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beretta2800
11-15-2013, 07:31 PM
Hey Guys, I'm new here. I just got a 1987 Celebrity wagon (which my wife has affectionately dubbed "Ginger") 2.8l V6 with the 125c transmission. She has 53k miles on her and she is amazingly clean for a NY car.. Not a Eurosport, but It has the JA2 option and the third row seat like I wanted.

I am a Chevrolet Technician and have been spoiled by all of the new features. I also have been jaded by the quality issues, in recent years in a number of different product lines; Its why I bought Ginger.

One other thing I have noticed is that Fuel economy has not made leaps and bounds since the end of the eighties; cars vans and trucks are bigger, heavier, and are less aerodynamic (frontal area anyway) than their counterparts in the beginning of the nineties (think Lumina, Lumina APV, Beretta, and C/K 1500) without being much more capable.
Most cars I deal with besides the Cruze and Volt get around 30 mpg on the highway. Traverse is a joke getting less than 20mpg average. I need better quality with improved mileage and high storage capacity... Also something bigger than my Saturn SL for my growing family.

Enter the wagon.

One of my favorite cars since I started my career as a tech has been the 2004-2007 Malibu Maxx. While not known for it's amazing design or superior interior ergonomics it sure is super peppy for a family car, has decent storage with the hatch and all examples I have checked average right around 30 mpg @average speed of around 25-30 mph, that's an awesome real world average number for a MPFI V6 car that weighs 3500 pounds driving around town!
The drive train is pretty simple too; pushrod SFI 3.5L v6 mated to a 4t45e transmission. No Direct injection, no VVT, no dual mode intake.

I wanted to apply this formula to a celebrity wagon. The A-body wagon weighs around 2800 pounds (allegedly) and has a much lower belt line and roof line than Malibu Maxx. Another added benefit is the Wagon's length. Longer cars create less drag. I hope to get a real weight reading soon.
Ginger has no roof racks or rear spoiler which I considered a plus. The 2.8 gives it modest power but it lacks sufficient torque for around town efficiency. The 125c is the biggest downfall, though, since it has no overdrive.

I have only this winter to complete this project since our aforementioned Saturn was K.O.'ed by a Cirrus two days after we bought Ginger, forcing us to use my old winter beater, the "Crappy Cavvy".

So here is the plan: Repair interior (headliner, stereo, Raspberrypi media center possibility, gauges and some odds and ends), repair exterior (fix rust bubbles forming along bottom edge of fender panels and change car's color from "pea green" to something more attractive.), Upgrade braking system (weighing my options, but definitely want four wheel disc) and the wheel/tire package to 16" GP cross lace wheels, lower suspension a little and install u-van sway bar and air shocks to prevent bottoming out with a load. Engine and transmission swap for LA1 with LX9 topend with 4t45e transmission from a 1999 Alero. Cat delete and free flowing exhaust, Aero mods; I want to make a full belly pan and create a better front air dam to direct air around the vehicle.

Feel free to comment, I won't be offended if you question my ideas.

thesam1984
11-15-2013, 11:00 PM
Sounds nice, pics please!!!! I love wagons but my wife does not and having a truck means I dont need one... I purposely held out for JA2 also because of the wheels available (90 was the first year they were standard... ) And the pea green is the very rare fern green color which is a love it or hate it color (I personally love it). My sedan was plane jane silver when I bought it. Fx the rust on the doors, and two-tone like a eurosport how neat It would be with the green!

Overclocked
11-16-2013, 01:14 AM
Sounds like a great project, I'd love to see some pictures as well. Alero's usually have what type of V6? The 3.8?

Considering how rare pea green is, it could look very cool to keep it that color. A "so lame, it's cool" kind of thing, IMO.

Duke George V
11-16-2013, 01:23 AM
Aleros use the same engine as the Grand Am, which is the 3400. I will advise against the 4T45, and instead advocate the 4T65. Much more plentiful, rebuild kits are cheap, and it will bolt to the cradle with a minimum of modification, if any.

beretta2800
11-16-2013, 01:31 AM
Here are some pictures, I would keep the color just for the sake of time, but It has some primered panels because of a light deer hit... so I kinda needs to be painted anyway.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0429.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0429.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0430.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0430.jpg.html)

I wish I had the gauge cluster instead of the idiot lights.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0431.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0431.jpg.html)


http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0441.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0441.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0446.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0446.jpg.html)

turbokinetic
11-16-2013, 02:21 AM
Sounds like a great project! I will be interested to see your build with the 3500 / 4T45 trans! I'm into the 'crazy builds' but usually keep with the older engines and transmissions.

