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SilentWing
04-09-2009, 08:03 PM
Hi, I just joined because I have some questions about my Olds.

First my car info:
1994 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera S 3100 V6 SFI 4t60e trans (FWD obviously)

What I've done so far:
We (me and my fiance) just finished putting the engine and transmission back in it. We took the engine and trans out along with dropping the fuel tank and pulling the lines to get the underbody and fenderwells sandblasted along with the entire engine bay, the interior of the trunk, front and rear steel bumpers, behind the header panel, etc.... Got everything that was sandblasted painted and the underbody re-coated. We're starting it for the first time since the work tonight cause we had a few last minuet ends to tie up.

We put a new timing chain in, new trans pan, new intake gaskets, EGR gasket, etc while the engine was out. My fiance ported and polished the upper intake manifold.... long story short it's got a gen 1 head on one side because we found it was cracked when we did the head gaskets 3 years ago and found the gen 1 head at a steal.

Ok... lets see... I've got a K&N planning on putting a CAI in within the month, and other than that and more than regular maint. it's pretty much stock except for the aluminum rims we put on last winter.

On to the questions:

Number one... I'm planning on getting BMW e36 projector headlights for it, and I can't seem to get a clear answer on what's needed to make them fit (I know not an engine question but figured I'd add it in.

Number two... When we pulled the plugs to do a compression test on it we noticed the middle part (haha am I showing my inferior knowledge?) was only slightly less brown than fire engine red, with much more red than brown. I was wondering if anyone knows what this means? Are the plugs the wrong temp?

Number three... . When we did the compression test we noticed that two cylinders on the same side of the head but opposite sides of the motor were running at 15 and 20% compression loss through the intake valves, the rest were at 0-2% compression loss. The engine was completely drained and on a stand at the time, could this account for the compression loss?

Number four, my big question... In a couple years or less I'm planning on swapping engines. My first impulse was to swap in a 3.8 which as I'm sure you all know involves changing the ECM, half shafts, and transmission. This car is my daily driver, and after thinking about it more I'm wondering if I should just go with a 3400 swap from a newer impala for a nice torque increase with minimal modification needed. But, I was also wondering about putting a 3500 in. I'd like some opinions on what's worth it and what's not... like I said I have time to think about it...
My only concern would be the amount of involvement in putting a 3.8 in and whether or not it's really worth it?

Oh... and there is one more question I have. The guy who owned it before me was teaching his sister how to drive in it and she side swiped a guard rail. We already replaced the front fender and welded in a new quarter panel, but I'm conflicted on what to do with the doors. I'd like to pull them out if possible, but the crease goes all the way down the door by the door jam on the front and rear doors. I don't have a ton of money, so what in your opinion would be the best way to go about it? I'm trying to get it ready for paint this summer... but I'm stuck on the doors.

Sorry for such a long post, I appreciate any and all input. Don't judge me too harshly, I am female and have only begun learning about the wide world of cars 4 years ago in my spare time lol.

Thanks

Prospeeder
04-09-2009, 08:15 PM
get new ones at the wreckin yard, all abody doors are the same (except for the seatbelts, some are door mounted, some arnt) Doors at wreckin yards can be had for pretty cheap if you dont include all the guts

SilentWing
04-09-2009, 08:17 PM
Yeah... now that I think about it a stud welder and slide hammer would probably cost me almost as much as newer doors... duh me. Thanks

Tuddi
04-09-2009, 08:40 PM
Hi and welcome SilentWing.

As far as I know, doors from a junk yard can be had for around $65 each when in good condition.

.... and that's when the buyer is a dirty male that hasn't seen a bath or shower for several days. You being a female, I'm sure you can get both doors for $50 or thereabout. :)

SilentWing
04-09-2009, 08:58 PM
Thanks for the welcome... I wish I could get both for 50... junk yards tend to try and screw me over, the good one I used to go to is 68 miles away, but even they're stingy when it comes to bigger body parts. I'll have to call around and see, hopefully if it's gutted and all (I don't want to give up my window tint anyways) it'll be cheap enough.

There was one place also around the 68-mile-away-yard that would sell me the front for 75 without glass... wonder if he'd drop the price if I said I don't need any innards either?

