilla, I have a few pictures today. Made a little progress, but mostly just checking out the fitment of the new parts.

Changed the heater core because the old one was plugged inside. I tried to blow air through it and it was badly restricted. Then I remembered how all the other cars I have re-awakened after long time sitting have failed the heater core within 6 months. So I changed it. The new one is better. It's all aluminum (no solder to rot out) and it has more fins in it. So it should be hotter.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4960.JPG

The electrical power distribution is done. The large cable with blue protective sleeve is the main rear / front battery connection. The 2 wires going out the front of the connection block are the starter / alternator cable, and the other one (loops back towards rear) is the power feed to the car's original electrical system. Also note in this picture, the belt access should not be too bad. There will be one air pipe crossing over this area but I hope not to have anything else blocking this area.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4964.JPG

View from the other side. The 1996 spec radiator and fan fit nicely. This will be a good cooling upgrade. The air conditioner low pressure hose will have to be kept off the fan frame somehow. Or else it will wear a hole.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4962.JPG

I was concerned that the auxiliary fan and intercooler might be a hard fit behind the Celebrity front end. I don't think GM ever used the auxiliary fan in the Celebrity. Back during the years when the Celebrity was in production, only the 3.8L engine cars had the auxiliary fan. And the Chevy never had a 3.8 engine. But the mounting points are there and it fits! Also there appears to be room for the intercooler, with some minor notching of the header.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4961.JPG

I'll be going to work tomorrow, for 1 or 2 weeks. So Camilla will have to sit for a little while :(

AVTechMan
11-04-2013, 02:40 AM
That looks great David! I'm thinking, for the MSD box, where will that go once I get it? I assume it may go on the side where the electrical side may be. Belts always tend to be a challenge to change but since there should be some space in that area I should be good.

At least at this point alot of progress has been made so that is awesome, even though you have to go back to work this week. Gonna work on getting the MSD box hopefully within that time frame and the oil pressure gauge should arrive this week as well. Did the tires arrive okay?

turbokinetic
11-04-2013, 02:53 AM
That looks great David! I'm thinking, for the MSD box, where will that go once I get it? I assume it may go on the side where the electrical side may be. Belts always tend to be a challenge to change but since there should be some space in that area I should be good.

At least at this point alot of progress has been made so that is awesome, even though you have to go back to work this week. Gonna work on getting the MSD box hopefully within that time frame and the oil pressure gauge should arrive this week as well. Did the tires arrive okay?

Thanks! It is looking better and better. I think the MSD controller will probably need to go on the left side, near the air filter. The right side (with the battery junction point) will have the air pipe from the throttle body to the intercooler. That will be large and it will have to be in a certain place. The other side won't have that. And, a Century / Ciera type coolant bottle will be on the belts side of the engine. The original one that was on the left side, will not fit because of the turbo.

It would be excellent if the MSD and oil gauge could arrive soon. This is because the sensor for the gauge is on the front of the engine. Once the radiator has been final-installed and filled with coolant, that area for the sensor will be very difficult to access.

The air filter mounting location will share space with the MSD. It would be good to have both of them on hand for the layout of that corner of the engine bay. That way it is a "right the first time" situation.

Oh, and yes - tires arrived no problem!

AVTechMan
11-04-2013, 03:02 AM
The oil gauge should arrive either tomorrow or Tuesday (according to UPS). That oil pressure gauge will be important to have once the car is running to make sure the pressure is where it needs to be. I will order the MSD box later this week on Thursday. I'll keep you posted.

turbokinetic
11-14-2013, 03:39 AM
Well, here's a small update for today!

Yesterday, I started the engine for the first time with the new 7730 ECM and its 3-bar speed density program. The engine ran fine, but I only ran it long enough to check for oil leaks on the turbo and transmission lines. No leaks, it's all good!

This is the details part of the build, where it's hard to 'see' the progress, but a lot of work goes into the details.

In all honesty, this project is about 75% standard 'restoration' and about 25% turbo conversion. This poor car has so many small problems that all would add up and make it a bitch to get running right. I've spent a lot of time just repairing the wiring harnesses. The cooling fan harness was unrestorable. It was all tape, bread bag twisties, and wire nuts. I had to start over. The engine harness is not too bad, but the connectors were most all broken.

This is the coolant temperature sensor connector. Very important for the engine starting and running, fan control etc. Does this look reliable?
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4977.JPG

Replaced. This looks simple, but each wire had to be re-terminated in the new connector.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4978.JPG

This is the FUEL INJECTORS connector! This one is critical as you all know. Does this look like it is reliable or safe?!? No picture, but I installed a new pair of male and female WeatherPack connectors.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4979.JPG

Then the torque converter clutch connector. The wires were broken off. This may be why the trans was failed. This could have overheated it. The old and the new. These connectors are all still available. The bodies, seals, and terminals are still used in industry.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4983.JPG

The TCC and wasteate valve harness installed:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4984.JPG

Then, while the front of the engine was still exposed (no radiator) I prepared the compressor for permanent installation.

All clean:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4980.JPG

The inside doesn't look bad at all. This is a good sign.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4981.JPG

New pulley bearing, shaft seal, and body o-rings. Should be good to go for a few years!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4982.JPG

All installed, connected, and evacuuated.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4986.JPG

In line with the other electrical problems, I found out NONE of the dash lights work. Not the Check Engine, OIL, Temp or any other warnings.

Hope to move on to the air pipework for the turbo system tomorrow!

AVTechMan
11-14-2013, 07:01 AM
Weird about the dash lights not working. Did they work when you ran the car pre-conversion? I did see the lights look like in that first test-drive video. Electrical problems are usually the worst type problems as they can be very difficult to track down when a related problem occurs. And of course its nice to replace those critical connectors--would hate for the fuel connector to work its way out during a drive!

turbokinetic
11-14-2013, 10:54 PM
Well, today I got the radiator in, and actually had an opportunity to warm up the engine. It doesn't sound bad at all.

The trans goes in gear with a nice crisp feel, unlike it did before! Will be anxious to see how it shifts out once the car is on its wheels.

There is no air pipework connected to the turbo, so it's blowing air out in the open. You can definately hear it spool up as the engine is revved.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89shM4hUoM

AVTechMan
11-15-2013, 06:47 AM
Well, today I got the radiator in, and actually had an opportunity to warm up the engine. It doesn't sound bad at all.

The trans goes in gear with a nice crisp feel, unlike it did before! Will be anxious to see how it shifts out once the car is on its wheels.

There is no air pipework connected to the turbo, so it's blowing air out in the open. You can definately hear it spool up as the engine is revved.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89shM4hUoM

Very nice!! Camilla sounds like she is almost ready to conquer the roads! Looks like the oil pressure is just above 25 PSI (couldn't see exactly where it was). I noticed it looked like you installed the MSD box at the firewall in the back. I may consider adding a tach which shouldn't be tough since the MSD provides a tach wire.

I am also looking to seeing how the tranny does, sounds firm and solid when you shifted into reverse and drive. One thing's for sure there won't be any slipping this time around!

turbokinetic
11-16-2013, 02:42 AM
Ah! Today was a day of fabrication! I probably smell like metal dust and welding smoke! :)

First thing was the exhaust system pipe. This one is the connection between the catalytic converter (if used) and the engine. Because it's significantly larger than the original pipe, I had to remove all the heat shields from under the car. This was to keep the pipe from banging on them. So it had to be insulated to keep from overheating the floorboard and the steering gear. A double leayer of fiberglass wrap and some high temperature aluminum tape takes care of that!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4990.JPG

On to the intake side! The original air box snorkle had a pathetic 1.25" inlet hole. That would be a restriction. So I made a 3" inlet setup. It is drawing air from the fender area, which should be cooler air and it doesn't go forward to the crowded area behind the header. The Celebrity has a much tighter header area than the Century.

Pre-paint assembly test.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4992.JPG

Area painted and beading installed on the hole.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4993.JPG

Airbox installed!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5007.JPG

On my other Chevy V6 turbo projects, I've had problems with the air hose popping off the throttle body. The Chevy TB does not have any lip or groove (like the Buick ones do) so the boost pressure blows th ehose off. So I made this jig to groove the TB. That's just a grinding wheel mounted in a drill press. The TB is mounted on a wood block to hold it at a constant height. I just ran the drill press and manually rotated the TB around to create the groove.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4994.JPG

The result:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4995.JPG

Air hose installed. That's a big hose!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4997.JPG

Now onto the charge pipes and intercooler.

Fan support with additional brackets for cooler.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5000.JPG

Header fits, after some milling out of areas.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4999.JPG

All purdy!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5001.JPG

And installed:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5002.JPG

With cooler:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5003.JPG

Charge pipe from turbo to cooler:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5004.JPG

Hose from turbo to charge pipe:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5009.JPG

Connected to cooler. Also the other cooler pipe is partially fabricated. Had to make a hump around the auxiliary fan motor.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5010.JPG

I got started on fabbing up the charge pipe between the cooler and the TB hose, but ran out of welding wire! So tomorrow will start again on it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5011.JPG



Very nice!! Camilla sounds like she is almost ready to conquer the roads! .... Looks like the oil pressure is just above 25 PSI (couldn't see exactly where it was). I noticed it looked like you installed the MSD box at the firewall in the back. I may consider adding a tach which shouldn't be tough since the MSD provides a tach wire.

I am also looking to seeing how the tranny does, sounds firm and solid when you shifted into reverse and drive. One thing's for sure there won't be any slipping this time around! .

Yeah, the MSD does have a tach output. The car had a tach wire connected under the hood. I guess it's dead-ended under the dash. I think that's where it will be for connecting an aftermarket tach.

Will have to go to junkyard again. The airbox lid has rust holes in it! This car is full of surprises.

Later,
David

AVTechMan
11-16-2013, 07:00 AM
Nice job on the pipework. Definitely beyond my skill on the fabrication, but could learn though. Also that coolant bottle could use some pressure washing as it looks dirty inside. I'm thinking of possibly getting a tach to add, just the matter of where to place it in the dash. Those big cooler hoses are not uncommon as I see those in the semi-trucks I pre-trip daily. And I had a turbo air hose pop off one day on the truck (mechanic left on the old hose clamp which broke from the pressure)! Left the truck with a full trailer load pretty weak going up the hill!!

A quick story on that; I was driving back from the Detroit area one night on a dedicated run last year, and at about 20 mins on the road I noticed a thick cloud of smoke from the back of the trailer....I was a rolling smokehouse!! Came to find out the turbo itself gave up the ghost, and oil went EVERYWHERE! Over half the trailer, all over the side of the truck and fuel tank, it was a huge mess. I was very thankful that nothing caught fire that night or it would have been a huge fiasco. And oil pressure dropped pretty fast too so had to make a very quick emergency stop on the shoulder. Called dispatch, told them what happened and they thought they could send a guy out to fix it, but I told them this incident will need a tow. Needless to say had to wait 2 hours for them to bring out a truck from our yard to where I was, wasn't a good night!

Long story short, the turbo was destroyed, and one of the splines got lodged in the exhaust pipe in the elbow. I told the boss they were lucky that none of the turbo pieces went in the motor, or else that would have cost the company an engine. That truck had over 500K miles on it so I guess it done its job. Took the company several months to decide what to do with the truck on whether to repair it or not. Eventually they went ahead and had a new turbo installed, but the shop they used to install it didn't replace the hose clamps with it (which caused the situation mentioned with the hose popping off).

Camilla is going to be my biggest Christmas present this year. Still lots to work on as far as the interior and exterior body, but at least will have plenty of power under the hood!

turbokinetic
11-16-2013, 02:19 PM
Nice job on the pipework. Definitely beyond my skill on the fabrication, but could learn though. Also that coolant bottle could use some pressure washing as it looks dirty inside. I'm thinking of possibly getting a tach to add, just the matter of where to place it in the dash.

Thanks on the pipework! Hope to finish it today. Yeah - that coolant bottle is fresh from the junkyard! The Celebrity originally had a bottle on the other side of the egine bay. It had to go because the air filter hose goes right through that area. The bottle in there now came from a Ciera / Century.

As for the tach and other gauges - Many of the Turbo Buick guys like the A-post gauge pods. I used to think they looked awful, but the location of the guages is good, and they aren't THAT bad if done right. I have some pictures of the ones in Hugh's LeSabre Grand National. I will post them later if I remember!


Those big cooler hoses are not uncommon as I see those in the semi-trucks I pre-trip daily. And I had a turbo air hose pop off one day on the truck (mechanic left on the old hose clamp which broke from the pressure)! Left the truck with a full trailer load pretty weak going up the hill!!

A quick story on that; I was driving back from the Detroit area one night on a dedicated run last year, and at about 20 mins on the road I noticed a thick cloud of smoke from the back of the trailer....I was a rolling smokehouse!! Came to find out the turbo itself gave up the ghost, and oil went EVERYWHERE! Over half the trailer, all over the side of the truck and fuel tank, it was a huge mess. I was very thankful that nothing caught fire that night or it would have been a huge fiasco. And oil pressure dropped pretty fast too so had to make a very quick emergency stop on the shoulder. Called dispatch, told them what happened and they thought they could send a guy out to fix it, but I told them this incident will need a tow. Needless to say had to wait 2 hours for them to bring out a truck from our yard to where I was, wasn't a good night!