Anyway very happy you've joined the forum! Please post some picts of Ginger!

Sincerely,
David

beretta2800
11-16-2013, 12:18 PM
Turbokinetic, I have read a few of your builds and am very impressed with what you have done! I might need some help later on with this one since I know a tune may be in order once I get closer to the finish.

beretta2800
11-16-2013, 02:26 PM
@Thesam1984 I have considered keeping the green, but the hood and nose are already primer black from a deer incident with the PO. I have been thinking two tone, just not Eurosport style, below the door guards. we will see.

@Duke I had toyed with the idea of the 4t60e but figured that in the maxx it uses a 4t45e and achieved the target MPG I wanted. Another side note is that I can just drop in the motor, trans and PCM from the Alero and drive. Not the case with the 4t60e. After reading your comments I did look up possible gear ratios for the 4t60e's and found that it is possible to build a 2.55:1 final drive in one, it that could be an option since I am looking at mileage improvements.

@Turbokinetic thanks for the interest! I'll try to keep this updated.

turbokinetic
11-21-2013, 01:23 AM
......
@Turbokinetic thanks for the interest! I'll try to keep this updated.....

.....I have read a few of your builds and am very impressed with what you have done! I might need some help later on with this one since I know a tune may be in order once I get closer to the finish.

Thank you! I would be happy to help. If you go with the newer engine, it may be outside of my area of experience, because I've not dealt with OBDII tuning. The older ECM's tune in real-time with emulation interface. The OBDII is a little more tricky because you have to stop and upload tunes each time you make a change.

Keep us updated. That wagon will look great with a new coat of paint on it. :)

Sincerely,
David

thesam1984
11-21-2013, 04:39 AM
I gotcha... your celebrity is great looking very clean... I have been experimenting with those rustoleum paint jobs on my old cars with decent results... I know how you feel, mine has a blue front clip right now from a deer shaped like an idiot in a pickup.

beretta2800
11-22-2013, 05:56 PM
Since Duke said something about the 4t60e I am reconsidering my plan. One of the Guys I work with suggested the L67 or L36 since the Buicks and Pontiacs will get 32mpg on the highway... just not sure about it. My car is lighter than any of those other cars and hopefully will have a better CD number, the VR had .38CD I think... I am going to do a full belly pan too, so should be better. What mileage are people getting with their a-bodies?

thesam1984
11-24-2013, 05:56 AM
Since Duke said something about the 4t60e I am reconsidering my plan. One of the Guys I work with suggested the L67 or L36 since the Buicks and Pontiacs will get 32mpg on the highway... just not sure about it. My car is lighter than any of those other cars and hopefully will have a better CD number, the VR had .38CD I think... I am going to do a full belly pan too, so should be better. What mileage are people getting with their a-bodies?

I have a 3.3 3-speed... I got 20mpg yesterday racing to work and letting the car idle for about a half hour... (this was milage in the last 100 miles.) With no muffler im losing some too. I get average 23- 25 usually. But I didnt buy mine for mileage.. I got it for torque and stupid reliability and the knowledge I can beat on her if I need to

turbokinetic
11-24-2013, 10:44 PM
Since Duke said something about the 4t60e I am reconsidering my plan. One of the Guys I work with suggested the L67 or L36 since the Buicks and Pontiacs will get 32mpg on the highway...

The L67 is a serious piece of machinery. You will not be disappointed with the power or efficiency of this engine. Highly recommended.


just not sure about it. My car is lighter than any of those other cars and hopefully will have a better CD number, the VR had .38CD I think... I am going to do a full belly pan too, so should be better. What mileage are people getting with their a-bodies?

I'm getting 30 with my 88 Ciera XC. It is a 4-door car with the XC ground effects, 3-speed auto and a 2.8 engine which has been turbocharged. That is freeway milage with A/C on. Before the turbo, without A/C and at only 60 MPH I got 35 MPG on a road trip.

My 84 Century Olympia has 3.8 engine. It has been extensively modified was not built with any concern for fuel milage. It gets about 15 around town and high 20's on the highway. Its also has about 450 crank HP and 3.29 gears.

I have an 86 Buick GS, which feels like it has an incredibly low CD. It will cruise at "off idle" at 80 on the freeway with hardly any wind noise. The GS has a ground effects and spoiler package which seems really effective. I drove it home from Maryland. It has a 3.8 engine, and 4-speed transmission. The car is beautiful to look at but mechanically it's in bad shape. In spite of the problems, it still managed 30 MPG on the trip home from MD, and I was not going slow....