Do you know about the headlights by chance? That's my next up-and-coming project once the engine is in....

Turbobuick88
04-09-2009, 11:18 PM
Hi! Welcome to the site its nice to know there are more A-body lovers out there.
About your ?'s...

1. OK for the lights you might have to modify the headlight bezel to make them fit. I would try making some out of fiberglass to match up nicely with the car when you repaint it. If your going to get the lights out of the junkyard cut the wiring for the headlights and the prongs so you can splice the wires to the exciting ones(because they probably don't match up with the old prongs)

2.was only slightly less brown than fire engine red, with much more red than brown. Was this on the tester or the cylinder walls???

3. yes the engine being on a stand and being drained could effect the test. Did you do anything to the valves when you ported the heads? cause you could have leaking valves.

4. 3.8 is a great choice for a swap right now I am building up a 3.8 supercharged series II from a Buick Park Avenue Ultra. I am putting in tons of money into it with aftermarket GTP parts. about 500 HP is the goal! The 3.4 isnt bad either my friend has a turbo(aftermarket) 3.4 in his 03 Impala and it gives my Buick a run for its money!
Another engine to look at is the 3.4 DOHC in Lumina Z34 and Eurosports.

5. Junkyards are the best place to look. Check out my Small Yard Run thread and see if you like the doors on the blue Ciera S (I can get them for cheap sence I know the guys who run it) I could ship them to you if you want.

LordDurock
04-10-2009, 12:02 AM
idk know much about the different generations of heads on 3100. but it best to have a mechian shop check any used head you buy for anything aluminum ones exspeasly , and you or them do a valve job. turbobuick88 made a great comment on the port job.

as for motors......diesel is the only way jk......a 3.8 NA (naturally asspersted) might be a good thing to look into as well.

doors and part a noted but the above are the best way to go, just remember the seat belt thing.

oh and welcome

skalor
04-10-2009, 12:52 AM
What do you mean by Gen I head?? I ask because a 3100 is a Gen III 60* V6 and I don't think you're using the proper nomenclature.

Prospeeder
04-10-2009, 02:17 AM
Gen I were carbs? and Gen II was MPFI right?

turbokinetic
04-10-2009, 02:33 AM
Gen I were carbs? and Gen II was MPFI right?

AFAIK (and I'm not a nomenclature expert) Gen I 60° V6 was the iron-head engine. This was the carbureted, or early MPFI engines such as the 2.8 Turbo in my 86 T-Type.

Gen II was the 2.8 and 3.1 aluminum head MPFI motors. Said 2.8 or 3.1 on the manifold top.

Finally, Gen III was the 3x00 series SFI motors that said 3100 3400 or 3500.

Then there is the mighty 3900 which is a 60° motor but has changes to the block and everything else to accomodate the large displacement and VVT system.

Here is a good writeup. Don't know if you have to be logged in to that forum to see this or not, but here goes:
http://www.60degreev6.com/content/60%C2%BAV6_Family_Tree

Thanks,
David

85_Ciera_Rebuild
04-10-2009, 02:49 AM
Here is a good writeup. http://www.60degreev6.com/content/60%C2%BAV6_Family_Tree

I think one of the forum members there also wrote up this piece.

GM 60-Degree V6 engine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_60-Degree_V6_engine)

LordDurock
04-10-2009, 03:08 AM
reading that is sounds like the Gen I and gen III heats are very differint. could be tha problem

SilentWing
04-10-2009, 03:24 AM
Well it's up and running.... to clarify a few things:

I meant I have a Gen II head I believe on a Gen III, I've ran it like this since we did the head gaskets a few years ago and it does just fine (I know... shocks me too). Sorry, I'm not up on all my lingo and had to wait for my fiance to get home to set me straight.

As far as the fire engine red goes.... I'm talking about on the spark plug insulator.... they all have a very red hue to it there.

Unfortunately due to the fact that I have a different generation head on my car we didn't touch the heads with the porting and polishing, just the upper intake (upper plenum). So I don't think that had anything to do with the compression loss. We JUST got my car up and running again at 10pm my time so we'll do another compression test as soon as we have a chance. (We still have to put on the header panel, weld the rocker panel on, put the fenders on, etc..etc...etc...)