Long story short, the turbo was destroyed, and one of the splines got lodged in the exhaust pipe in the elbow. I told the boss they were lucky that none of the turbo pieces went in the motor, or else that would have cost the company an engine. That truck had over 500K miles on it so I guess it done its job. Took the company several months to decide what to do with the truck on whether to repair it or not. Eventually they went ahead and had a new turbo installed, but the shop they used to install it didn't replace the hose clamps with it (which caused the situation mentioned with the hose popping off).

LOL yeah. Sometimes when our truck shop gets behind, I have to work on their engines (work for a Caterpillar dealer). Had to replace a few shelled out turbos that did the same thing - blew oil all over creation and smoked so bad traffic was blocked by the cloud!

I learned about the hoses popping off, with my old T-Type. I was messing with a late model car on the road, and I was well ahead of him. Then BOOM the hose blew off the TB. Instant power loss, along with a very embarassing noise!


Camilla is going to be my biggest Christmas present this year. Still lots to work on as far as the interior and exterior body, but at least will have plenty of power under the hood!

Yeah. The interior is scary at times. It's not hard to clean, because I have the proper equipment to do it. Just concerned about the dash wiring. I don't want you to end up with an unreliable car because of electrical gremlins. Once I get the car on the road I can focus on those things.

turbokinetic
11-17-2013, 01:40 AM
Got an update today! The air pipework is DONE! Finally had time and opportunity to get that out of the way.

Got the 2 remaining pipes tacked in position:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5014.JPG

The pipe from the throttle body down...
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5016.JPG

Got the mounting position all cleaned up and some beading on the cutout for the pipe.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5017.JPG

All the air pipes in.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5018.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5019.JPG

The pipe is in 2 pieces so that all parts of it can be removed without cutting anything. It would be easier to make it all one piece. But then you would have to cut and weld if anything had to be removed.

Now for this.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5022.JPG

It used to sit right where the pipe goes through the car body. Will have to find a new spot for it. Found a place just big enough, near the original location.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5023.JPG

Maybe tomorrow I can take it for a test drive!

AVTechMan
11-17-2013, 02:45 AM
Woohoo! Finally ready for a test drive! It will be very interesting to see how well Camilla will ride this time! I would guess that the electrical and the pipework was the biggest part of this job. Did you get the dash lights working again?

turbokinetic
11-18-2013, 02:04 AM
Ok - today Camilla is off the jack stands and on her wheels again! I was able to go for a short test drive, but forgot my camera. The engine and trans seem to be working well, just need the usual adjustments. I was hoping to do some adjusting, but the old dryrotted tires are not roadworthy. After about 5 minutes of driving, a HUGE goose-egg came up on the left front tire. I had to hobble it home at about 25 MPH. So there ended my test driving today. :(

Chris sent a new set of tires, so I will be taking the wheels off the car and taking the wheels and tires to get them changed out.

After getting the car mobile again, first thing I did was wash the areas that I couldn't get to before. The under-cowl area and the area behind the header panel got a good washing!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5029.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5030.JPG

Then cleaned the cowl and the header, and put them back on.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5032.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5033.JPG

I had a scare with it today. The engine has water only for coolant so that I don't waste antifreeze, and to flush the system. So any dripping water is cause for alarm. After running the engine for 15 or 20 minutes on the jackstands, I found a huge puddle of water under the car! Waaahh! NO!!! Then I remembered the reason I had been running the engine was to..... charge the air conditioner. :banghead:

Tomorrow I plan to go to junkyard and try to get some odds and ends for this and other projects. Hope to have a test drive video soon! The engine starts and runs perfectly normal. The turbo sounds good, but I haven't really boosted it up yet because of no tune yet. The trans shifts solidly in all gears, but the pressure is too high, and the modulator is adjusted all the way down. Will have to investigate this. At worst the trans end pan could have to come off (BIG JOB) to get to the valve body. I hope it's the modulator its self. Otherwise the trans shifts great. I like the 3.33 / 35-35 gearing. It really woke up the car. Especially considering it has a bone-stock 4.3 tune.

Sincerely,
David

AVTechMan
11-18-2013, 03:02 AM
Uhh...yea David A/C's are supposed to drip water when running! LOL :D I'm hoping its just the modulator as well on the tranny, as it would now be a pain to have to dismantle parts to get to the valve body.

Tires...well, I guess the dry-rotted ones pretty much told you they didn't want to be on the road anymore, so it told the front left tire to develop a big egg..LOL. Yeah I am being a wisecrack tonight. The new tires are aching for some road action.

As for the coolant, you know up until recently I never knew that you could simply run plain water in the radiator and be fine. But of course if running in a cold environment, then antifreeze would be a necessity. Running plain water at least would clean out any remaining crud in the block.

Glad the engine runs well and the tranny shifts solid. Unlike the previous test drive video where the trans was struggling, now that's the least of the worries. The body looks nice and clean, short of needing a new body and paint job.

occupant
11-18-2013, 11:03 AM
This car is going to be a nice beast, love seeing it come together one piece at a time and everything done so right!

I now wish I had bought that '84 Eurosport sedan back in '97 instead of the little Datsun 210 wagon. Both cars sold for $65 but I only got the Datsun. That Celebrity, turns out, was owned by a girl who played trumpet with me in marching band. Navy blue in and out, HO 2.8, overdrive auto with floor shift, all power. Loud exhaust and rusty door bottoms on it were the reasons why I picked the Datsun. Then again I probably wouldn't have kept it long anyway.

I'm keeping an eye out for some sort of A-body. Have a guy willing to give me $600 for the Windstar and if I can save that and an equal amount then $1200 should be enough to get something good. Barring that you might see me rocking a Dynasty. The 3.3 engines also are rumored to take nicely to turbocharging...

turbokinetic
11-18-2013, 01:10 PM
Uhh...yea David A/C's are supposed to drip water when running! LOL :D I'm hoping its just the modulator as well on the tranny, as it would now be a pain to have to dismantle parts to get to the valve body.

Tires...well, I guess the dry-rotted ones pretty much told you they didn't want to be on the road anymore, so it told the front left tire to develop a big egg..LOL. Yeah I am being a wisecrack tonight. The new tires are aching for some road action.

Yes, they are! My barn office area smells like new tires, and I want to get them on the car and not stinking up the place! :)


As for the coolant, you know up until recently I never knew that you could simply run plain water in the radiator and be fine. But of course if running in a cold environment, then antifreeze would be a necessity. Running plain water at least would clean out any remaining crud in the block.


Yeah, it's bad for the engine to keep water without some sort of treatment in the engine. They make non-antifreeze coolants which are just corrosion inhibitor packages. We use these offshore on the big diesel powerplants. They never freeze becaus there is always at least one engine running in the engine room.

Because this was a very invovled build, there is always a chance of leaks at first. Plus the engine was full of crap-a-doo-doo of some sort. Looks like there could have been a lot of sealer or other crap in there. I want to use water, and dump and refill several times until it's clear. Then put in the coolant.

The primary purpose of the coolant is to carry heat from the cylinder sleeves and combustion chambers to the radiator. Anything that will flow in a circuit will do this job! Just that some things are not very kind to the metals in the engine.


Glad the engine runs well and the tranny shifts solid. Unlike the previous test drive video where the trans was struggling, now that's the least of the worries. The body looks nice and clean, short of needing a new body and paint job.

Today I'm taking your tires and wheels to the Sears off-car. Then taking the trailer to Birmingham to Pull-A-Part. I could, in theory, bring back a trunk lid if I can find one. These cars are very rare in the salvage yards, so I probably won't find a trunk. However one can always hope and dream! ;)


This car is going to be a nice beast, love seeing it come together one piece at a time and everything done so right!

I now wish I had bought that '84 Eurosport sedan back in '97 instead of the little Datsun 210 wagon. Both cars sold for $65 but I only got the Datsun. That Celebrity, turns out, was owned by a girl who played trumpet with me in marching band. Navy blue in and out, HO 2.8, overdrive auto with floor shift, all power. Loud exhaust and rusty door bottoms on it were the reasons why I picked the Datsun. Then again I probably wouldn't have kept it long anyway.

Wow, an 84 Eurosport HO. Those were incredi-rare! For a couple hundred you could have a whole new 'zaust system built for it, with whatever level of sound you want!


I'm keeping an eye out for some sort of A-body. Have a guy willing to give me $600 for the Windstar and if I can save that and an equal amount then $1200 should be enough to get something good. Barring that you might see me rocking a Dynasty. The 3.3 engines also are rumored to take nicely to turbocharging...

Yeah! Hope you can find another A-car. As far as I know, there are only TWO turbo 3300 cars in existence. Another would be a good addition.

turbokinetic
11-20-2013, 03:57 AM
Ok, today I did a little interior and electrical work. I need to be sure the warning lights and gauges are working before testing the limits of the engine by trying to tune it.


While I had the dash apart, I found a PERIOD CORRECT radio, with the proper faceplate. So I built that one up (new capacitors and rear AUX input) and installed it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5042.JPG

The bulb was bad for the Check Engine and the OIL warning lights. Probably the Check Engine light was on all the time for the last few years of the car's life! It was all black. The OIL bulb was just bad without any visible signs. All new light bulbs in the cluster. One new warning light is now there. It says "DETONATION." By the way, the rolled up wiring behind the boost and oil gauges is not connected or related to those gauges. That is tied up out of the way because it will go under the carpet eventually.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5051.JPG

Detonation is what kills turbocharged engines. This light is connected to an output of the ECM. That output is programmed to give a signal related to the amount of TIMING RETARD caused by detonation. In other words, if the knock sensor is picking up detonation and the ECM is taking out more than a safe amount of timing, this light will come on to warn you to "take your foot out" of the pedal before you melt a piston! Thanks to the mad programming skills of the guys at Code59.org for this feature!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5055.JPG

Dash lighting, but my camera sux in low light!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5053.JPG

Boost and oil pressure gagues. Fully functional, including the backlighting controlled by the panel dimmer.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5052.JPG

AVTechMan
11-20-2013, 07:24 AM
Looks great, David! And learned a new thing regarding the 'Detonation' light! Fortunately I don't have a lead foot so that shouldn't be a problem. My siblings sometimes gripe on me because I drive like a truck driver (staying near the speed limit) and not an aggressive driver lol.

May need to see if I can find a better looking steering wheel similar to the current one. Looks dirty but sure it can be cleaned up good too, hopefully.

Did you get to figure the issue with the transmission's high pressure?

Century7667
11-21-2013, 12:31 AM
Changed the heater core because the old one was plugged inside. I tried to blow air through it and it was badly restricted. Then I remembered how all the other cars I have re-awakened after long time sitting have failed the heater core within 6 months. So I changed it. The new one is better. It's all aluminum (no solder to rot out) and it has more fins in it. So it should be hotter.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_4960.JPG

:(

David where did you source the all aluminum heater core for the a-body? Do you have the part number handy?

Thanks!
Ken T.

Century7667
11-21-2013, 12:56 AM
Never mind! I read it off the tag from your pic and googled it! Gave it a shot and it worked!

Ken T.

turbokinetic
11-21-2013, 01:24 AM
Never mind! I read it off the tag from your pic and googled it! Gave it a shot and it worked!

Ken T.

LOL good Canon camera! :)

turbokinetic
11-21-2013, 01:30 AM
Looks great, David! And learned a new thing regarding the 'Detonation' light! Fortunately I don't have a lead foot so that shouldn't be a problem. My siblings sometimes gripe on me because I drive like a truck driver (staying near the speed limit) and not an aggressive driver lol.

I'm the same way in town. Very cautious driver. On the Interstate I run over the speed limit, but only when the road is clear. Give me a ramp or a traffic light as an opportunity to "open it up" and I will let the turbo speak!


May need to see if I can find a better looking steering wheel similar to the current one. Looks dirty but sure it can be cleaned up good too, hopefully.

The wheel is actually in good shape. It just needs to be cleaned. I haven't done any cleaning yet because I want to get all the technical issues resolved first. Once I clean the carpet and seats the car will be out of commission for several days of drying.


Did you get to figure the issue with the transmission's high pressure?

Not yet. Will have to pull the end pan and check for stuck valves.

I drove Camilla on a 20 minute trip today - and it definately drives and rides well. The suspension is tight and the FE3 steering gear is very firm and responsive. Overall really pleased! No rattles or "worn out" feel.

turbokinetic
11-21-2013, 01:52 AM
In the interest of preventing further damage to the car during working on it, I decided to address the drivers' door sagging issue. I hadn't been closing the door all the way because it was super-loose and hitting the body. The reason was obvious. Not "worn" door bushings - MISSING door bushings. The bushings had worn all the way through and crumbled out of the upper hinge.

Missing bushings and pin walked out.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5056.JPG

Put a set of stands under the door to hold it up while the pins are out.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5059.JPG

I was wrong! HALF of the lower bushing is still there....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5057.JPG

New bushings in, and test-fit of the pin.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5060.JPG

Because these pins tend to "walk out" I put a groove for an E-clip on the end of each. This will be a secondary safety measure, in addition to the knurled head.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5061.JPG

All better now!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5062.JPG

Door in alignment. Notice the white foam weatherstripping? Someone noticed the door was not closing properly, so they added weatherstripping to fill the gap caused by door misalignent. You can see where it was hitting the body. Now it's straight and opens / closes smoothly.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5063.JPG

The moral to this story - PLEASE OIL YOUR HINGES. Especially the coupes with the big, heavy doors. This is important. I prefer a tacky lubricant like chain/cable lube or open gear lube. It is a heavy oil that stays in place. Things like WD-40 or penetrating oil are worthless here.