Sincerely,
David

beretta2800
11-25-2013, 03:22 AM
The L67 is a serious piece of machinery. You will not be disappointed with the power or efficiency of this engine. Highly recommended.



I'm getting 30 with my 88 Ciera XC. It is a 4-door car with the XC ground effects, 3-speed auto and a 2.8 engine which has been turbocharged. That is freeway milage with A/C on. Before the turbo, without A/C and at only 60 MPH I got 35 MPG on a road trip.

My 84 Century Olympia has 3.8 engine. It has been extensively modified was not built with any concern for fuel milage. It gets about 15 around town and high 20's on the highway. Its also has about 450 crank HP and 3.29 gears.

I have an 86 Buick GS, which feels like it has an incredibly low CD. It will cruise at "off idle" at 80 on the freeway with hardly any wind noise. The GS has a ground effects and spoiler package which seems really effective. I drove it home from Maryland. It has a 3.8 engine, and 4-speed transmission. The car is beautiful to look at but mechanically it's in bad shape. In spite of the problems, it still managed 30 MPG on the trip home from MD, and I was not going slow....

Sincerely,
David

This is what I was thinking, even though the 3800 is bigger than my 2.8, the torque is right where it should be and the amount is what matters (probably similar to your turbo 2.8). My parents have owned a 1993 Pontiac Trans Sport since 1996 and I went on a trip with my father to a woodworking trade show in Ohio several years ago. We took out all of the seats and put in some of his equipment (probably around 150-200lbs worth) and took off. It was all highway and we averaged a little over 30MPG in a van! I looked it up the other day, those vans have a CD of .30!
That memory is what is tugging me in the direction of the 3800 with the 4l65e, That Van is still being driven EVERY DAY after 200,000mi of around town driving. Those engines are incredible. That and I just rebuilt a 4L65e at work that had a broken apply pin anchor on the forward band, It was so easy to rebuild...

I am leaning towards a L36 since I don't really need the extra 40 Horses of the L67... but, the torque is what keeps me thinking about it. A 2009 Pontiac GP GT with the series III 3800SC just came in the shop on friday, I'll check the average mileage on it in the morning.

turbokinetic
11-25-2013, 01:49 PM
Hmmm. How the hell do you break the forward band anchor pin? The owner will have some explaining to do! :) That sounds like operator error to me! I've done loud, smoky, raucous, Big Daddy Don Garlitz style bunouts with my car and never broken that part....

As for the L36 versus L67 - think about it this way. The swap is exactly the same in every way, taking exactly the same time and cost to make it happen. So you will be getting basically a "free" 40 HP upgrade if you go with L67.

Sincerely,
David

jeffp
11-25-2013, 03:06 PM
could the l67 swap be done in a 95 century? I need to swap out trans and have considered up grading to 3.8 and trans. thanks

beretta2800
11-25-2013, 07:12 PM
Hmmm. How the hell do you break the forward band anchor pin? The owner will have some explaining to do! :) That sounds like operator error to me! I've done loud, smoky, raucous, Big Daddy Don Garlitz style bunouts with my car and never broken that part....

As for the L36 versus L67 - think about it this way. The swap is exactly the same in every way, taking exactly the same time and cost to make it happen. So you will be getting basically a "free" 40 HP upgrade if you go with L67.

Sincerely,
David

That's a good point, David. My only concern is that using the supercharger will be less beneficial than using a turbo or NA because of the added load (since my goal is good milage), I guess I could swap out the upper intake and injectors on the L67 for a L36 at the yard and give it some light boost. Say, 10psi, that way I am using the heat and pressure in the exhaust to make the engine breathe more efficiently and making more power.

It wasn't the pin in the transmission case, but it is the anchor on the band it self, that broke.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0459.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0459.jpg.html)

turbokinetic
11-25-2013, 08:48 PM
That's a good point, David. My only concern is that using the supercharger will be less beneficial than using a turbo or NA because of the added load (since my goal is good milage), I guess I could swap out the upper intake and injectors on the L67 for a L36 at the yard and give it some light boost. Say, 10psi, that way I am using the heat and pressure in the exhaust to make the engine breathe more efficiently and making more power.

It wasn't the pin in the transmission case, but it is the anchor on the band it self, that broke.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0459.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0459.jpg.html)

It's hard to tell from that angle, but it looks like there could be some fatigue fracture marks on the band. Probably a manufacturing defect that took a while to show up.