I think that addressed everything everyone said. I'll check out the junkyard post right now and I'll let you know, might take me a month or so to get the money together.

Thanks (yet) again, and if anyone knows about those spark plugs I'd really appreciate any input on that.

Quick extra question... I know that the wiring harness, ECM, transmission and half shafts need to be changed to put a 3.8 in it. What I was wondering is if anyone could make up a simple list for me of any other modifications that would need to be done to put a 3.8 in my car. To clarify exactly what I want, I want to put a generation II or III 3.8 into my OBD I 3.1 94 ciera. Also, if anyone knows if the mounts are in different places etc I'd appreciate any information on that too.

SilentWing
04-11-2009, 06:36 PM
I've been looking online for a reason for the reason my spark plug insulation could be red and the only thing I could find that was even close to an answer was that it could be caused by cheap gas with alot of additives. The only thing is, I've been using BP Premium with that invigorate... which means (I assume) that cheap gas couldn't be the cause of it. I'm still wondering if anyone here knows what could cause that, since I'm planning on returning my car to the road this coming week I want to make sure everything is running smoothy. Typically I wouldn't worry since my fiance has his L1 master tech certificate but he doesn't know the answer to this one.

Also waiting on an answer about my future 3.8 swap...

Sorry for the bump

Tuddi
04-11-2009, 06:43 PM
Can you provide a close-up photo of the reddish sparkplug... and preferably a photo of one of the others as well for comparison?

Here a comparison chart: http://www.superstreetonline.com/techarticles/130_0703_reading_spark_plugs/photo_03.html

SilentWing
04-11-2009, 07:31 PM
I've looked through tons of charts, none seem to have the same color...

But I will get a picture for you, I just have to wait until tomorrow since I'm leaving in a few to go to madison to meet up with my brother. I'll definately get pictures for you though, sorry I didn't think of that earlier

turbokinetic
04-11-2009, 07:51 PM
Quick extra question... I know that the wiring harness, ECM, transmission and half shafts need to be changed to put a 3.8 in it. What I was wondering is if anyone could make up a simple list for me of any other modifications that would need to be done to put a 3.8 in my car. To clarify exactly what I want, I want to put a generation II or III 3.8 into my OBD I 3.1 94 ciera. Also, if anyone knows if the mounts are in different places etc I'd appreciate any information on that too.

OK there are a few folks which have put L67 engines (this is the super 3800 II) in these cars, and can give more info than I. But I can give you a start! You will want to get the whole powertrain package (engine with all accessories and harness; transmission with all brackets and mounts, and PCM with all sensors.)

The 3800's with a 4T65E transmission have the correct bolt holes in the tranny case for A-Body mounts, if the transmission is a 1999 or older model. I used a 1997 transmission for my car, and all the mounts bolted right up with no modifications. Skalor used a newer tranny and was able to build a mount for his transmission.

The CV shafts are a different story. I used a HD-series transmission. The RT side CV shaft is different between HD and non-HD transmissions. I don't know about using the non-HD trans. But I suspect that there are plenty of CV shafts that fit without modification since they used the non-HD trans in the A-Body cars from the factory. Maybe someone can clarify?!?:dunno:

Here is what I ended up using to build up a set of CV shafts to install a 4T65EHD transmission (from a 97 Riviera) into a 1984 Century with JA2 heavy-duty suspension...

RIGHT-side assembly is made up of:
-Inner joint, complete - 97 Riviera (4T65EHD RT spline is different than 440T4 or 125C spline)
-Shaft - Riviera LEFT shaft (shorter than Century RT shaft because HD trans is longer than 440T4)
-Outer Joint:
--INNER RACE from Riviera (larger internal spline to fit HD shaft)
--OUTER HOUSING to fit JA2 A-Body wheel hub spline.
--Cage and balls same for either style joint but used from Riviera joint.

LEFT side assembly is made up of:
-Outer joint, complete - 84 Century JA2.
-Shaft - 86 Century with 440T4 (4 speed)
-Inner joint, complete - 84 Century 125C 3 speed (125C LT spline and 4T65EHD LT spline are same)

Sounds crazy - but as assembled, both shafts have an acceptable amount of plunge depth and lock into the trans and hubs properly! Has over 3000 miles on them with no problems.