The absolute WORST part of this job is the spring for the door detent cam. This spring is very stout and there is no good way to do it. Two prybars get it back in, but it is no fun!

eurosport84
11-21-2013, 02:15 AM
Wow, an 84 Eurosport HO. Those were incredi-rare!



That's what my blue one is... & why she's not for sale. :)

turbokinetic
11-21-2013, 02:56 AM
That's what my blue one is... & why she's not for sale. :)

Yes, I remember seeing that one when I looked at Camilla at your place! How's that 84 running?

AVTechMan
11-21-2013, 06:07 AM
I drove Camilla on a 20 minute trip today - and it definately drives and rides well. The suspension is tight and the FE3 steering gear is very firm and responsive. Overall really pleased! No rattles or "worn out" feel.

That's great that the drive, and suspension is firm. I'm guessing the struts are still in good condition? Didn't think to ask about those. As for the sagging door, I had noticed that sometime ago before the work began on it. Glad the door is now level as it should be.

Also may be a silly question but, what's unique about the Eurosport H.O. model that makes it rare?

turbokinetic
11-21-2013, 12:59 PM
That's great that the drive, and suspension is firm. I'm guessing the struts are still in good condition? Didn't think to ask about those. As for the sagging door, I had noticed that sometime ago before the work began on it. Glad the door is now level as it should be.

Also may be a silly question but, what's unique about the Eurosport H.O. model that makes it rare?

Chris, the HO has the Eurosport suspension and trim, plus it has the carburetor 2.8 engine with the "big valve" heads like the Cavalier Z24 MPFI engine. I am pretty sure the carb is special in some way or another, too. Steve can laborate on that. They made a very few of them.

eurosport84
11-22-2013, 12:35 AM
Yes, I remember seeing that one when I looked at Camilla at your place! How's that 84 running?

She still runs real good... has just over 100K on the clock. I need to change the pic in my sig. She's sporting 16" wheels off a '95 Beretta Z26 now. :D

turbokinetic
11-22-2013, 05:15 AM
She still runs real good... has just over 100K on the clock. I need to change the pic in my sig. She's sporting 16" wheels off a '95 Beretta Z26 now. :D

Cool, I'm sure the handling is amazing with the 16's! These cars last a long time. Just at 100K it still has a lot of life.

Camilla shows about 57K. Is that 157 or has the odometer been faulty? The car does not appear to be worn that much.

Sincerely,
David

turbokinetic
11-23-2013, 02:17 AM
Got about the last detail of the turbo build done today! Got the turbine housing insulation in place, and made a shield for the top of the turbo to progect the actuator rod.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5069.JPG

This will keep the heat from baking the cruise control actuator or the transmission shift cable. Or anything near it, for that matter! The cover on top is there to keep anything like wires, or some accidental damaged piece of hood isulation from getting on the linkage of the wastegate actuator. Looks better with that covered up anyway!

Got a replacement trunk lid (old one had a cancerous rusted hole in it). The car was an 89 model, with a very complete and clean trunk interior. I got the insulation, spare tire cover, and mats. The spare tire was there, with the tits still on it. Never been used. The problem was, it was a JA1 car so the pattern was wrong. :(

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5067.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5068.JPG

I hope tomorrow to make a short road trip in Camilla. Need to give it a shakedown run. It's running very well, but any car that's been sitting this long will have things that happen when you start driving it again.

I hope to go to Pull-A-Part in Birmingham tomorrow.

The weather has been rainy, so I haven't made any test drive videos, Maybe tomorrow will be clear. The transmission harsh-shifting problem is getting better. I am afraid that is the result of letting the trans sit for so long after building it. I had all the openings taped up - but maybe moisture got in there and there was some slight rust on a valve spool. It should wear off and start working better. Will know after a drive on the freeway tomorrow!

AVTechMan
11-23-2013, 07:55 AM
Hey David, what's the small box next to the battery? Looks like an inverter since I see outlet plugs.

turbokinetic
11-23-2013, 12:57 PM
Hey David, what's the small box next to the battery? Looks like an inverter since I see outlet plugs.

Yep, that's a power inverter. It's there for my laptop for the tuning ECM. The cigarette lighter socket was no good, so I temporarily wired it to the battery there.

If you want permanent wiring for an inverter, this is the time to install it. While I have the back seat out for cleaning it's super-easy to install the cabling.

I have inverters in my primary cars. It is a huge handicap not having one! Seems everything comes with a 120V charger but you have to pay for a 12V charger. So the inverter pays for its self not having to buy dedicated 12V laptop charger, phone charger, MP3 charger etc.

AVTechMan
11-23-2013, 03:56 PM
Yep, that's a power inverter. It's there for my laptop for the tuning ECM. The cigarette lighter socket was no good, so I temporarily wired it to the battery there.

If you want permanent wiring for an inverter, this is the time to install it. While I have the back seat out for cleaning it's super-easy to install the cabling.

I have inverters in my primary cars. It is a huge handicap not having one! Seems everything comes with a 120V charger but you have to pay for a 12V charger. So the inverter pays for its self not having to buy dedicated 12V laptop charger, phone charger, MP3 charger etc.

If the lighter socket is no good, then it would be a good idea to get the cabling in place for the inverter when you get the seats out. Funny, I used to have a 1000 watt inverter years ago (but had sold it) when I used to drive OTR...was able to power a microwave with it. I'll look into getting a small inverter. I always have things to plug in, mostly chargers for my phone and such.

eurosport84
11-23-2013, 07:12 PM
Cool, I'm sure the handling is amazing with the 16's! These cars last a long time. Just at 100K it still has a lot of life.

Camilla shows about 57K. Is that 157 or has the odometer been faulty? The car does not appear to be worn that much.

Sincerely,
David

It's 157. Cars down here hold up a long time...unless they sit. Then, as you & I both know now, horrid stuff starts to happen!

turbokinetic
11-24-2013, 01:58 AM
Unfortunately, today I had a serious problem happen with Camilla.

For the last few days I've been driving the car around town with wideband system and laptop connected; trying to finish the tune. Today I got the front end aligned and tried to make a road trip to Birmingham (about a 1.5 hours drive). On the interstate, I completed a few WOT pulls, checking for air fuel ratio and checking for detonation. It performed perfectly, and I was very happy with it. Then, about 20 minutes later, the engine started losing oil pressure. I stopped and checked, but the oil is still full. As I returned home, it lost more oil pressure, and it does not sound good. I expect the crankshaft main bearings are burned. Will be pulling the pan and finding the root cause very soon.

I should have gone ahead and made a full overhaul. As they say, hindsight is 20-20. But at the time I was trying to not spend unnecessary money.

It's disappointing, but this is what can happen when working on old cars with unknown history. The mains looked OK when I had the engine open. But there could have been some debris in the block passages, or a casting flaw causing reduced oil flow. It was enough for a stock power output but when run at maximum RPM and full power, it was not adequate.

If the crank is bad, it will get a 3.1 crank / pistons. That will give it a few more CC displacement.

AVTechMan
11-24-2013, 03:06 AM
Yep, this is a setback, but eventually get resolved. I think I will order a tach to have attached so that I can keep an eye on the RPM form time to time, though I know you can monitor the RPM via laptop during the tuning phase. I remembered awhile ago when you first had the engine out on the condition of the pistons/crank. Of course, as its known, looks can sometimes be deceiving! :)

Will giving it a 3.1 crank/matching pistons give it a bit more power? I really hate though all the components that will have to be dismantled to get the motor out again. :(

babyivan
11-24-2013, 03:44 AM
Shit. Are you gonna tear down the trans as well to pinpoint the high pressure deal?

turbokinetic
11-25-2013, 03:22 AM
Shit. Are you gonna tear down the trans as well to pinpoint the high pressure deal?

Actually, it started behaving its self. I think it was just a stuck valve from the trans sitting so long. After about 100 miles the trans was normal. Once it started working right, that's when I started trying to tune it, and pushed it. Then this happened.

I plan to start pulling the engine soon, but I had already some other things in progress. So I washed the interior stuff!

The seats were bad. Very bad. There are marks where baby seats have been strapped in the car. Along with that is a couple gallons of dried Coca Cola syrup in the seats. This took pressure washing to remove. I tried vacuuming with upholstery cleaner and a minimal amount of water. That was ineffective. So out came the Zep Industrial degreaser and the hot water pressure washer. The first of the water came out blackish brown. Nasty! Then after 5 or 10 minutes of constant blasting with hot water - the water was running out clear.

This was what I started with:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5075.JPG

There IS still light grey under there!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5078.JPG

See the Coca Cola water running out the bottom? This will require pressure washing. The hose and vacuum cleaner will not cut it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5083.JPG

Carpet on the trailer about to get blasted.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5085.JPG

Left seat washed, right seat not yet. See the color difference?
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5086.JPG

Notice the clear water running out? No more Coca Cola.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5089.JPG

The water is definately hot. But that gets the funk out!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5091.JPG

Seats drying.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5093.JPG

Carpet drying:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5092.JPG

The carpet is worn, probably from years of use without floormats. But, when floormats are installed, that area will be covered. The brown areas in the middle are the areas which were clamped down by the seat mount points.

The carpet insulation pad (not shown) was wet under the carpet. I am sure this was due to the driver's door alignment from the bushings. I have a heater and fan in there to dry it out before the carpet goes back.

Will be nice and sanitary now. Not the worst I've seen, but close to it. :)

babyivan
11-25-2013, 06:36 AM
That's some amazing before and after shots of the interior! I'm lucky with my car, nobody ever used the back seat.
When people get in the back, they always look for the shoulder belt, hehe. Funny how people forget that cars of the 80's didnt have em.

turbokinetic
11-25-2013, 01:43 PM
That's some amazing before and after shots of the interior! I'm lucky with my car, nobody ever used the back seat.
When people get in the back, they always look for the shoulder belt, hehe. Funny how people forget that cars of the 80's didnt have em.

Yeah. Also the 70's cars (like my Nova) didn't always have FRONT shoulder belts. Only a lap belt.

You wouldn't beleive how easy it is to clean these seats. All you got to have is time and space to let them dry afterwards. First I wet them slightly, then I sprayed them with Zep Ultraconcentrated degreaser (a very strong alkalai soap). After that, I lightly brushed the surface to make sure the Zep soap was evenly distributed. Finally, it was a simple matter of pressure washing, starting at the top and working down. One could do this at a carwash if you don't have a pressure washer. You could see the brown funk running down as the water washed out the fabric. It is important to spray it long enough that the underlying foam has been washed. If the foam is not clean, the brown discoloration will re-appear as the seats dry. It soaks up from the foam back into the fabric.

Keep washing until the water running out of the bottom of the foam is clean. On the worst of the seats, I had to re-wash it twice because the discoloration started coming back as it was drying.

turbokinetic
11-26-2013, 03:05 AM
Ok, got the interior mostly back in the car today. I didn't put the carpet moulding in place because that has to come out to install the door weatherstripping.

First the carpet goes in:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5095.JPG

Then the console body. Got the radio aux cable and the power cables in there.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5096.JPG

Complete console with inverter control and outlet. Function test with 150W shop light.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5098.JPG

Seats back in:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5100.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5102.JPG

As far as interior restoration, there are only a very few remaining issues. The seatbelts are frayed (both the front ones); the door weatherstripping is debonded; and the headliner fabric is missing but the backing board is good.

Tomorrow I start on pulling out the engine. Will be interested to find out what went wrong.

Ciera91
11-26-2013, 03:08 AM
Looks clean! For smaller jobs if you are interested too I found that FOLEX is pretty good for smaller areas too. I had a newer 08 Impala with a light gray headliner/visors. Looked like a mechanic might have had the car. Grease prints all over visors and headliner. This stuff is no rinse, I used it on that and an ink stain and seriously like magic it came right out and couldn't even tell it was dirty.

turbokinetic
11-26-2013, 03:17 AM
Looks clean! For smaller jobs if you are interested too I found that FOLEX is pretty good for smaller areas too. I had a newer 08 Impala with a light gray headliner/visors. Looked like a mechanic might have had the car. Grease prints all over visors and headliner. This stuff is no rinse, I used it on that and an ink stain and seriously like magic it came right out and couldn't even tell it was dirty.

It looks 15 years newer, and smells much nicer, too.

Cool I will check out the FOLEX. Yeah - as a mechanic myself I try VERY hard not to get the interior messed up. Lubricants belong under the hood!

EDIT: The Folex looks like a good no-rinse product. But there comes a time when those things have to be put aside..... and brute force applied. In the form of alkalai degreaser followed by many gallons of piping hot water at 3500 PSI.

AVTechMan
11-26-2013, 08:24 AM
Console, inverter switch and outlet looks great! And with the seats back inside, the front looks like a nice little control center there. I'm very glad the seats are clean now; I would have a hard time sitting in unsanitary dirty seats, especially with that old dried Coke syrup and Lord knows what else. :barf: I may plan to get seat covers to keep them protected as much as possible, as I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to cleanliness.

As for the headliner I found the thread where another poster re-did his headliner. Just the matter of removing the backerboard and getting new fabric for it and a good adhesive. Looks pretty easy to do.

Now my concern turns to the motor to find out what happened.

turbokinetic
11-26-2013, 02:09 PM
Console, inverter switch and outlet looks great! And with the seats back inside, the front looks like a nice little control center there. I'm very glad the seats are clean now; I would have a hard time sitting in unsanitary dirty seats, especially with that old dried Coke syrup and Lord knows what else. :barf: I may plan to get seat covers to keep them protected as much as possible, as I'm a bit sensitive when it comes to cleanliness.