One good thing about the L67 supercharger system is that it has a bypass valve and only loads the blower when you call for it, based on throttle position. In other words, the blower isn't pulling vacuum against the throttle plate all the time.

Putting a turbo on the L67 in place of the blower will bring mad horsepower. One of our members (skalor) has done this and he has (likely) the world's most powerful A-body.

beretta2800
11-26-2013, 06:40 PM
I keep fighting myself on this subject of engines... I would LOVE power, but since this is going to be the family car, I feel like efficiency is the goal. A 3800 L67 against a 4t65e would be sweet... and light years ahead of the 2.8mpfi but the biggest concern is MPG. I'm planning on using the 16147609 trans controller so I can enable lockup of the tcc earlier than most cars and have it delay tcc disable when I want to give it a little gas, at least that is my hope.

David, I saw in another post of yours that you have some files about tuning these TCMs, what do you have?

The other issue is tuning the 3800 ECM, I know of the code 59, but I don't need all the features it has and I need one it lacks- Sequential FI. What would my best choice be for a 3800 ECM that has provisions for boost and that can be tuned with OBD1 software?

turbokinetic
11-26-2013, 07:05 PM
I keep fighting myself on this subject of engines... I would LOVE power, but since this is going to be the family car, I feel like efficiency is the goal. A 3800 L67 against a 4t65e would be sweet... and light years ahead of the 2.8mpfi but the biggest concern is MPG. I'm planning on using the 16147609 trans controller so I can enable lockup of the tcc earlier than most cars and have it delay tcc disable when I want to give it a little gas, at least that is my hope.

David, I saw in another post of yours that you have some files about tuning these TCMs, what do you have?

The other issue is tuning the 3800 ECM, I know of the code 59, but I don't need all the features it has and I need one it lacks- Sequential FI. What would my best choice be for a 3800 ECM that has provisions for boost and that can be tuned with OBD1 software?

Yes I have all the files for tuning the 'diesel 4L80E controller' for a 4T65E. You are welcome to my base tune that I'm using in my 3.8 turbo engine's trans. It will lock the TCC in 2, 3, or 4th gears depending on the throttle. I have a Precision of New Hampton 3-disc torque converter clutch in my car, so it will lock at full power. You'll need to adjust this because it will tear up a stock converter clutch and contaminate the trans with shavings. Don't ask me how I know this.... ;)

They sold a 1995 supercharged 3800 with a chip-tuned ECM. It had a 4T60E transmission. It had vacuum modulated line pressure, but electronic shift timing. This ECM can not control the 65E trans because of no output for the force motor pressure control.

However it is SFI, MAF, and calibrated for boost, with a boost control output for the solenoid. That would be my first choice for engine ECM in your position.

E-mail me about the tuning files for the trans ECU. I have base diesel truck BIN, 4T65E BIN, and a definition file, wiring diagrams etc.

beretta2800
11-27-2013, 09:12 PM
[QUOTE=They sold a 1995 supercharged 3800 with a chip-tuned ECM. It had a 4T60E transmission. It had vacuum modulated line pressure, but electronic shift timing. This ECM can not control the 65E trans because of no output for the force motor pressure control.

However it is SFI, MAF, and calibrated for boost, with a boost control output for the solenoid. That would be my first choice for engine ECM in your position.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like it could be in a Riviera, SSEI, or Park Ave. Do you know if there is a definition file for that PCM?

I ordered my brand-spanking new 16147609 Trans controller through my dealership, I had to order it from Louisiana, but it was worth it for 70% below cost! Including shipping it cost me $51.04. just have to wait a few days =)

turbokinetic
11-27-2013, 09:39 PM
That's a great deal! I think I paid about $100 for a reman '609. It has never given a minute's trouble.

Check your e-mail re: the tuning definition on the 94-95 L67. It has same ECM and definition as the n/a L27 3800. You'll have to find and read a L67 chip for a starting BIN file, I didn't have that piece of the puzzle.

beretta2800
12-04-2013, 05:12 PM
I got the files, I have been trying to get another laptop going to use solely for tuning, burning chips and running an ostrich. Turns out that running tunercat in WINE in linux doesn't work so swell... no matter how I do it, the installation in wine changes the definition file's creation date. Looks like I'll have to go with an XP setup fewer headaches I guess.

I'm anxiously waiting for my '609 to come so I can start playing! Can the '609 be accessed through serial data on a tech1 from the ALDL if it gets spliced in line? I'm assuming you would just have to build the vehicle as the 91-93 k truck with a diesel right?