Here is the trans swap thread with pictures of the shafts.
http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1589

As for the engine mounts, (under the oilpan and on top for torque strut) you will probably need to find the mount brackets from a 3300 and put them on the 3800. (I used an LG3 3.8SFI engine which already had mounts on it for my car.)

You'll definately need a re-tuning system (such as a HP Tuners) to turn off all the diagnostics in the new PCM, for functions you will not be using. Things like after-catalyst oxygen sensors and pressurized fuel tank diagnostics, VATS antitheft etc. will need to be turned off. Then you will need to recalibrate the speed sensor for your tires, too probably. In other words you really will need the tuner setup.

You'll also need the complete wiring shcematic for the donor car (that you got the powertrain and wiring from) and your car. With this you can draw up a map of what wires go where on the powertrain, and how to pin the connector to plug it into the car.

Hope this gives you a good start. Hope someone else can chime in and fill in the gaps I couldn't. :)

Thanks,
David

SilentWing
04-11-2009, 08:57 PM
Wow thanks, that's freggin sweet what you did with the CV shafts, I thought I'd have to send them to a shop for that.

That's a ton of stuff (and going to take a ton of money). Do you know by chance (just because I'm still weighing my options) if the new 3500's will work with the 4t60e's or would I have to upgrade to a 4t65e? I know that too would take quite a bit of modification, but my only other option would be to use a 3400 which is, from what I've heard, very difficult to modify.

Which brings up another question, could the 3400 be turbocharged at all? I know that the 3100 can be to an extent. I'm only thinking 3400 because of the ease of dropping it in (even if I do have my heart set on a 3.8). Of course I wouldn't go with a DOHC because that timing chain looks narsty...

Oh decisions decisions.....

turbokinetic
04-11-2009, 09:18 PM
Wow thanks, that's freggin sweet what you did with the CV shafts, I thought I'd have to send them to a shop for that.

That's a ton of stuff (and going to take a ton of money). Do you know by chance (just because I'm still weighing my options) if the new 3500's will work with the 4t60e's or would I have to upgrade to a 4t65e? I know that too would take quite a bit of modification, but my only other option would be to use a 3400 which is, from what I've heard, very difficult to modify.

Which brings up another question, could the 3400 be turbocharged at all? I know that the 3100 can be to an extent. I'm only thinking 3400 because of the ease of dropping it in (even if I do have my heart set on a 3.8). Of course I wouldn't go with a DOHC because that timing chain looks narsty...

Oh decisions decisions.....

The main difference in the 4T60E and 4T65R is that the 4T65R has one additional function that is electronic. The 4T60E has a vacuum modulator to control the transmission charge pressure. The 4T65E has an electric solenoid valve that is controlled by the ECM, to control the pressure. The ECM has to be wired and programmed for the transmission you use.

On the shafts - I have alot of used parts to play with, so I was able to figure that one out, plus two members here on this forum gave me some pointers.

The 3400 can be turbocharged. So can the 3.8 :D ... The 3.8 is a much stronger engine and can take way more boost without breakage though!!!

When you get into this kind of torque, you will need a 4T65E transmission. Trust me...

Dunno about the 3500, from what I hear it is similar to the 3400, and similar in its swapability.

Take care!
David

SilentWing
04-11-2009, 09:26 PM
Just wanted to say thank you again, you definately answered all my questions and then some.... tis much appreciated.

Prospeeder
04-11-2009, 09:46 PM
Dont forget theres a 44T04-HD/4T60-HD used in Turbo grand prixs, and maybe supercharged bonnevilles.

turbokinetic
04-11-2009, 10:48 PM
Just wanted to say thank you again, you definately answered all my questions and then some.... tis much appreciated.

No problem! Glad to help.

Just let us know how the project goes. You have obviously got some serious time spent on your car to have blasted the underbody with the engine out! Keep up the good work!

Later,
David

turbokinetic
04-12-2009, 02:41 AM
Dont forget theres a 44T04-HD/4T60-HD used in Turbo grand prixs, and maybe supercharged bonnevilles.


Did the 440T4-HD have the same removable FD housing as the newer trannies?

Prospeeder
04-13-2009, 09:14 PM
ummmm well its exactly the same trans as te 4T60 just beefy parts and differe nt TC