As for the headliner I found the thread where another poster re-did his headliner. Just the matter of removing the backerboard and getting new fabric for it and a good adhesive. Looks pretty easy to do.

Now my concern turns to the motor to find out what happened.

LOL at the puking smiley! I guess it means http://68.209.87.173/Temp/POOP.gif on the seats equals :barf: from the occupants!

(sorry I couldn't resist!)

I too keep covers on my seats, at least the driver's seat in my primary car. Then I can just throw that away when it's bad.

As for the headliner, see about availability of that material (the light grey foam-backed felt) and maybe you can bring it with you when you come down here. I have a can of the adhesive already (it has many uses!)

I'm working on the engine today, hope to have a repair plan soon.

turbokinetic
11-26-2013, 11:06 PM
Well, I was a good guesser by the sound of the engine. The center 2 mains are wiped. They show massive amounts of adhesive wear and heat damage. The front and rear mains; as well as the rod bearings are not wiped but have contamination damage form the other failure.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5107.JPG

Did not spin in the block. That's a good thing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5108.JPG

Rod bearing is not destroyed. Only shows some contamination damage.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5110.JPG

Will be replacing that crank.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5106.JPG

Will definately be further investigating. There is a root cause somewhere. Later I will roll out the upper main inserts and inspect the oil holes. I have to take my time on the full teardown of this engine because it is a project build I had running perfectly. I want to put it back in the same condition as easily as possible. So don't know if I will have it stripped down tonight. Haven't yet seen the cam bearings. They can fail and prevent oil from circulating properly.

Sincerely,
David

AVTechMan
11-27-2013, 12:15 AM
Well, at least the bearings didn't spin in the block which is a very good thing. Now comes the old-school game of 'process of elimination'. In the last pic, what part consists of the crank? I'm back in education learning mode now.

turbokinetic
11-27-2013, 01:21 AM
Well, at least the bearings didn't spin in the block which is a very good thing. Now comes the old-school game of 'process of elimination'. In the last pic, what part consists of the crank? I'm back in education learning mode now.

You notice there are 4 places in a line, in the center of the engine which are 'brightly' reflecting the camera flash? Those are the journals where the bearings support the crank.

AVTechMan
11-27-2013, 01:57 AM
You notice there are 4 places in a line, in the center of the engine which are 'brightly' reflecting the camera flash? Those are the journals where the bearings support the crank.

Ok, so if I understand correctly, when the crank turns it turns within the bearings. What you took apart were the lower bearings, and now you have the upper bearings still in place. Proper oil lubrication would keep oil flowing to the bearings to keep them from overheating and burning out. That's why its been said to never lug an engine (semi trucks) because of the extensive damage of the bearings.

turbokinetic
11-27-2013, 03:14 PM
Ok, so if I understand correctly, when the crank turns it turns within the bearings. What you took apart were the lower bearings, and now you have the upper bearings still in place. Proper oil lubrication would keep oil flowing to the bearings to keep them from overheating and burning out. That's why its been said to never lug an engine (semi trucks) because of the extensive damage of the bearings.

That's correct.

The diesel engines have a system which uses the excess oil flow to cool the pistons. Some engines use pistons that are hollow and filled with flowing oil. The system gives the bearings priority, so at idle when the heat on the pistons is very small, they don't get any cooling oil flow. THen as the engine revs up and the oil pump makes more flow, the pistons start receiving cooling oil flow.

If you pull the engine RPM down near low idle RPM, but with load on the engine, it will cause the oil flow to the piston cooling jets to be closed off. Also the turbocharger won't work at low RPM. This will cause high combustion temps due to low airflow (no boost). Combine this with no piston cooling oil. In addition to heavy loads on the bearings, it will overheat the pistons, expand them, and cause bore scuffing or piston seizure.

It is very important to keep the engine in its designed operating RPM range.

turbokinetic
11-27-2013, 11:51 PM
OK got the engine torn down today. Had issues with air compressor and had to fix it to proceed with the engine. It shredded a belt on the coldest day of the year so far!

I think I have found a contributing factor for the bearing failure. The machining and alignment of the oil ports to the bearing inserts oil holes is truly awful.

Once the cam bearings are out I will be interested to see how well the intersecting passageways up there are aligned.

Combustion chambers look good. No carbon.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5112.JPG

Intake valves are clean:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5113.JPG

The bearing oil hole alinment is far from acceptable.

They are most all a little out of alignment. Two of them are severely misaligned. What you are looking at is the seat in the block where the main bearing insert fits. The round hole is the oil supply from the engine oiling system. The long "slot" is the oil channel that directs this oil to the bearing. The bearing has 2 holes which allow oil from this channel to go into the journal. If the hole is not aligned with the slot, there is a restriction to flow.

This is accetable. The hole lines up with the slot. Other than the slot is too narrow where the bearing oil hole aligns, this one is OK.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5123.JPG

I don't see how this lasted as long as it did:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5120.JPG

Eh, halfway aligned is OK. When you are a union worker on Monday morning....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5122.JPG

Not even close. Two minutes with the grinder would fix this.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5124.JPG

The damaged crankshaft. The journals are no longer smooth, and the center mains have been heated and therefore weakened.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5125.JPG

Closeup of scored journal.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5126.JPG

The second main from the left was the one that started the failure. It's one of the misaligned ones.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5127.JPG

This is very sad and GM should take more pride in their assembly procedures. I'll be interested to see what the cam bearing bores look like. Since they have the intersecting oil ports for the mains, that area could also be part of the cause of this failure.

Got to get the block to the machinist after Thanksgiving. That way they can remove the cam bearings and check main bore alignment. Once we determine the block is good I will correct the machining on the oil ports.

Sincerely,
David

AVTechMan
11-28-2013, 01:24 AM
So, it looks to be an alignment problem. That's very sad, most likely this is what caused the failure. GM should be ashamed of themselves for letting this defect leave the factory, or whereever it was assembled. Its amazing that the car lasted as long as it did with this defect. Shame on you GM! :pffft:

turbokinetic
11-28-2013, 01:55 AM
So, it looks to be an alignment problem. That's very sad, most likely this is what caused the failure. GM should be ashamed of themselves for letting this defect leave the factory, or whereever it was assembled. Its amazing that the car lasted as long as it did with this defect. Shame on you GM! :pffft:

These engines are made in Mexico. The Buick engines were made in USA.

The good news is, it's easy to fix. Just got to wait until the machine shop opens up after Thanksgiving, because they have a special tool to remove the cam bearings. Once all parts are out of the block, I can rework the oil passages.

babyivan
11-28-2013, 02:08 AM
fuck chevy and their made in Mexico bs!

Buick city in the heart of flint mi. Made with pride in the usa. Sucks that they tore it down in 2002.


I shutter to think of owning a Mexican made VW.

AVTechMan
11-28-2013, 02:38 AM
These engines are made in Mexico. The Buick engines were made in USA.

The good news is, it's easy to fix. Just got to wait until the machine shop opens up after Thanksgiving, because they have a special tool to remove the cam bearings. Once all parts are out of the block, I can rework the oil passages.

That's good news at least. So what will the crankshaft be replaced with? I'm sure the pistons may be replaced too if they have any damage anywhere. Of course that would mean getting another set of new bearings.


**** chevy and their made in Mexico bs!

Buick city in the heart of flint mi. Made with pride in the usa. Sucks that they tore it down in 2002.


I shutter to think of owning a Mexican made VW.

Well, beats having a China made GM vehicle!

babyivan
11-28-2013, 02:49 AM
Well, beats having a China made GM vehicle!
GM car made in China!!?!? What's this country coming to!?!?!??!!!

they are not for sale in the US I hope.......

turbokinetic
11-28-2013, 02:08 PM
fuck chevy and their made in Mexico bs!

Buick city in the heart of flint mi. Made with pride in the usa. Sucks that they tore it down in 2002.

I shutter to think of owning a Mexican made VW.

LOL your humbly stated opinion has been duly noted. :)

Yeah. I have issues with closing the Buick engine plant in favor of the Chevy engines. I understand the reasons, the 3800 engine lasts longer than any car so GM was throwing away money by putting that level of durability in the engine. The other reason has to do with the future emissions and milage laws. The valvetrain and head design of the smaller engine was easier to adapt. They need direct-injection, as well as variable valve timing, displacement-on-demand and other useless junk like that to meet the future regulations.

Those reasons do NOT justify the total shit quality that has come from the Chevy engine line from time to time. The Chevy engine DESIGN is as good as any. But you have to be able to put the damn thing together PER DESIGN for it to work right. And I am sure the design does not call for the oil ports to be halfway (or less) in alignment.


GM car made in China!!?!? What's this country coming to!?!?!??!!!

they are not for sale in the US I hope.......

GM cars are SUPER popular in China. They do make Chevy and Buick in China, for the China domestic market. They see Buick as we see Cadillac and Mercedes.


That's good news at least. So what will the crankshaft be replaced with? I'm sure the pistons may be replaced too if they have any damage anywhere. Of course that would mean getting another set of new bearings.
Well, beats having a China made GM vehicle!

Will be getting a 3.1 remanufactured crank. The existing one is not trustworthy because of the heat damage to the main journals. Pistons must match the crank, so those will be 3.1 also.

The metal shavings from the failed bearings ruined all bearings in the engine. Every bearing, including the turbocharger bearings, will be replaced.

AVTechMan
11-28-2013, 02:21 PM
Will be getting a 3.1 remanufactured crank. The existing one is not trustworthy because of the heat damage to the main journals. Pistons must match the crank, so those will be 3.1 also.

The metal shavings from the failed bearings ruined all bearings in the engine. Every bearing, including the turbocharger bearings, will be replaced.

Makes sense. Best to replace the pistons too, since with the car having sat so long surely don't need an issue with a cracked piston (happened to a friend of mine's car recently). Getting it done right the first time is what my late grandfather used to always tell me.

With the 3.1 crank and pistons, will that improve performance in any way, or will it be about the same?

turbokinetic
11-28-2013, 06:11 PM
Makes sense. Best to replace the pistons too, since with the car having sat so long surely don't need an issue with a cracked piston (happened to a friend of mine's car recently). Getting it done right the first time is what my late grandfather used to always tell me.

With the 3.1 crank and pistons, will that improve performance in any way, or will it be about the same?

Yep. It will increase displacement, and therefore torque. It will be a 11% torque increase for a given cylinder pressure.

The math behind this is, new displacement divided by original displacement 3.1/2.8 = 1.11 So that's 1.11 times the original size, or 111%

It's basically a free uprade, because a replacement crank and pistons for either engine costs roughly the same.

turbokinetic
11-30-2013, 03:42 AM
Sorry it's been a while since I posted an update here. I found more problems with the engine, and determined it would be most cost-effective to buy another core engine to use for the rebuild. The camshaft and lifters are damaged, and the oil port alignment problem is present at the cam bearings also. This area is not accessible to the grinder for opening up the misaligned ports. So it was time to find another core.

I went to Pull-A-Part in Birmingham today. It was cold out (by our standards) but I survived!

I found ONE lonely, abused 3.1 engine, with the upper intake manifold missing and the intake runners full of rainwater. It was my only chance, so I tore it down and found it was not rusted yet. Must have been from the rain yesterday. The car was a 91 Cavalier Z24, hit hard in the right rear quarter. Looked well taken care of otherwise, so the engine had a good chance of being usable - other than the water.

I got the engine (less the heads) for the cost of a block only, due to the water issue. Quite a deal considering the condition it ended up being in. The bottom end is near perfect. Two pistons have light scuffing but the crank is perfect, cam and lifters perfect, and there are no obvious defects.

Yes, I cut the seatbelts out of some hapless car and made lifting straps.. :( That was at the sugestion of the junkyard guy, by the way...
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5130.JPG

Front cover off. Looks a little varnished but the chain is no where near as stretched as the original one from the 2.8.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5131.JPG

Camshaft out. No spalled lobes or scored journals. This is good!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5133.JPG

Oil pickup screen is clean.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5135.JPG

Comparison of the 3.1 piston (left) with an original 2.8 piston (right). The 3.1 piston is lighter weight. It will not put as much stress on the connecting rods at high RPM's because of less reciprocating mass. The top of the piston has a dish in it to lower the compression ratio. I will have to research it and see what kind of CR this will give. It may require new pistons with different CR.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5136.JPG

Crankshaft rod bearing journal. Not a single scratch.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5137.JPG

All the parts laid out, sprayed with corrosion inhibiter.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5138.JPG

Zaloryan
11-30-2013, 04:31 AM
Comparison of the 3.1 piston (left) with an original 2.8 piston (right). The 3.1 piston is lighter weight. It will not put as much stress on the connecting rods at high RPM's because of less reciprocating mass. The top of the piston has a dish in it to lower the compression ratio. I will have to research it and see what kind of CR this will give. It may require new pistons with different CR.


Don't want to get too theoretical, but I would like to mention that the 2.8 has less rod angularity to it than the 3.1. Thus, cylinders wear less in a 2.8 than a 3.1, all things being equal.

Rod/Stroke Ratios: 2.8 V6: 1.9 3.1 V6: 1.72
Please note that the 2.8 V6 has the same Rod/Stroke Ratio as the Chevrolet 302 V8. The 3.1 V6 has a Rod/Stroke ratio of a Chevrolet 350. Both V6s use a 5.7 inch center-to-center length connecting rod according to a Chevrolet Power Service Manual I found on gafiero.org.