I have located an engine for the build and would like some opinions. I can get a 150k L36 3800 for core price ($100) and have to have the crank reground with .010" over bearings (spun bearings) and re-seal, pulled out in the shop without getting nasty-wet and cold here in NY, or buy the same engine from the yard for $150 plus weight price and still have to tear it down anyway.

white89euro
12-04-2013, 10:53 PM
You have a coveted FERN GREEN Celebrity Wagon there. Those are incredibly hard to find. Do not change the color. You'll cut the resale value in half!

George

turbokinetic
12-05-2013, 02:18 AM
I got the files, I have been trying to get another laptop going to use solely for tuning, burning chips and running an ostrich. Turns out that running tunercat in WINE in linux doesn't work so swell... no matter how I do it, the installation in wine changes the definition file's creation date. Looks like I'll have to go with an XP setup fewer headaches I guess.

Yeah. I'm very confident the realtime hardware intensive stuff will not work on a Windows emulator program. It needs to be a bone-stock bog-standard Windows XP install. These things can be sensative as hell because the timing of the bytes sent between the computer and the ECM is very critical. Any extra layers of emulation or 'nested' drivers will throw it off.

I have a laptop that's just for tuning, and it showed its ass this week! Another forum member drove down to visit and we wanted to enable Hiway Mode and do some light tuning of his car. Well, that Ole Reliable tuning laptop started giving the SVCHOST.EXE 100% CPU usage issue, locking up, and it ended up taking a while to find the solution and get it sorted. Computers! Can't live with 'em but can't live without 'em either.



I'm anxiously waiting for my '609 to come so I can start playing! Can the '609 be accessed through serial data on a tech1 from the ALDL if it gets spliced in line? I'm assuming you would just have to build the vehicle as the 91-93 k truck with a diesel right?


Yes that should give you the correct ALDL definition. I spliced in a second ALDL for the trans controller, and use EASE diagnostics to read the trans ECU. Exactly as you said, set it up for 93 K withh diesel and 4 speed auto.



I have located an engine for the build and would like some opinions. I can get a 150k L36 3800 for core price ($100) and have to have the crank reground with .010" over bearings (spun bearings) and re-seal, pulled out in the shop without getting nasty-wet and cold here in NY, or buy the same engine from the yard for $150 plus weight price and still have to tear it down anyway.

Go with the one you have in shop! You know it was running and has a known issue - but it's not been sittin out in the weather or have other hidden defects. Crank kit is not that expensive anyway.


You have a coveted FERN GREEN Celebrity Wagon there. Those are incredibly hard to find. Do not change the color. You'll cut the resale value in half!

George

Yeah, it's about as rare as my Fern Green Diesel Century Coupe with digital dash! :)

beretta2800
12-05-2013, 12:44 PM
You have a coveted FERN GREEN Celebrity Wagon there. Those are incredibly hard to find. Do not change the color. You'll cut the resale value in half!

George

Resale value of a 1987 Celebrity wagon to the general public is nil... It's sad to say, but that doesn't matter since I am going to make good use of the car for my family for many years to come, hopefully!

beretta2800
12-05-2013, 12:45 PM
Is there anyone who has an Ostrich For sale? I don't need the 2.0 version, just something that works and that no one has any use for, I'll post in the wanted section too.

beretta2800
12-05-2013, 02:18 PM
Just to alleviate the concerns about the color; It's going to remain the same basic fern green color, just a more modern variation. It's called "steel green metallic" but in the GM parts catalog it's called 'evolution blue metallic" I have to figure out this discrepancy... I had been working on an Equinox that was this color and I liked it, it's darker and is a base/clear system. should be pretty nice and my wife likes it too! http://gmauthority.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/2013-chevrolet-equinox-colors/2013-chevy-equinox-steel-green-metallic.pngI checked with the body shop at my dealer and they verified the color based on the code: WA 718S it's the color I wanted, just two names for the same color.

turbokinetic
12-05-2013, 02:25 PM
That color will look nice on the wagon. And yeah, the base/clear always look really nice.

beretta2800
12-10-2013, 07:24 PM
Ok, So I got the '609, It has the 28 pin Prom socket with male terminals, so I need the G5 adapter from Moates. I'm just for testing right now, so I would like to know if the pins are in the correct positions, just that they need to be spaced wider to match the SST chips.
I have thought of just making my own header adapter (using some left over parts from my megasquirt) and saving $30 plus shipping.

