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View Full Version : 440-t4 to 4t60-E ??



CuttyC 3.3
06-02-2009, 04:22 AM
I had question for some of you TECH guys.. My 91' olds ciera just hit 120k and is still runnin real strong as it was owned by a little old lady most of its life.. My question is the car has the 3.3 and i believe the 440-t4 tranny, and i was wondering that if i wanted to swap to a 4t60-e would it be possible and would there be any advantage or disadvantage to this ?? From what im learning is that the 4t60-e is a little more rugged and has better shift points ... and also hav i seen there is a 4t65,, is this even better or ??? its hard trying to dig thru old posts , so if anyone has any input its greatly appreciated .. x)

Prospeeder
06-02-2009, 10:25 PM
naw the E version is not any stronger. But it is completley computer controlled so you need the whole wiring harness and ECU/TCU

turbokinetic
06-03-2009, 02:00 AM
X2 what Prospeeder said!

The 4T60E is no stronger, just simpler and easier to adjust because the ECM controlls the shifting speeds. It works with a regular P4 ECM using 2 extra unused outputs to control the shifts. You would need different wiring and chip of course.

The 4T65E is a whole 'nother story. Properly built it will hold 800 HP (so I have been told). It takes a more advanced PCM (as Prospeeder said) capable of controlling transmission charge pressure as well as shift points.

I have replaced my 440T4 with a 4T65EHD to hold the power of my turbo 3.8, and did a write-up on it. See this thread. (http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1589) I didn't use a PCM. Instead I left my original engine ECM in place controlling the engine, and used a stand-alone transmission ECU that just does the 4T65EHD transmission. This was a fairly involved swap requiring modded CV shafts, driveplate, brackets, custom ECU programming and harness fabrication.

A 440T4 can be built up to hold 300 HP. Did it on my 86 T-Type. The weak points are the charge pressure rise in the factory calibrations; the TCC apply pressure, and the 4th clutch. If you address those things, a 440T4 can hold up really well.

Have you done any tranny work before?
David

CuttyC 3.3
06-03-2009, 06:32 PM
But it does bolt onto the block yes ?? and a stand alone ecu/tcu for the tranny will work?? it doesnt have to be hooked up to the engine at all ? that sounds like the way to go honestly, that way u can change one up if u wanted without having to mess with the other ecu .. i figured the cv shafts wuld have to be modded, and brackets and such, And no, i am not a qualified tranny tech,,i can do some stuff but i have most work done by my good mechanic friend{ who bracket races his 7sec turbo 69camaro } but i like to learn as much as i can about the technology :)

turbokinetic
06-04-2009, 02:21 AM
But it does bolt onto the block yes ?? and a stand alone ecu/tcu for the tranny will work?? it doesnt have to be hooked up to the engine at all ? that sounds like the way to go honestly, that way u can change one up if u wanted without having to mess with the other ecu .. i figured the cv shafts wuld have to be modded, and brackets and such, And no, i am not a qualified tranny tech,,i can do some stuff but i have most work done by my good mechanic friend{ who bracket races his 7sec turbo 69camaro } but i like to learn as much as i can about the technology :)

Yes - the pre - 2000 4T65E tranny is a direct bolt-in swap to the engine bellhoising and the car's powertrain mounts. The braket between the side of the block and the tranny tailhousing had to be modified, as did the CV shafts and the cooler lines.

This tranny (like all used in the A cars) has a Chevy Metric bellhousing (I think that is the right word) and will bolt to any of the engines used in these cars.

The 2000 and newer transmissions have a different mount bolt pattern on the rear of the case where the powertrain mount closest to the steering column mounts. An adapter can be made but that is one more step to the conversion.

As for the transmission ECU; the one I chose was originally used in a Chevy diesel pickup with no engine electronics. All of the sensors are internal to the transmission, except the engine speed input and the throttle position signal. The engine speed input can be obtained from the ignition system, and the throttle position input was tied into the engine's existing TPS sensor. Other than those 2 things, it is compeltey independent.

That trans swap thread has all the details to do the swap, including the "recipe" for the CV shafts, and the wiring schematic that I made for this setup.

It is sure nice to be able to connect the notebook computer and adjust the transmission shift points without any hassle of opening the tans case and messing with the valve body!

David

turbokinetic
06-04-2009, 02:33 AM
I've had one funny incident with a "Self proclaimed car genius." He was so sure there was no way for this trans to work without an OBDII PCM that he accused me of having "hidden toggle switches" I was flipping to shift it manually. I had to take him for a ride (both hands on the wheel and no toggle switch flipping) then show him the ECU and wiring. Moron!!!!

CuttyC 3.3
06-04-2009, 03:46 AM
Awesome, thanx alot man for your help. Answered my question and definitely
persuaded me to do what u have done ..

I think once this tranny starts to go i will take the 3.3 out and save/sell it and try to find a nice 3.8 series II or LG3 and the 4t65e to go with it! Ive been looking on different sourses often so i know what im lookin at pricewise< Thanx to you guys i know what im lookin at TECH-wise so i appreciate it ..

This baby does pretty good and still has alot of life left in her,,, i just like to plan things out ahead of time... And its awesome to hav ppl who really know their sh*1 here, this is one of the top places to come to for info on these cars- especially with stuff that isnt exactly " factory " --- TURBO!! =D

thx again ,,
nick

Urban_S
07-01-2009, 02:40 AM
I so i am just trying to make sure I understand this right. I have a car with a blown 440-t4 in it and I have a 4t60-e(and a smashed 97 parts car. What would it take to to put the 4t60e in the car with the 440-t4?

turbokinetic
07-01-2009, 07:13 PM
I so i am just trying to make sure I understand this right. I have a car with a blown 440-t4 in it and I have a 4t60-e(and a smashed 97 parts car. What would it take to to put the 4t60e in the car with the 440-t4?

ECM (or PCM) and harnesses from a car with same engine as yours, that had a factory-installed 4T60E transmission, would be the easiest way to make it work.

Check your PM!

David

CuttyC 3.3
10-10-2009, 05:34 PM
So , i had a couple more questions for you tech masters here,, just wonderin if u culd help me ??

From the research ive been doing lately, ive decited on the 4t65e HD tranny when i do my swap. My question is, since the GTP's that these things usually come out of have options like traction control and all that stuff, how do you go about setting that up properly.. Am i going to have to make a place for the selector switch, or can you program it right off of a laptop ??

Also , are things like my cruise control going to be effected by the swap??
I am just curious since my cutlass' setup is different than pontiacs. \

thx :rock:

Prospeeder
10-10-2009, 07:56 PM
you would somehow have the swap ABS style hub assemblys with the intigrated speed sensors

Zaloryan
02-03-2010, 04:18 AM
So , i had a couple more questions for you tech masters here,, just wonderin if u culd help me ??

From the research ive been doing lately, ive decited on the 4t65e HD tranny when i do my swap. My question is, since the GTP's that these things usually come out of have options like traction control and all that stuff, how do you go about setting that up properly.. Am i going to have to make a place for the selector switch, or can you program it right off of a laptop ??

Also , are things like my cruise control going to be effected by the swap??
I am just curious since my cutlass' setup is different than pontiacs. \

thx :rock:

I think you could reprogram the computer for the transmission so that the traction control can be programmed out.