Calculated rod angularity:
2.8 V6: 15.297 degrees. Long connecting rods assist breathing with small port cylinder heads.
3.1 V6: 16.899 degrees. Approaching rod angle limit for most street engines. Great compromise.

Just some fun information that I found a few days ago. :) If anything I posted is incorrect, please correct me & I will recalculate accordingly.

turbokinetic
11-30-2013, 01:09 PM
Don't want to get too theoretical, but I would like to mention that the 2.8 has less rod angularity to it than the 3.1. Thus, cylinders wear less in a 2.8 than a 3.1, all things being equal.

Rod/Stroke Ratios: 2.8 V6: 1.9 3.1 V6: 1.72
Please note that the 2.8 V6 has the same Rod/Stroke Ratio as the Chevrolet 302 V8. The 3.1 V6 has a Rod/Stroke ratio of a Chevrolet 350. Both V6s use a 5.7 inch center-to-center length connecting rod according to a Chevrolet Power Service Manual I found on gafiero.org.

Calculated rod angularity:
2.8 V6: 15.297 degrees. Long connecting rods assist breathing with small port cylinder heads.
3.1 V6: 16.899 degrees. Approaching rod angle limit for most street engines. Great compromise.

Just some fun information that I found a few days ago. :) If anything I posted is incorrect, please correct me & I will recalculate accordingly.

Yes, the rods are the same between the two. The pistons have a different pin bore position to keep the compression height correct.
Probably the more rapid acelleration of the piston due to the different geometry, is why GM decided to go with the lighter pistons. Just a guess.

LOL at "What is this & what does pulling it out do?" That sounds like what's said just before screaming "NO NO DON'T TOUCH THAT!!!" :)

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-30-2013, 11:20 PM
RE: The top of the piston has a dish in it to lower the compression ratio

Sidebar trivial

Older Volvo 2.3 turbo redblock engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Redblock_Engine) used 7.5:1 to 9:1 compression ratio (http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~amh110/turbo_engine_ouputs.htm), whereas NAs have run around 8.3:1 to 10.3:1 ratios.

Volvo used same block for Turbo and NAs, but pistons had inverted dome for turbos, and turbo exhaust valves were sodium filled valves.

That said, Volvo turboists have used flat-top pistons found on NAs, but denotation tends to be an issue.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-30-2013, 11:25 PM
but I would like to mention that the 2.8

Gen II works just fine....300K, and still running:-)

turbokinetic
12-01-2013, 03:34 AM
Gen II works just fine....300K, and still running:-)

Yes the Gen II engines are very reliable. The Gen II block I'm working on for this project is much, much stronger than the original. There are more gussets, reinforcements, and the sides are thicker.

Also interesting to hear about the Volvo blocks. I can only imagine the detonation trying to run a 10:0 CR on a boosted engine, using a very basic engine management system... :)

Ok, here are some picts of the block cleanup and grinding job.

Washed and oiled up a little. Don't like the flash rust getting in it!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5141.JPG

Before any grinding. There definately is some flash.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5142.JPG

The new bearings are better. They have larger oil holes as well as oil groove on the lower insert. There is quite a bit of metal blocking some of the larger oil hole.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5144.JPG

Oil groove design. I like this.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5145.JPG

The new and the old.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5146.JPG

Hole size comparison.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5147.JPG

I drilled the old bearing to the same side as new ones. It will be a pattern for modifying the block, without risking a slip of the grinder and damagin the new ones.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5148.JPG

Pattern in the block.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5149.JPG

Modification done. Radius and blend the oil passage into the oil groove. Widen the bottom of groove from a V shape to a U shape, and add a "toilet bowl" area to match the larger bearing oil hole.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5150.JPG

New bearing matched up prettywell!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5151.JPG

This one was the rear main. It was the worst. This is after modifying.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5153.JPG

All bearings line up well now.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5155.JPG

That gets the oil TO the bearings. NOw to get it back to the sump. The casting flash gone.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5161.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5162.JPG

I enlarged the 3 return holes which were not too close to the cylinder bores. This should help the oil to get back to the sump instead of getting trapped in the camshaft compartment.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/engine/IMG_5163.JPG

So tomorrow I plan to drill and thread the turbo oil return hole and get the block ready for new cam bearings. I want to have the machine shop REMOVE the old cam bearings so I can inspect and possibly port or blend the main bearing oil feed at that location.

Sincerely,
David

85_Ciera_Rebuild
12-01-2013, 04:15 AM
David:

I have not been following this thread, but I assume one has seen this write up (Jack Merkel Performance Engine):


Buick Turbo V6 Engine Build Overview - Buick Power Part 1 (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0205gmhtp_buick_turbo_v6_engine_build_overview/)



Buick Turbo V6 Engine Build - Bottom End - Buick Power Part 2
(http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0207gmhtp_buick_turbo_v6_engine_build_bottom_end/)

Buick Turbo V6 Engine Build - Buick Power Part 3 (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0209gmhtp_buick_turbo_v6_engine_build/)

babyivan
12-01-2013, 04:21 AM
David:

I have not been following this thread....
Where have you been, this is the best running thread on the forum. :thumbsup:

To follow the ups and downs of yet another amazing build by David.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
12-01-2013, 05:12 AM
Where have you been,.

I've been rebuilding a 1984 B23F Volvo engine, and just recently, installed this 1984 engine into a 1993 vehicle.

I had to drill out two holes in block to mount the crank position sensor...as seen in this photo (http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/englander23/Capture_zpsd33cbd88.jpg)....we are talking being precise here.

Here is photo of my work space (http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/englander23/Capture22_zpsfcd5f38d.jpg)...talk about a primitive shop:-)

No heat there...no fancy tools there....I rebuilt it the old fashion way...clean out ring groves with an used ring...used flat bed pickup as my work table...etc.

turbokinetic
12-01-2013, 12:37 PM
Where have you been, this is the best running thread on the forum. :thumbsup:

To follow the ups and downs of yet another amazing build by David.

LOL I wish the subject matter of the thread (Camilla) was running as well as the thread its self! ;)


David:

I have not been following this thread, but I assume one has seen this write up (Jack Merkel Performance Engine):


Buick Turbo V6 Engine Build Overview - Buick Power Part 1 (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0205gmhtp_buick_turbo_v6_engine_build_overview/)



Buick Turbo V6 Engine Build - Bottom End - Buick Power Part 2
(http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0207gmhtp_buick_turbo_v6_engine_build_bottom_end/)

Buick Turbo V6 Engine Build - Buick Power Part 3 (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0209gmhtp_buick_turbo_v6_engine_build/)

Thank you for the links, will read up on them today if I have opportunity.


I've been rebuilding a 1984 B23F Volvo engine, and just recently, installed this 1984 engine into a 1993 vehicle.

I had to drill out two holes in block to mount the crank position sensor...as seen in this photo (http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/englander23/Capture_zpsd33cbd88.jpg)....we are talking being precise here.

That's a cool jig there. Is the aluminum piece a permanent part of the engine, or is that what you're using for a drill guide? The picture is so close to the engine it's hard to tell just what you're looking at. IIRC Volvo has the speed/timing sensor on the bellhousing reading from the flywheel?




Here is photo of my work space (http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/englander23/Capture22_zpsfcd5f38d.jpg)...talk about a primitive shop:-)

No heat there...no fancy tools there....I rebuilt it the old fashion way...clean out ring groves with an used ring...used flat bed pickup as my work table...etc.

Love the farm shops! That brings back memories. You've got a nice concrete floor, a roof and walls. That's a plus. Plus I am assuming the doors close?

Remember the old farm where I used to do projects? Dirt foor, no doors on barn, only power was from car inverter or raggedy generator.

I am very thankful for my new barn, which also was a farm HQ at one time. It is "semi-heated" so to speak. I have a portable electric heater that will keep one area warm. If I worked here full time I couldn't afford the power bill to heat this way, but for a week or two at a time it's not that bad. Also thankfully it's a lot more mild weather here than where you are!

I worry about assembling engines in cold environment. We are actually warned about this at work. There is a specification for the temperature to torque the critical parts of the engine. Many engines are designed to be assembled at about 100°F. I beleive that was the temperature the parts were at due to machining and working at the factory. The pliability of the gaskets and the elasticity of the metals is "as designed" at that temperature. At very cold temps things tend to not be torqued correctly. For instance, the head gaskets may be hard and incompressible if too cold. The bolts reach torque but the gaskets are not squeezed down to the final compressed thickness. Then things warm up, the gasket "relaxes" and the bolts are no longer torqued to specification. Or if it's a "torque turn" bolt the torque gets so high that something cracks or breaks before the turning phase is completed; because the gasket doesn't compress down and give things room to move.

Just something to think about!

Sincerely,
David

85_Ciera_Rebuild
12-01-2013, 01:32 PM
jig there....using for a drill guide?

Yes, a jig for using a transfer punch, but I used a center punch:-) And, was within specs for CPS.

In these photos (not mine):

A. Two Blocks (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/arnoroth661/1990%20Volvo%20244/DSCN3391.jpg) - One without these CPS holes

B. Bridgeport vertical mill (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/arnoroth661/media/1990%20Volvo%20244/DSCN3416.jpg.html) with a right angle head on it - I did it by hand

C. Finished (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/arnoroth661/1990%20Volvo%20244/DSCN3868.jpg)





"semi-heated" so to speak.


Solarize it...



I worry about assembling engines in cold environment.


Thanks for tips...no heat here...I'm on a wing-and-a-prayer....but for first several thousand miles, no radio/music will be turned on...

turbokinetic
12-01-2013, 02:31 PM
Yes, a jig for using a transfer punch, but I used a center punch:-) And, was within specs for CPS.

In these photos (not mine):

A. Two Blocks (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/arnoroth661/1990%20Volvo%20244/DSCN3391.jpg) - One without these CPS holes

B. Bridgeport vertical mill (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/arnoroth661/media/1990%20Volvo%20244/DSCN3416.jpg.html) with a right angle head on it - I did it by hand

C. Finished (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/arnoroth661/1990%20Volvo%20244/DSCN3868.jpg)





Solarize it...



Thanks for tips...no heat here...I'm on a wing-and-a-prayer....but for first several thousand miles, no radio/music will be turned on...

Cool, I see now. There must be a notch at the top of the transmission case to clear the sensor.

I don't think you'll have any problems with the engine! The temperature warnings we at work were brought up during discussion of working at Sakhalin Island, Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin) at the oil and gas production fields there. I hope NOT to go there, at least not in winter!

85_Ciera_Rebuild
12-01-2013, 06:24 PM
There must be a notch at the top of the transmission case to clear the sensor.

See photo (http://jjvphotography.com/M46/bellhousing2.jpg)...not mine, but the same for Automatic bell-housing.

86euro
12-01-2013, 06:46 PM
From what I've always read, those dished pistons are going to create a very large drop in compression. I don't remember the exact amount, but it's a lot. It's not such a big deal when you are tearing it all down, it just adds pistons to the parts list. But when looking for a drop-in gen1 replacement motor with more cubes, the U-van 3.1 or the F-body 3.4 are good options.

turbokinetic
12-03-2013, 04:30 AM
Got a little update today. First, the block is at the machine shop getting the cam bearings installed. Will hopefully get it back in a few days.

In the meantime, Chris made a road trip to Alabama to work on Project Camilla and take care of some small problems with his Pontiac 6000 wagon.

He bought some headliner material at home and brought it down.

The Velcro attachment pads had pulled out of the backing board. The staples pulled through. There are some small slits where the staples pulled through.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5164.JPG

From the back where the Valcro used to be:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5165.JPG

Super glue was used to bond the Velcro to the back of the headliner. To reinforce it, we put a layer of Gorilla duct tape over the front of the board, and then stapled through this tape into the Velcro.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5166.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5167.JPG

A generous two-coat layer of Permatex Headliner Adhesive applied:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5169.JPG

The fabric applied and trimmed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5170.JPG

Going back together. Matches nicely!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5171.JPG

Completed job:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5172.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Repairs/IMG_5173.JPG

The material cost about $20, with the adhesive being another $11. Not all of it was used. It looks really good. Also, we installed nice weatherstripping to the doors, and all the trim is in place. It's looking great!

billkandi
12-03-2013, 11:14 AM
Is weatherstripping positioning critical or not? By that I mean in relation to the trim pieces. I have a leak on my driver door, can't figure if it's a hinge pin issue or me reglueing the rubber in the wrong spot.

turbokinetic
12-03-2013, 12:45 PM
Is weatherstripping positioning critical or not? By that I mean in relation to the trim pieces. I have a leak on my driver door, can't figure if it's a hinge pin issue or me reglueing the rubber in the wrong spot.

Hi Bill, the entire weatherstripping assembly needs to be orientated correctly (top at the top of the door, bottom at the bottom). There are some holes punched in the weatherstripping to let air escape as the door is closed.

If the door is touching the weatherstripping all the way around, it should not be leaking. These cars are hard to get sealed up. There are several rainwater leak paths that can develop. The beading around the edge of the roofline needs to be sealed and not cracked. If water goes underneath this, it can flow underneath the weatherstripping between the stripping the the car body, and leak.

Another place is the windsheild. It's really common for the windsheild and rear window to debond and leak. The windsheild can leak at a top corner and appear to be a door leak.

billkandi
12-03-2013, 06:47 PM
My leak is at the bottom of the driver door just about where the sill panel and kick panel join. I have one bad hinge pin still to replace on that door. The rubber had come unstuck on all 4 doors some time back when I was getting it ready for my kids to drive and I reglued it back in place. Just wondering if it is oriented properly. I'm not sure if I got it positioned correctly in the opening. Does any of the trim cover the rubber or does it just butt up to it?