Oh, and I got the paint today, going to make a sample chip tonight for posting on here.

turbokinetic
12-11-2013, 12:40 AM
Ok, So I got the '609, It has the 28 pin Prom socket with male terminals, so I need the G5 adapter from Moates. I'm just for testing right now, so I would like to know if the pins are in the correct positions, just that they need to be spaced wider to match the SST chips.
I have thought of just making my own header adapter (using some left over parts from my megasquirt) and saving $30 plus shipping.

Oh, and I got the paint today, going to make a sample chip tonight for posting on here.

Yes the pins are in the correct positions. I made an adapter from radio shack IC sockets for my first tests and it worked fine.

http://68.209.87.173/84_Century/Transmission_4T65EHD/ECU_open.jpg

beretta2800
12-13-2013, 05:40 PM
Haha, I was thinking of using that exact board! As much as I appreciate all that Craig Moates has done for tuning our vehicles easily, I can't justify $30 plus shipping for something I can easily make in half an hour. One thing I was thinking about is the two timer for the ECM and TCM... and there goes justification right out the window. Lol.

beretta2800
12-13-2013, 07:14 PM
Oh wait, DIY to the rescue! http://60degreev6.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-46689.html Make sure you read the whole thread. Looks like I can have two modes for next to no cost. If I connect the ground switch to both ECM and TCM I can have a tune for economy and have a performance tune as well!

turbokinetic
12-14-2013, 02:43 AM
That's cool to see how Robert made the DIY bin-switcher setup. Pretty good stuff there. Just be careful that the external lead to the MEMCAL does not allow unfiltered static and noise to get into the ECM's processor board!

beretta2800
12-15-2013, 06:17 PM
I considered that, EMI I'm assuming you mean, and I was thinking of using shielded wire like some CAT5, that way I can use one bundle to accomplish the same goal at both the TCM and ECM. Or I can make a twisted pair of wires with one wire grounded at both ends.

turbokinetic
12-15-2013, 06:58 PM
I considered that, EMI I'm assuming you mean, and I was thinking of using shielded wire like some CAT5, that way I can use one bundle to accomplish the same goal at both the TCM and ECM. Or I can make a twisted pair of wires with one wire grounded at both ends.

That would work, just be careful because whatever sheilding you use needs to be grounded at one end only. I have had to locate and repair this mistake before, on offshore installations. If there is a "ground loop" it will induce interference on the signal lines.

beretta2800
12-20-2013, 03:04 AM
I'll post pictures soon of my progress, I started tearing the car apart, I have the whole front end disassembled and am just about ready to pull the engine and transmission; I should be done with that this weekend along with pulling out the interior and removing suspension components.

I was able to effectively combine a BIN switcher into my 28 pin EPROM adapter for the TCM, I would like to use one of the unused pins on the TCM connector for the new circuit to ground. David, can I start the shielding outside the TCM or should I start within?

turbokinetic
12-20-2013, 09:27 AM
Can't wait to see pictures!

I would shield the cables from within the shielded aluminum ECM housing, to provide maximum resistance to interference.

beretta2800
12-20-2013, 02:14 PM
I was going to take some pictures with my Cell phone, but in lower light that thing is worthless. It's something to do with a tiny, 8MP sensor I guess, lol. :thumbsdown: Time to get out the SLR.

I'll get the shield installed inside the tcm too then, thanks David.

Does anyone have any experience with POR-15 and Eastwood's Rust Encapsulator? I want to do this right, and it seems like this may be the best route to take on the rust already present, plus if I coat the inside of the panels and rockers there would be less chance of rust forming or continuing since the metal will be sealed on the inside with a good coating and the out side with nice paint.

Speaking of paint, Napa screwed up my color and made some sort of blue concoction, I took it back and they said they couldn't fix it, so they mixed up a new batch in their premium brand and won't charge me for their mistake (rightfully so!).

I read somewhere on this board that you can use a engine cradle/subframe off of a W-body car in place of the steel one... does this mean I can use the aluminum subframe from an Impala along with the control arms and spindles? Maybe this isn't true information? I'm hoping its true, I wouldn't have to play around with mounts, the engine and trans would bolt right in. =)

beretta2800
01-06-2014, 07:51 PM
Napa finally made good on the paint; I am glad that debacle is over!
Now on to more pressing matters...