Duke George V
12-04-2013, 02:02 AM
Hey Dave, I know this is a little late since you've already acquired a 3.1, but just for future reference, the 3.4 from the 93-95 F-body drops in in place of a 2.8 with only minor modification. The starter is on the "wrong" side in FWD configuration, so that has to be relocated. But you can do the same thing as you're doing now: use the short block and bolt on the heads, intake and accessories.

Overclocked
12-04-2013, 02:31 AM
Wow, your headliner install looks amazing! Was it a very tedious task to remove/ reinstall?

A lot of people never bother fixing the sagging headliner in their cars, and it just looks so tacky. There's a Jag XJ12 in my neighborhood with a headliner so bad that it touches the drivers seat.

turbokinetic
12-05-2013, 01:46 AM
My leak is at the bottom of the driver door just about where the sill panel and kick panel join. I have one bad hinge pin still to replace on that door. The rubber had come unstuck on all 4 doors some time back when I was getting it ready for my kids to drive and I reglued it back in place. Just wondering if it is oriented properly. I'm not sure if I got it positioned correctly in the opening. Does any of the trim cover the rubber or does it just butt up to it?

Bill, the carpet moulding trim covers up the backing part of the weatherstripping (the part the rubber glues to). The soft rubber part is fully exposed.


Hey Dave, I know this is a little late since you've already acquired a 3.1, but just for future reference, the 3.4 from the 93-95 F-body drops in in place of a 2.8 with only minor modification. The starter is on the "wrong" side in FWD configuration, so that has to be relocated. But you can do the same thing as you're doing now: use the short block and bolt on the heads, intake and accessories.

Thanks, I was aware there was a 3.4 iron head engine, but time was of the essence and the only thing I could find on short notice was 3x00 engines and that 3.1. Did that 3.4 have a DIS ignition? I am curious because eventually my Ciera XC will need the engine rebuilt, and since the block is broken - it opens up many opportunities. It is Gen II aluminum head.


Wow, your headliner install looks amazing! Was it a very tedious task to remove/ reinstall?

A lot of people never bother fixing the sagging headliner in their cars, and it just looks so tacky. There's a Jag XJ12 in my neighborhood with a headliner so bad that it touches the drivers seat.

It does look great! Chris can give you more info on it when he gets home. I was just a passive observer for that repair! Yeah, I HATE a sagging headliner. I will cut the fabric out completely before riding in a car with the headliner flapping in the breeze.

Back to the engine build - The machinist isn't done with the cam bearings yet. They are really busy!

I worked on the heads today, porting and cleaning them. The iron head engines can benefit quite a lot from simple porting such as gasket-matching the intake ports and blending / smoothing the valve bowls. I didn't spend a long time on this, maybe 2 hours.

Before:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5175.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5176.JPG

After:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5180.JPG

Also, as suggested I cleaned up and blended the oil drainback channel - removing casting flash and creating a smooth path for oil to return to the block from the valvetrain.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5186.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5187.JPG

Valves all cleaned up. Will probably take them to the machinist to get them ground, IF they won't clean up by lapping. There is hardly any wear, just some light pitting on the exhaust valves. The intake valves looked unused after polishing.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5191.JPG

Duke George V
12-05-2013, 02:55 AM
Thanks, I was aware there was a 3.4 iron head engine, but time was of the essence and the only thing I could find on short notice was 3x00 engines and that 3.1. Did that 3.4 have a DIS ignition? I am curious because eventually my Ciera XC will need the engine rebuilt, and since the block is broken - it opens up many opportunities. It is Gen II aluminum head.
The 3.4 is SFI and DIS, but it has provisions for a distributor, since it is still basically a gen 1 design. I don't see why you couldn't use the 3.4 short block in the Ciera, but I may be wrong. I've only every heard of it being used in place of another iron head engine.

Also, I would like to amend my earlier statement. You can use the 3.4 long block, that is, everything but intake, exhaust and accessories, in place of an iron head 2.8. The heads are the same basic design, but flow better due to larger valves and updated port design. I have no direct experience, though, so I would recommend registering over at 60degreev6.com and asking there.

turbokinetic
12-05-2013, 03:17 AM
The 3.4 is SFI and DIS, but it has provisions for a distributor, since it is still basically a gen 1 design. I don't see why you couldn't use the 3.4 short block in the Ciera, but I may be wrong. I've only every heard of it being used in place of another iron head engine.

Also, I would like to amend my earlier statement. You can use the 3.4 long block, that is, everything but intake, exhaust and accessories, in place of an iron head 2.8. The heads are the same basic design, but flow better due to larger valves and updated port design. I have no direct experience, though, so I would recommend registering over at 60degreev6.com and asking there.

Ok, the thing I was concerned about was the speed sensor hole in the back of the block. The Gen I blocks don't have that. I may go with a 3400 short block since there won't be a time constraint on that project. Would get the roller cam, updated oiling system and 4 bolt mains. That's a HUGE plus. There are some boosted 3400's putting down 400 HP dyno pulls.

I'm over at 60degreeV6, they've given some helpful suggestions for the Camilla build such as the blending of the oil return slots.

AVTechMan
12-05-2013, 07:22 AM
Wow, your headliner install looks amazing! Was it a very tedious task to remove/ reinstall?

A lot of people never bother fixing the sagging headliner in their cars, and it just looks so tacky. There's a Jag XJ12 in my neighborhood with a headliner so bad that it touches the drivers seat.

Thanks for the compliment! I hate sagging headliners, especially when it has deteriorated foam falling from it.

The headliner job isn't hard, but does take a little time and care, especially in removing the upper trim pieces in the car and the dome light in the middle. Plus, care has to be taken to remove the backerboard from the car without damage. Once out, then its just the time to vacuum/remove the loose material and apply the adhesive before the fabric.

I'm pretty tired from the drive back from AL, but that's the basics of it. I plan to do the headliner on my wagon soon. Headliner fabric can be found easily at a local fabric/craft store or auto upholstery shop, though for me it was cheaper to get it at the fabric store.

turbokinetic
12-05-2013, 09:45 PM
Block is still at machinist for cam bearings, but I got the heads ready today. The exhaust valves worried me a little, but the light pitting lapped out.

Lapping the valves with grinding paste. It looks like liquid Terminator!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5194.JPG

Just used the electric drill and pressed the valve head against the seat with an oiled thumb.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5195.JPG

Result was good!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5192.JPG

Seats look OK too.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5193.JPG

All valves lubed with Sta-Lube and installed. The tape keeps them from falling out by accident.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5196.JPG

I use an old drill press to compress the springs. That's just a 3/8 socket extension with a crowfoot oxygen sensor socket.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5199.JPG

A rubber plug under the valve head keeps the stem out all the way.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5197.JPG

The exhaust valves don't have a valve guide seal, but they have a sheild and an o-ring on the stem.
Press the spring all the way down.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5200.JPG

Install the o-ring....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5204.JPG

And the wedges....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5205.JPG

And done!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5206.JPG

The intake valves have a valve guide seal, as well as the o-ring.

Put this protector over the stem, then press a lubricated valve guide seal over the protector. Stop halfway and remove the protector and seal.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5207.JPG

Install the spring, then put the protector and seal back on the stem.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5208.JPG

Press it in with a socket.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5210.JPG

It's in. Now the protector can come out. After that, it's the same as the exhaust valve, with the o-ring and the wedges.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5211.JPG

All done.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5215.JPG

Once the machinist confirms the block won't require boring out - the pistons can be ordered.

turbokinetic
12-06-2013, 03:23 AM
This shares the oiling system with the engine, and surely it took a beating. Also it came from a junkyard and I should have overhauled it the first time anyway probably.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5217.JPG

First, off with the compressor housing. That snap ring is a bear to remove. Had to heat the housing area to soften the o-ring and help things get moving. I did not mark the orientation of the housing, because I was not satisfied with it. I will find a new better position when it goes back on the car. The air hose was in an "uncomfortable" position.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5218.JPG

I did mark the turbine housing orientation. That one has to be same, or the tubelines won't fit.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5219.JPG

CHRA out of the housings. Removal of the turbine housing the first time (during initial turbo system build) was VERY hard, requiring heating and use of hydraulic expanding "duckbill" thingy. This time it just came off normally.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5220.JPG

I blasted the impeller and turbine with glass beads before dismantling. There are factory markings on them which were covered in ash. I marked the housin with a very shallow scribe line, and made note of which factory marking lined up with this. This way I can ensure the oritntation of the shaft and compressor wheel is the same. Also marked the shaft nut with a scribe line because it is balanced with the other parts and needs to be torqued to exactly the same position. This is for maintaining the balance of the unit.

This part is critical. The turbo shaft must absolutely not be subject to any side loading. It can not tolerate any bending. The only way to remove the nut is to support the end of the turbine wheel and the nut its self. The housing can NOT be used for any support or leverage during the torquing or removal. Doing so will ruin the turbo. The nut is insanely tight for such a small part.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5221.JPG

Impeller off.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5222.JPG

This part did not want to come off. I had already plugged the oil ports so that blasting media could not go in the turbo. I just applied air to the oil port after removing the snap ring. It was LOUD and that cover went flying!!!:p
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5223.JPG

Shaft out.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5224.JPG

The bearings. New and old. You can see the damage caused by the contaminated oil. :(
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5226.JPG

New thrust bearing. It's a different design. The original one had a one-piece journal and an open side to the thrust bearing. The new one has a two-piece journal and a 360° thrust bearing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5228.JPG

This is it for today. Parts cleaned up, but the bearing housing is in a chemical bath overnight. I don't want to risk getting blasting media inside it, but the crud in there has to go. So it will have to soak overnight.

Later,
David
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5230.JPG

babyivan
12-06-2013, 05:03 AM
David, I gotta know.... how did you acquire all of this knowledge on engine building, transmission building and especially turbos?
Did you have somebody teach you this stuff, or is it from a lot of trial and error?

AVTechMan
12-06-2013, 06:46 AM
This shares the oiling system with the engine, and surely it took a beating. Also it came from a junkyard and I should have overhauled it the first time anyway probably.

First, off with the compressor housing. That snap ring is a bear to remove. Had to heat the housing area to soften the o-ring and help things get moving. I did not mark the orientation of the housing, because I was not satisfied with it. I will find a new better position when it goes back on the car. The air hose was in an "uncomfortable" position.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5218.JPG

Great...more difficult snap rings..lol. And I thought the one on the steering pump housing was tough to remove.


David, I gotta know.... how did you acquire all of this knowledge on engine building, transmission building and especially turbos?
Did you have somebody teach you this stuff, or is it from a lot of trial and error?

There comes a time where many people simply have the anointing for certain skills and abilities. And for the most part we learn them on our own without any formal training. I've had many ask me how I know so much on computer systems and building them. I simply read alot (which many people don't like to do), and applied what I learned. No formal education needed. Plus having the love of doing something also fuels the desire to obtain and study the knowledge needed to do what we do.

turbokinetic
12-06-2013, 12:56 PM
David, I gotta know.... how did you acquire all of this knowledge on engine building, transmission building and especially turbos?
Did you have somebody teach you this stuff, or is it from a lot of trial and error?

For my work, I do troubleshooting, repairs, and commissioning of big diesel engines. These are for offshore oil/gas facilities and ships. The company sends me to a lot of training. Also, whenever I find something that doesn't seem to make sense, I research it online before guessing and messing up something. So a lot of it is from past experience, a little through trial and error (when I don't think it will cause a big accident if I'm wrong) and the rest is through researching.

Cat uses turbos on every engine made since the 1950's. We have to work with them, and they are basically all the same idea. So it's a familiar procedure to go through the turbo and inspect it and change the parts. As you can see, there is not much to it. Only one rotating shaft, a few bushings and things. It is a very simple device and the only trick is keeping it in balance.


Great...more difficult snap rings..lol. And I thought the one on the steering pump housing was tough to remove.

Yeah, the problem I had here was, the cheap chinese non-hardened metal snapring pliers were no match for the turbo snap ring. I need to get a GOOD set of them. I have a few good ones but they are specialty tips for transmission work, and they don't fit the turbo snap ring.


There comes a time where many people simply have the anointing for certain skills and abilities. And for the most part we learn them on our own without any formal training. I've had many ask me how I know so much on computer systems and building them. I simply read alot (which many people don't like to do), and applied what I learned. No formal education needed. Plus having the love of doing something also fuels the desire to obtain and study the knowledge needed to do what we do.

This is very true!!! Technical stuff has been my interest for ever. I've been tinkering with machinery and electrical stuff since I was a kid. Our family has never been extremely well-off, and mom and dad are careful with spending money. So I've got a lot of experience figuring out how to take care of problems without paying someone else a bunch of money.

turbokinetic
12-06-2013, 08:59 PM
Ok here's the rest of the turbo repair pictures. The center housing was soaking in EvapoRust overnight. This stuff is exellent. It won't damage or affect anything other than rust. I was skeptical that it would work, seeing how "safe" it claims to be. But it is badass. If you use it as directed (there is a temperature requirement) it really works.
The product:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5231.JPG

The result:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5232.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5233.JPG

And there is no chance of leaving blast media in the housing.