I read some reviews and the consensus is that Eastwood's Rust Encapsulator is the better option. Both work very well, but Eastwood's is not as susceptible to UV issues and requires less surface prep. It's also less expensive. I'll be using some Naval jelly (phosphoric acid) to stop the rust, then use the rust encapsulator and top it off with sealer primer, base and clear. I shouldn't have any rust issues for some time. =)

I was able to gut the interior of the car and found minor corrosion to the floor boards, also some panels have previously been coated with a corrosion protection , but that was 27 years ago, more than likely. I'll have to re-coat some panels and hopefully cover the inside of the rockers too.

Does anyone have a source for the rocker molding trim clips? They break instantly when compressed. Every single one of mine is gone.

Anyway, here is a pictorial look at my progress so far:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0497.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0497.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0498.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0498.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0478.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0478.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0501.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0501.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0500.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0500.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0495.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0495.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0510.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0510.jpg.html)

beretta2800
01-17-2014, 09:02 PM
I have acquired a 1999 Bonneville with the series II 3800 and a 4t65E (2.86 final drive ratio) for a donor car. It's too bad, I've always liked the Bonnevilles of that era, but she's a rot out special... 119,000mi... but for $350 I couldn't go wrong. I can even get $200 back when I scrap the shell! I'll probably re-seal the engine (if it's leaking) and replace the bearings just to be sure I don't run into problems; I'll be tearing the tranny down just to ease my mind too, I'll probably replace piston seals and servo seals if all the friction plates and bands look good.

Now I have everything but the 16183247 PCM and u-van front brakes; I even have all the wiring harness I could ever want!

I am considering replacing the front struts from a U-van too. They are different part numbers than A-bodies for Monroe"s, the KYB's are the same number same for U,A and X cars I think. I need the additional spring force to support the Mighty 3800!

turbokinetic
01-18-2014, 12:50 PM
I have acquired a 1999 Bonneville with the series II 3800 and a 4t65E (2.86 final drive ratio) for a donor car. It's too bad, I've always liked the Bonnevilles of that era, but she's a rot out special... 119,000mi... but for $350 I couldn't go wrong. I can even get $200 back when I scrap the shell! I'll probably re-seal the engine (if it's leaking) and replace the bearings just to be sure I don't run into problems; I'll be tearing the tranny down just to ease my mind too, I'll probably replace piston seals and servo seals if all the friction plates and bands look good.

Now I have everything but the 16183247 PCM and u-van front brakes; I even have all the wiring harness I could ever want!

I am considering replacing the front struts from a U-van too. They are different part numbers than A-bodies for Monroe"s, the KYB's are the same number same for U,A and X cars I think. I need the additional spring force to support the Mighty 3800!

Sounds like you have a good plan going on there!

beretta2800
01-19-2014, 01:10 AM
Sounds like you have a good plan going on there!

Thanks, David!

I didn't get the Bonneville today like I had hoped. Snowy weather, a 2wd pickup and a car dolly w/o brakes loaded with a 3400lb car make for a bad recipe. :eek3: The plan is to get the thing tomorrow since there is less chance of snow.

Body work has commenced; I have the engine bay just about ready to prime, just have to finish up the rust encapsulator. Once it is primed I'll be doing a coat of Rustoleum black then a coat of Rustoleum white. Black so I know I have the primer covered and White since it will aid in identifying fluid leaks; not everything will look like brown goop.
The under body will have the same treatment followed by undercoating. The front and rear suspension will get primed and painted too after knocking the rust off.

Then I move on to actually painting the base coat.

beretta2800
01-20-2014, 01:53 PM
Here she is, the 1999 Bonneville donor!

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0521.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0521.jpg.html)

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/scberetta3800/IMG_0525.jpg (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/scberetta3800/media/IMG_0525.jpg.html)

Under the hood is a little crusty, but that won't be a huge issue.

thesam1984
01-20-2014, 05:45 PM
I wonder if you could modify that Bonneville's strut brace to fit your car? Seems worthwhile to try with all the power your putting in there... and my motor I put in our new beetle looked like that as well. He's running as sweetly as ever now, its all whats on the inside anyway that counts...

What are you doing with the rest of the Bonnville?

Papadopoulos
01-20-2014, 06:51 PM
What a great project! The donor engine may look dirty but as long as it runs sweet, all will be great.

beretta2800
01-21-2014, 02:27 AM
What a great project! The donor engine may look dirty but as long as it runs sweet, all will be great.

Thank you very much, I hope she runs good.


What are you doing with the rest of the Bonneville?