Next the bearings and shaft go back in.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5234.JPG

Then the inner part of the thrust bearing journal.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5235.JPG

Then the thrust bearing plate. The outer part of the thrust bearing journal is assembled to the cover, ready to go on.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5238.JPG

Then that assembly slides in and the snap ring goes in. It's a tapered ring to keep vibration to a minimum. Therefore it must be firmly seated by expanding it and tapping on it. As the o-ring compresses, the ring expands into the groove, locking the cover in place.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5239.JPG

Now for the alignment of the parts, for balance reasons. Look at the turbine wheel. See the number "510" between the 2 blades. One slot to the left, there is a round dot cast into the wheel. This aligns to the drill mark on the housing flange. This was the position before teardown.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5240.JPG

The compressor end has an "A" logo (for Airesearch). The first blade to the right (viewed normally) lines up with the scribe mark on the housing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5241.JPG

Then the nut goes on, and tightens to the original position, by lining up the scribe marks placed on them earlier. The mark on the compressor wheel is very small to avoid damaging the wheel. I dotted black Sharpie pen over them to help with visibility.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5242.JPG

Finished CHRA.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5243.JPG

Now to clean the ash and carbon out of the turbine housing. Wire brush wrapped in Scotch Brite works well.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5246.JPG

Result:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5244.JPG

Install the clamps with antiseize on the bolts. Line up the drill mark and tighten it.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5249.JPG

No carbon in there.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5250.JPG

Compressor o-ring
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5251.JPG

This snapring is a tapered ring to compress the o-ring as it wedges into the slot. It's important to expand it forcefully and tap the housings. This will make sure the o-ring is compressed and the housing is fully seated.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5253.JPG

Completed turbo!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5256.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5258.JPG

I forgot to take pictures, but I had to re-drill the actuator bracket mounting holes. They are threaded into the compressor housing. I rotated the housing to give the air hose a less strained alignment with the charge air pipe on the car body. After that, the actuator holes didn't line up. It took a trip to the store to get a M6x1.0 tap set and a 5mm drill bit. But it will be worth it when the car goes back together.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
12-08-2013, 02:48 AM
acquire all of this knowledge

Finding the right technical manuals will always enrich motivated individuals. Years ago, this literature was more widespread, but with time, it has disappeared for various reasons.

Vocational schools tend to be more focused these days on determining which part is bad, and just replace it. Dealerships use trouble-shooting flow charts, so mechanic just follows the instructions. Even Snap-On has a diagnostic program that points the way.

If you look at this 1974 Pontiac Emissions Manual (http://www.pontiacpower.org/pdf/74ponticemissions.pdf), it gives a good overview of theory and operation of various components used. Today, with ECM ignition/fuel systems, its more like a "black box," and very little information about its operation.

So, the auto/truck/etc industries had a paradigm shift from "you fix it" to "you replace it."

Take rebuilding a 700R4 transmission (RWD:GM), most dealerships don't have a mechanic with this experience, but a few do.

Once a person gets hands on experiences with rebuilding stuff (alternators, starters, transmissions, etc), its not hard to learn about other parts to be rebuilt.

But, without the shop tools or experiences, there are limits as to what you can do. For instance, David wanted a shop to do cam bearings; unless one is experienced, its wise to let someone else do it. I've heard more than one story of a do-it-yourselfer screwing the pooch on cam bearings.

In essence, with small steps, and the right tools and learning experiences, one can do a number of mechanical repairs.

turbokinetic
12-12-2013, 02:26 AM
Alright got a small update today!

The first part is from a few days back. This is where Chris and I worked on the weatherstripping. I had pulled some stripping off junk cars, and kept it for projects like this. There are pretty well never any coupes in the junkyard with good weatherstripping. They quit making the coupes so long ago. The 1995 and 1996 cars (all 4 door) have the best weatherstripping. So those will have to be adapted to the coupe.

The trick is to insert a section of the rear sedan door weatherstripping into the front door weatherstripping. Do the insertion at the bottom, so the seam will be out of the weather and less noticable.

As for the critical area, the top rear corner. This is where the stripping always wants to pull apart and fail. The 1995 and 1996 cars have a reinforcement piece on the back. It is glued to the weatherstripping.

This is the back of the rear corner, with the reinforcement piece.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5266.JPG

Piece removed. The bond gets weak with time, and I find it best to pull this off and re-glue it with superglue.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5265.JPG

The reinforced stripping installed, with Gorilla Tape covering the glue joint on the front. This will keep the glued seam protected.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5263.JPG

A small square of this tape, carefully trimmed with a razor blade, makes an inconspicuous corner reinforcement.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5268.JPG

The secondary seal installed on the top of the door, using 3M Super Weatherstripping Adhesive, Black. This helps keep noise and water out.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5264.JPG


Now for the engine!

Got the block back from the machine shop. It's pretty clean, but the inside of the oil gallerys is a little rusty. I used nylon bristle brushes and the pressure washer to clean them out. before assembly. Don't want any debris to damage the new bearings. No dirt in there!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5271.JPG

I had them install wider cam bearings specified for a SBC engine. This will give the camshaft support across the entire journal area. Should help with long life of the engine. This is hard to understand what you are seeing, but it's the cam journal, with the bearing fully supporting it and some bearing extending beyond the journal. Both sides of the journal fully supported.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5277.JPG

Main bearing upper inserts in place.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5279.JPG

Crank in place. Sealant and assembly lube on the cap and bearing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5280.JPG

Mains in and torqued. New timin set re-installed.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5281.JPG

Timing cover on and torqued.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5282.JPG


The original 3.1 pistons. They are all scuffed to some degree or another.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5285.JPG

This is caused by metal-to-metal contact with the cylinder bore. Overheating is a prime cause, as is diluted or contaminated oil. Notice the up-and-down scratches in the blackened area? Other than those accidental scratches, the piston is worn smooth.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5286.JPG

This one is not bad. Notice the left-to-right machining marks on the piston, pretty much all over it? Those are 'knurling' marks which hold oil and help the piston to run with less wear. The new pistons are "coated" on the skirt area. Instead of knurling, they have an antifriction coating applied to the skirts. This will completely prevent scuffing.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5287.JPG

The new pistons have an antifriction coating on the skirts. This will completely prevent scuffing. This is just a parts book illustration but you can see the piston is grey color? That is the coating. It will not come off. I've seen completely destroyed pistons where this coating was still there, on the broken pieces!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/durosheild.JPG

Tomorrow the new pistons are supposed to arrive. Maybe can get them installed on the rods tomorrow.

babyivan
12-12-2013, 04:28 AM
What kind of guide is that on the timing chain?
On my set, it's a spring-loaded nub.

AVTechMan
12-12-2013, 07:23 AM
The block looks great, and the cylinder walls look nice, clean and shiny! Sure hate i'm not there to help with the engine reassembly process :(, but now getting to the good stuff! Oil contamination can do alot of damage to bearings and other critical parts from what I have seen.

This engine, once fully assembled will be a solid runner, and THIS time with no hidden oil starvation issues in the main bearings!

I kinda wonder what the pistons in Danielle look like...hopefully they're in good shape. Weather is currently 8 above here temp wise....no way to do any car work outside right now!!

turbokinetic
12-12-2013, 12:35 PM
What kind of guide is that on the timing chain?
On my set, it's a spring-loaded nub.

That's actually the standard-issue timing chain guide. It is what the factory uses on the 60 degree engines. I beleive the spring loaded tensioner is a better idea, because as the guide wears and the chain stretches, the spring keeps the chain from ever going slack.


The block looks great, and the cylinder walls look nice, clean and shiny! Sure hate i'm not there to help with the engine reassembly process :(, but now getting to the good stuff! Oil contamination can do alot of damage to bearings and other critical parts from what I have seen.

This engine, once fully assembled will be a solid runner, and THIS time with no hidden oil starvation issues in the main bearings!

I kinda wonder what the pistons in Danielle look like...hopefully they're in good shape. Weather is currently 8 above here temp wise....no way to do any car work outside right now!!

Yeah, they do a good job on the blocks there. The cam bearings are well aligned, the cam turns freely with 2 fingers.

Oil contamination is very, VERY bad for the engine. This is a bearing and crankshaft from a 7500 HP V16 turbodiesel. I won't even discuss the cost of this repair. All because some dirt and grit was left inside the external oil supply pipes.

The bearing. This is called a "hot short" failure. It got very hot, and it only took a short time to fail! Oil clearance was filled with dirt particles, causing the bearing to seize up. Hoewever the engine cranksahft, flywheel and generator rotor weigh more than 15 tons. So it couldn't just seize to a halt.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/Crank_3600 (2).JPG

Damage to crank journal.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/Crank_3600 (1).JPG

Crank being hoisted out of ship's engine room
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/Crank_3600 (0).JPG

Above deck.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/Crank_3600 (3).JPG

babyivan
12-12-2013, 06:36 PM
holy fuck, that thing is HUGE (That's what she said) :eek3:

turbokinetic
12-12-2013, 09:26 PM
holy fuck, that thing is HUGE (That's what she said) :eek3:

LOL.

That it is. Took us one month to overhaul the engine, there in Schiedam, Holland.

turbokinetic
12-13-2013, 02:02 AM
Today I got half the pistons installed. Had to stop after three because only had 3 rod bearings. I guess the guy thought the engine needed a "set of bearings" for each bank, and I only asked for one set. So much incompetence at the parts stores these days... :rant:

Machine shop installed pistons on rods today. It was quick and easy because they had a special heating stove to put the rods in.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5296.JPG

Going in with #1. Got rubber caps on the rod bolts to protect the crank journal.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5297.JPG

No gouges in the journal with the caps.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5299.JPG

Assembly lubed #2 cap going on.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5301.JPG

First 3 in. All rods have side clearence and the engine turns by hand easily. Looking good, but frustrated I don't have the bearings.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5302.JPG
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5304.JPG

Later,
David

85_Ciera_Rebuild
12-13-2013, 02:48 AM
RE: 7500 HP V16 turbodiesel

Symptom(s) of this failure? Oil pressure drop? etc

turbokinetic
12-13-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: 7500 HP V16 turbodiesel

Symptom(s) of this failure? Oil pressure drop? etc

I was in the engine room when this happened. There were no abnormal noises or indications before the shutdown. The engine was started up, ran about 5 minutes no-load for warmup, and then the protection system shutdown the engine. The message was "Crankcase Oil Mist Detected." When I looked at the oil mist detector, there was visible smoke coming out of the crankcase vent.

Most large engines have an Oil Mist Detector system (http://www.schaller.de/products/oil-mist-detector-visatron/product-range-vn87plus/technical-description.html) which will detect lube oil vapor mist caused by overheated mechanical parts. This is a safety system to prevent a flash fire and crankcase explosion.

It did its job and stopped the engine before there was any flash fire or uncontained failure.

turbokinetic
12-15-2013, 12:08 AM
I got a few more things done today, but not what I had hoped to do. Goal was to have the engine fully assembled, but that didn't happen. I took apart the 200 mile almost new oil pump to inspect it, and found massive casting porosity in the housing. VERY disappointed. I don't know if it was a contributin factor or not to the original main bearing failure - but it is definately not going back together like this.

All pistons / rods in and torqued.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5307.JPG

Shiney side up....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5308.JPG

Dowel pins and headgasket in place.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5309.JPG

Heads on and torqued.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5311.JPG

Then the manifold....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5312.JPG

And valvetrain!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5313.JPG

This will be the last update for a while because I just got two overseas work assignments. Could be days, possibly a month or more. I've sprayed the engine with VCI and wrapped it in plastic until I return.

Sincerely,
David

Overclocked
12-15-2013, 12:46 AM
You're making awesome progress! It's very cool to see the engine coming together over time. When it is completed you should film its first start-up for us to see on youtube:)
Are you going to paint the block Chevy orange?

Too bad that you won't be making updates for a while. They are really quite entertaining.


Also, Do you have a link for the secondary seal you installed on the top of the door? I'm interested in installing something like it on my wagon.

billkandi
12-15-2013, 12:47 AM
Maybe gone for Christmas? THAT SUX. Merry Christmas anyway my friend.

turbokinetic
12-15-2013, 01:03 AM
You're making awesome progress! It's very cool to see the engine coming together over time. When it is completed you should film its first start-up for us to see on youtube:)
Are you going to paint the block Chevy orange?

Too bad that you won't be making updates for a while. They are really quite entertaining.


Also, Do you have a link for the secondary seal you installed on the top of the door? I'm interested in installing something like it on my wagon.

Thanks, I am happy with the condition of the car's progress, but would have preferred to have it done by now!

Chris wants the engine to look like it did originally, which was black painted on the iron parts and bare aluminum on the aluminum parts. I've never liked bright colored engines, it just seems to show every little bit of road grime and dust and oil seepage. In an old 70's car, or a hulled out racecar it looks like it belongs there. But in a resto-mod job which will be a fully functional highway car - I beleive it will look better with a stock appearing engine.

The secondary door seal is standard-issue from GM on the 95 and 96 A-body cars. I have simply peeled it off cars at the junkyard using a razor blade. Then use weatherstrip glue to re-attach it since the 2-sided foam tape will only stick once. Because the coupes were discontinued before the secondary seal was installed by GM, you 'll have to use secondary seal from two sedan doors to have enough material to do the coupe door.


Maybe gone for Christmas? THAT SUX. Merry Christmas anyway my friend.

Yeah, definately gone for Christmas. I prefer to stay busy and not dwell on Christmas past. This time of year is very hard on me.