I am going to sell off parts, salvage what I want to use and scrap the rest. Do you have any need of parts? Shoot me an PM if you are interested in parts from the Bonnie or original driveline, wheels and tires from Ginger, I was thinking the same thing about that strut brace; it made a night and day difference on my Beretta, so why not!

thesam1984
01-21-2014, 01:51 PM
No actually I was just curious as I used to have a 93 Bonneville and my best friend growing up had that identical one with the supercharged motor, and it flew!

Ray_McAvoy
01-21-2014, 04:12 PM
I wonder if you could modify that Bonneville's strut brace to fit your car?


I was thinking the same thing about that strut brace; it made a night and day difference on my Beretta, so why not!

Those C & H body strut braces are fairly easy to adapt to our A-body cars. Here's one I modified to fit my '88 ... just cut the end pieces and welded on some home-made plates that fit the strut towers ... no change to the center bar.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w131/ray_mcavoy/88CutlassCiera/StrutTowerBrace.jpg (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/ray_mcavoy/media/88CutlassCiera/StrutTowerBrace.jpg.html)

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w131/ray_mcavoy/88CutlassCiera/Engine.jpg (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/ray_mcavoy/media/88CutlassCiera/Engine.jpg.html)


hope she runs good.

Looking good so far! I think you'll be more than happy with the performance of the 3800 in your car :) I recently did a similar swap (put a '95 L27 3800 into Mom's '94 Cutlass Cruiser wagon) ... it made a world of difference over the old 3100.

If you haven't seen it already, the thread on that engine swap is here: http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?5402-94-3100-to-95-3800-engine-swap-wiring-questions

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w131/ray_mcavoy/94CutlassCruiser/3800Finished_1.jpg (http://s175.photobucket.com/user/ray_mcavoy/media/94CutlassCruiser/3800Finished_1.jpg.html)

I saved the strut brace from the LeSabre that donated that engine ... it'll be going in the wagon but I just haven't had time to modify that one yet.

beretta2800
01-25-2014, 06:22 PM
Cool, thanks for the info!

great install of the 3800 BTW, looks like a factory install!

beretta2800
01-26-2014, 02:28 AM
I went to the yard today, I looked and looked and finally found my 16183247 ECM. It was in the only 1995 in the whole yard, pulled it out of a 1995 supercharged Riviera. I was hoping to find another 94-95 88, 98, Bonneville, LeSabre, or Park Ave to pull the NA tuned EPROM out of... No luck, though I did find a drool worthy, mostly rust free, W41 Quad4 H.O. powered 1992 Grand am GT with a 5 speed... It'll soon be donating it's shift cables to my Beretta... I wish I could have picked up the car before it went to the yard.

Anyway, there were only two dustbuster vans that were sitting in the mud, neither were 3800s; I figured getting the brake parts could wait till I go to a less local yard where everything is on stands and I know there were some with 3800s too.

I hopefully will get the engine compartment primed/painted on Ginger and get the drivetrain yanked from Bonnie this coming week.

beretta2800
05-14-2014, 02:18 PM
Sorry that there have been no post recently! I am still working on the car, engine and trans are mounted, drive shafts had to be hybridized, I'm working on a rear brake disc brake swap bracket for Alero/Grand Am components which I hope to be able to provide to anyone interested on here. I am in the process of painting right now and hope to complete the bodywork in the next week or two. After that it's reassembly! I'll have pics up soon!

Papadopoulos
05-14-2014, 05:18 PM
Awesome! I'd love to see the final result.

beretta2800
02-04-2016, 03:45 PM
Hey Guys, Sorry for dropping off the radar for so long, I had to move the car from where I was working on it to my house in a canvas single car garage... it's less than ideal to say the least. Work is progressing regardless, Paint was completed shortly after my last post on here. I'll post a current pic on here soon. Things had to change because my cavalier I had been driving was on it's last leg at 300,000 miles. I ended up buying a 1987 Pontiac Bonneville with a burnt trans, swapped in a 4t65-e from a 2005 impala and stole my trans controller from Ginger. Ginger was put on the back burner it's sad to say.
It's slow going on the reassembly... I'm not working over concrete so getting under the car would be sketchy. It's protected from the elements and I have plywood under it to attempt to protect from the rust.
I'm trying to mod my instrument cluster indoors to keep warm this winter. I want to do the speedo re-calibration that david did, re-purpose the idiot light coolant warning and oil pressure light for a back-up camera, install actual gauges and change the shifter positions to include PND321. I'm wiring in an overhead DVD player and just for the added 1980's flair a coaxial connection and power source for a Nintendo NES in the back. :thumbsup:
I'll be posting pics soon!