Sincerely,
David

AVTechMan
12-15-2013, 01:13 AM
Thanks, I am happy with the condition of the car's progress, but would have preferred to have it done by now!

Chris wants the engine to look like it did originally, which was black painted on the iron parts and bare aluminum on the aluminum parts. I've never liked bright colored engines, it just seems to show every little bit of road grime and dust and oil seepage. In an old 70's car, or a hulled out racecar it looks like it belongs there. But in a resto-mod job which will be a fully functional highway car - I beleive it will look better with a stock appearing engine.

The secondary door seal is standard-issue from GM on the 95 and 96 A-body cars. I have simply peeled it off cars at the junkyard using a razor blade. Then use weatherstrip glue to re-attach it since the 2-sided foam tape will only stick once. Because the coupes were discontinued before the secondary seal was installed by GM, you 'll have to use secondary seal from two sedan doors to have enough material to do the coupe door.



Yeah, definately gone for Christmas. I prefer to stay busy and not dwell on Christmas past. This time of year is very hard on me.

Sincerely,
David

This time of year is hard on me as well (in different ways), but I make the best of it so staying busy often helps with this.

If a new oil pump is needed David let me know and will work on that while you're away. I doubt it would've been the cause of the original bearing failure but one can't tell. Merry Christmas as well while you're away! At least Camilla will be safe from the snows here up north for the time being.

And yes, I am not a fan of loud engine block colors....stock will be just fine for me. Not a car that will be going to car shows with chrome filled displays. :)

babyivan
12-15-2013, 01:26 AM
Sad to see you're going away for a bit, the board will surely miss your presence!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to ya!

turbokinetic
12-15-2013, 01:58 AM
This time of year is hard on me as well (in different ways), but I make the best of it so staying busy often helps with this.

If a new oil pump is needed David let me know and will work on that while you're away. I doubt it would've been the cause of the original bearing failure but one can't tell. Merry Christmas as well while you're away! At least Camilla will be safe from the snows here up north for the time being.

I beleive I can get them to stand behind it because it's an extremely obvious manufacturing defect.


And yes, I am not a fan of loud engine block colors....stock will be just fine for me. Not a car that will be going to car shows with chrome filled displays. :)

I always tell people that chrome does not make it fast and does not make it last. That money is much better spent on other areas, such as a better valvetrain parts, ball bearing turbo etc. The over-chromed guys like to stand there by it with hood open, and TALK ABOUT how fast it is. I prefer an actual demonstration of the capabilities! You can't see the black paint on the engine with hood closed going down the road anyway... :)



Sad to see you're going away for a bit, the board will surely miss your presence!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to ya!

Yeah, that's how it goes. Like I have said many times. I did my time working on cars for a living. Now it's just a hobby. Got to go do my "real job" for a while!

Marry Christmas and Happy New year to you too.

Intrahh
12-16-2013, 08:28 AM
This will be the last update for a while because I just got two overseas work assignments. Could be days, possibly a month or more. I've sprayed the engine with VCI and wrapped it in plastic until I return.

Sincerely,
David

I wish you the best of luck on your assignments. I always love looking at this threat. Can't wait for update. Merry Christmas, btw! :)

turbokinetic
01-01-2014, 11:19 PM
Well, I'm finally home from Africa! Only have a few days but hope to get engine back in the car soon.

I did this short video on prelube of the engine, using electric drill. Made 65 PSI.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir3-aJpL6OU

Sincerely,
David

babyivan
01-01-2014, 11:23 PM
What did you do in Africa, might I ask.

turbokinetic
01-01-2014, 11:39 PM
What did you do in Africa.......

Suffered.

A lot.

Just kidding! I was working on a drillship. It was one I had worked on in China for powerplant commissioning. They had a few false alarms on the engine and generator system. I had to troubleshoot and repair this, as well as give some training to the crew on the gensets.

It was a quick trip and I didn't have time to sight-see. It was Benin, a western African country and there's not much nature or tourism industry there.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
01-02-2014, 12:24 AM
prelube of the engine, using electric drill. Made 65 PSI.

B23F Volvo has intermediate shaft on timing belt circuit, and it is hooked to distributor and oil pump; as such, one can turn it by hand.

Interesting, after priming it, I hooked up a new oil-pressure sender unit via ohm meter, and turned it by hand. It took some 30 seconds before oil-light turned on when I quit turning it.

So, it held about 5 psi for 30 seconds. Engine runs fine...after some 500 miles so far.

turbokinetic
01-02-2014, 02:15 AM
B23F Volvo has intermediate shaft on timing belt circuit, and it is hooked to distributor and oil pump; as such, one can turn it by hand.

Interesting, after priming it, I hooked up a new oil-pressure sender unit via ohm meter, and turned it by hand. It took some 30 seconds before oil-light turned on when I quit turning it.

So, it held about 5 psi for 30 seconds. Engine runs fine...after some 500 miles so far.

Glad it's running well! Yeah, if there's any air trapped in the system it will be compressed by the oil pressure. Then the air will re-expand and maintain oil pressure, kind of like an accumulator. My 88 Ciera XC has the oil pressure fuel pump switch. If the car is started cold and then stopped; the fuel pump will run for 10 or 20 seconds afterwards for this same reason.

Well, the engine is about ready to be re-coupled to the transmission!

Oilpan on. The front by the timing gear housing is "strange." The rubber gasket had to be cut and there is a small cork piece there. This is one of the differences in this early engine and the "newer" iron head engines.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5341.JPG

As for the non-used speed timing sensor hole - a 3/4" cup plug and a little bit of Loctite capped this off. Looks like it came from the factory!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5343.JPG

Almost done. Tomorrow hope to get the trans re-connected and work towards getting it back in the car.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5346.JPG

Sincerely,
David

Duke George V
01-03-2014, 12:52 AM
Are you going to switch over to the new "wishbone" torque strut? They're steel, and much stronger than the cast aluminum dogbone.

turbokinetic
01-03-2014, 01:23 AM
Are you going to switch over to the new "wishbone" torque strut? They're steel, and much stronger than the cast aluminum dogbone.

On this car, no. I need to get it going as soon as possible and the existing one is brand new.

When I do the build on my 86 GS, I may change out to the steel one.

Intrahh
01-04-2014, 10:27 PM
Looking great. You know, all of this makes me want to try to put a turbo on my Celeb. Or maybe one of those 3.8s from a Century? How smooth would that go in?

turbokinetic
01-04-2014, 11:29 PM
Looking great. You know, all of this makes me want to try to put a turbo on my Celeb. Or maybe one of those 3.8s from a Century? How smooth would that go in?

The 3.8 engine was designed for turbocharging from the beginning. With no internal modifications, using an old engine, it will take 10 PSI with chip and injector change only. At that it is going to be in the 250 to 275 HP range. And the torque will be phenominal. I have boosted 2 "unmodified" 3.8's with great success. Very solid engine.

If you boost a "stock" 3.8 I have a MAP tune for a 7730 ECM (used on all the 2.8 / 3.1 cars) which can run the 3.8 turbo.

Camilla Update!

She lives!!!

Today Project Camilla rides again!

Sorry I have not been posting many pictures because I've had many many other obligations come up.

Powertrain ready to go back in:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5350.JPG

Sheilding on the front manifold to protect the wiring and A/C compressor switches.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5353.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5354.JPG

Going down.....
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5356.JPG

And it's in!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5357.JPG

Everything connected up - ready to go!
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Engine/IMG_5367.JPG

And out the door for a test drive!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGZXdv90vwQ

I am very happy because the engine runs great and there are no leaks!

Also the transmission is shifting perfectly. The original problem (high pressure and second-gear starts) was a jammed valve. The modulator boost valve spool had some factory "identification grooves" in it. These grooves caused it to get jammed on the clip which holds the boost valve bushing into the transmission valve body. This is something all the transmission guys should note well, as it is a real bad GOTCHA since it jams sometimes and sometimes works.

I had never seen a "grooved stem" boost valve before. It is a very high ratio boost valve, therefore desirable for a high performance car. Unfortunately, it is vulnerable to getting jammed. All the other boost valves have smooth stem and the clip will slide freely. I simply machined off the grooves so it is not going to jam.

Boost valves. The one on the right is more common. The one on the left has one raised ridge on it to identify it as extra high ratio.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_5371.JPG

You can see this groove through the clip slot.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_5372.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_5373.JPG

Installed in valve body, normal condition. (this is from parts transmission)
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_5374.JPG

Valve jammed. The pin is in all the way.
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Transmission/IMG_5375.JPG

The pin jammed in has same effect as modulator sensing high manifold pressure / no vacuum. Normally the hydraulic oil from the modulator circuit presses this valve in the higher the engine load. Then the valve is pressing a spring. This spring is adding pressure to the pump regulating valve to bring up the transmission charge pressure. There are 2 boost valves working together to control the pressure. This one is the one that does most of the work when driving the car. The other is for Reverse only.

AVTechMan
01-05-2014, 02:42 AM
Camilla sounds great! Regarding that oil pump defect, which you noted before you had to leave for Africa, didn't have any issues with exchange?

Its great to finally see her on the road again. I'm sure she will be much more efficient once tuned! I noticed that you turned your Olds Convertible around as you backed out to the road.

turbokinetic
01-05-2014, 01:10 PM
Camilla sounds great! Regarding that oil pump defect, which you noted before you had to leave for Africa, didn't have any issues with exchange?

Its great to finally see her on the road again. I'm sure she will be much more efficient once tuned! I noticed that you turned your Olds Convertible around as you backed out to the road.

As for the oilpump, I was able to get that replaced. The casting porosity was a manufacturing defect. It would have lead to a short life of the pump, so they replaced it.

The ground is unlevel in the covered parking area where the Olds convertible is parked. There was water standing in there, with the car's right front wheel sitting in 3 inches of water. Also I had to walk through this water and mud to get to the air compressor. I bought a pallet of concrete pavers to make a walk path in there to the air compressor (out of the mud). So I moved the Olds out and leveled the area where the water was standing, then put pavers.

Duke George V
01-05-2014, 05:07 PM
Awesome. The things you are able to do with these cars are amazing.

On the subject of 3.8s, can the 3800 Series I (or TPI) from C and H cars be boosted in the same fashion, ie largely unmodified, as the older 3.8 used in the A cars? I'm wondering if my borrowed '92 Bonneville would be a good candidate for MORE POWER.

turbokinetic
01-11-2014, 02:34 AM
Awesome. The things you are able to do with these cars are amazing.

On the subject of 3.8s, can the 3800 Series I (or TPI) from C and H cars be boosted in the same fashion, ie largely unmodified, as the older 3.8 used in the A cars? I'm wondering if my borrowed '92 Bonneville would be a good candidate for MORE POWER.

Yes they can. The engine strength is even better after the on-center bore spacing was introduced with the LN3. It would laugh at a well tuned 10 PSI.

Intrahh
01-12-2014, 06:40 AM
Wow, she sounds great. Now would the 3800 go into my '88 sedan with no modifications? I assume I'll need the tranny too.

turbokinetic
01-23-2014, 03:04 AM
Alright, here's a mini-update for Camilla today!

I am having trouble with my camera and plan to buy a new one soon. That's why I haven't been able to successfully make a video of the new engine. Hopefully I can get one soon.

I have been wanting to experiment with amplifiers added to these factory radios. Chris ordered a miniature 300W Clarion XC amplifier. It was not expensive. The unit is about the size of a fluorescent lamp ballast. We vacillated about the amplifier placement, and anywhere but the dash would have involved making a long wiring harness and a lot of extra work. Turns out there is JUST ENOUGH ROOM in the dash, immediately below the radio, for the amp to sit there. I installed spare wiring connectors from the JY on the amplifier so it plugs directly into the radio and car harness. Completely modular. The only external connection is the power supply, which goes to an unused point on the fusebox.

Here is the amp in the dash, before the radio goes in:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5385.JPG

That amp is very small, but it is rated at 300W continuous. The factory radio is rated 100W. So it's 3x as powerful. With the aftermarket speakers in the car, it is pretty strong. The only thing about this amp is, it does not like the engine to be cranked. If the radio is on while the engine is cranking, the amplifier will go into "protect" mode. I will contact the manufacturer about this.

Also got the tachometer installed and connected up.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5400.JPG

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5396.JPG

Night mode:
http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5395.JPG

It is a Sunpro Supertach II, which is designed to go on the steering column, with a clamp. This column is not going to work with the clamp, so I had to mount it with 2 screws. I took the wheel off, so I could verify no damage to the parts of the column. The screws have to be short.

http://68.209.87.173/85_Celebrity/Build/IMG_5387.JPG

So that's it for today!

turbokinetic
01-23-2014, 11:04 PM
So today I managed to get some satisfaction out of the camera!

Got this video recorded, showing the performance of the engine....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Q6eRNCZMg

eurosport84
01-23-2014, 11:52 PM
Holy crap. :eek5:

turbokinetic
01-24-2014, 12:19 AM
Holy crap. :eek5:

LOL

It's not exactly like you remember it, is it? ;)

AVTechMan
01-24-2014, 06:40 AM
WHOOOAAAHHH NELLEY!!! :D:D:D

Looks like the speedo needle was having a time figuring itself out on what to do next when you gunned it! Over 5,000 RPM's...wow. I wonder how fast Camilla was going when the needle went WELL past 85? LOL. Guess I should've looked into that police speedo after all! My brother's gonna have a cow when he sees this! Looked like it only took about 10-15 seconds to reach from 0-60.




Holy crap. :eek5:

Priceless. :rock: