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Tonglebeak
07-01-2009, 08:19 PM
It seems the NOx portion of the emissions test is being axed at the end of August. I had emissions done today (after requesting an extension for a bad e-brake). The HC and CO passed with flying colors, but NOx barely failed (my EGR valve is disabled due to stalling issues it was causing). The guy told me to just bring the car back after August and it'll pass since they will no longer test NOx.

I wasn't sure why, so after doing some research, it appears that E85/ethanol is actually increasing NOx emissions (not that I'm using it, but I'm just trying to find out why such an "ozone-depleting emission" will no longer be tested). That's the only reason I can think of...if anyone else may no why that is, I'm all ears, but either way it's good news that us Marylanders dont' have to worry about having an EGR valve anymore :)

86euro
07-01-2009, 11:28 PM
I don't need to worry about ANY emissions or ANY safety equipment:D

Tonglebeak
07-02-2009, 12:23 AM
Same if I had got a historic registration, but there's restrictions on driving then...

a1veedubber
07-02-2009, 01:39 AM
Yes, but you have to deal with living in Maryland!!!! :D



Oh, and this for us Iowa boys too---------->
I don't need to worry about ANY emissions or ANY safety equipment:D

Zaloryan
07-02-2009, 04:32 AM
Arkansas = No emission testing

I fuel up at 100% gasoline stations whenever possible. I lack a catalytic converter after it decided to croak, and don't even have an EGR on my 3300. :cool:

Duke George V
07-02-2009, 06:29 AM
Arkansas = No emission testing

I fuel up at 100% gasoline stations whenever possible. I lack a catalytic converter after it decided to croak, and don't even have an EGR on my 3300. :cool:
I talked about this in another thread, so I'll quote it and add more after:

Clark County, Nevada, has emissions testing, and it's pretty draconian. It's not based on a static amount of time, like 25 years old. You have to go all the way back to model year 1967 to be exempt from testing. There are different qualifications depending on the type of vehicle (car/truck) and the age ('68-'82 or so is the most lenient, and becomes more stringent the newer you get), and anything OBD2 will pass if the SEL light is off and it's not visibly running like shit/spewing smoke. There's even talk of adopting some California Air Resource Board regulations. :eek3: But skip on over to Nye County right next door... no testing. http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/emotes/emot-colbert.gif

There aren't any safety inspections though. I am ambivalent on the subject. On one hand, my car might fail due to rust; on the other, I have seen many cars that should not be on the road and would be taken off by such inspections.
I had the wagon emissions tested today to renew the registration, and even with a suspect EGR and an original cat, it passed. I idly asked the tech if he knew about the emissions laws regarding engine swaps. He seemed to be somewhat knowledgeable, saying that if the swapped engine is the same displacement (or number of cylinders, he wasn't clear) as the stock engine it wouldn't be a problem. If the swapped engine is larger displacement and/or more cylinders, there's a shitload of paperwork that has to be done at the DMV, with an additional caveat: the swapped engine must retain all emissions equipment present on the stock engine and not pollute more than the stock engine. The weird thing about that is I have a larger-than-stock engine and don't recall having to do any extraneous paperwork (outside of the out-of-state vehicle VIN inspection). Maybe it was just cylinders. That would make my tentatively-planned LS4 foray interesting, to say the least. I love dealing with bureaucracies.

Does the LS4 even have EGR? I know the other LS-series engines on which it's based don't...

Anyone know what effect E10 has on our fuel systems? Was E10 even around in '88 when my car was built? I don't have much of a choice in the "100% gasoline" regard, since it's required by at least county law to have 10% ethanol.

Century7667
07-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Anyone know what effect E10 has on our fuel systems? Was E10 even around in '88 when my car was built? I don't have much of a choice in the "100% gasoline" regard, since it's required by at least county law to have 10% ethanol.

I can comment on this as I went to school to be a chemist (ended up in IT though). Basically the ethanol will attack certain engine parts in the fuel delivery system on systems not designed to deal with ethanol. "Rubber" (I use the term loosely) parts in particular. So, E85 is a big no-no for the older vehicles. E10 on the other hand has a much lower concentration of ethanol, so the effect is moderated. I've often wondered about my Century's, especially since they get premium gas. I just don't know what the effect would be over time, but gas companies have been adding ethanol to gas for many years to boost octane...especially when crude is expensive.

My guess....you'll be ok. Who knows, GM might have seen this coming a long ways back.

Ken T.

a1veedubber
07-02-2009, 01:45 PM
The owners manual in the 83 Firenza wagon I just got specifically says that all GM cars are designed for E10. I think that started clear back in the late 70's IIRC.

edit: I will add that although I am not a big fan of ethanol (I think it solves nothing), I have used it exclusively for 20 years now in every car Ive ever owned & had ZERO problems. In Iowa the tax on ethanol is 10 cents cheaper than regular gas so the pump price is always 10 cents cheaper!

turbokinetic
07-03-2009, 02:26 PM
Arkansas = No emission testing

Alabama is another Free State, where to register, you only have to prove you have liability insurance, and they look at the VIN if it is the first time registration in the state.

However the highway partol has been known to do roadside safety inspections if you are pulled over for any reason.

As far as emissions testing in Alabama - if your smoke is not obscuring other drivers' view of the road - your emissions are acceptable. :D



...If it needs a body kit, it doesn't have enough power....


I LOVE that!!!
David

Zaloryan
07-04-2009, 08:06 PM
I LOVE that!!!
David

Thanks!

I have heard that 15% ethanol will cause catalytic converters to go bad on non-Flex-Fuel vehicles. Or at least read bad because the ethanol burns, but doesn't burn as much as regular gasoline...(i.e. more pollutants)

See the 'green' people running us around in a circle?

a1veedubber
07-05-2009, 05:24 AM
Thanks!

I have heard that 15% ethanol will cause catalytic converters to go bad on non-Flex-Fuel vehicles. Or at least read bad because the ethanol burns, but doesn't burn as much as regular gasoline...(i.e. more pollutants)

See the 'green' people running us around in a circle?


I know that it specifically says in my old GM manuals NOT to go over 10%. I have not heard, but are they planning on going over 10% on regular pump gas? :dunno:

turbokinetic
07-05-2009, 02:56 PM
Adding ethanol to gasoline on a non-flex-fuel vehicle causes a "lean mixture" condition. The catalytic converter requires periods of rich mixture in order to "reduce" NOx. If the ethanol concentration is too high (beyond what the closed-loop control can overcome), the system will never go rich enough to reduce NOx.

Will it cause permanent damage to the catalyst? Don't know (but I doubt it.)

David

Century7667
07-05-2009, 07:20 PM
Adding ethanol to gasoline on a non-flex-fuel vehicle causes a "lean mixture" condition. The catalytic converter requires periods of rich mixture in order to "reduce" NOx. If the ethanol concentration is too high (beyond what the closed-loop control can overcome), the system will never go rich enough to reduce NOx.

Will it cause permanent damage to the catalyst? Don't know (but I doubt it.)

David


Agreed. I think the only thing that gets the Catalytic Converter would be over rich fouling it out.

Ken T.

Zaloryan
07-06-2009, 04:07 AM
The newest local Murphy Express fuel station near me has 15% ethanol in its fuel...

a1veedubber
07-06-2009, 05:15 AM
I have been told that the higher % ethanol would cause a lean mixture bad enough that the heat would burn out the O2 sensor, and that in turn causes a rich mixture that takes out the cat.

turbokinetic
07-06-2009, 01:43 PM
I have been told that the higher % ethanol would cause a lean mixture bad enough that the heat would burn out the O2 sensor, and that in turn causes a rich mixture that takes out the cat.

Actually - the hottest combustion temperature is at "stochiometric" where the mixture is "perfect" and all air and all fuel are burned. This is 14.7 to 1 gasoline to air by mass. Also called "lambda" and happens to be the switch point of a narrowband O2 sensor! Will see if I can find a chart that has mixture and exhaust temp graphed.

If you go leaner than this, or richer than this, combustion temperatures cool off. If there is excess fuel (richer than stoich) the extra fuel does not participate chemically in the flame, but it does have mass and absorb some of the heat produced by the flame, thereby "diluting" and lowering the temperature of the exhaust.

In the same respect, if there is excess air (leaner than stoich) the extra air does not participate chemically in the flame, but it does have mass and absorb some of the heat produced by the flame, thereby "diluting" and lowering the temperature of the exhaust.

The old TBI's ran 16:1 AFR's in "highway mode" (when enabled) without damaging the O2 sensor or catalyst

When in "power mode," gasoline engines run far rich of stoichiometric; in the 11 or 12 AFR range. You hear people say "I went lean and burned a valve." they actually didn't go "leaner than stoichiometric," just leaner than their designed power mode AFR. They got too close to 14.7, at that hottest combustion point, and burned a valve.

Some of the "big industrial engines" run very lean all the time by design. Their exhaust temps rise as the mix enriches. If they get too close to stoichiometric, the exhaust system, turbochargers, and even pistons can overheat.

Now back to the possibility of damaging the catalyst - if the ECM has fully adapted to the "lean fuel" with alcohol, and then you switch back to a 100% petroleum fuel - it will run rich until the adaptive fuel trim has a chance to correct its self. It doesn't take long to adapt, so I still doubt this would cause any fouling that wouldn't clear up by its self.

The main things that ruin the catalyst are things that coat it with a film, "poison" the catalyst, or melt the substrate.

Coatings that could keep the exhaust gases from coming in contact with the mesh, could be oil leaking out the exhaust, or rich sooty exhaust.

A correct micture, that has not been burned yet (raw fuel/ air from a faulty ignition system) will burn in the catalyst creating so much heat the catalyst melts down.

Hope this makes sense!
David

a1veedubber
07-06-2009, 02:36 PM
Totally makes sense. I have vague memories of studying this stuff back in Powerplant class (for aircraft) but that was clear back in 1994! Ive forgotten a lot since then!

Somewhere around here I've got a piston (the size of a dinner plate!!) with a hole burned clear through it from too much heat!

Tonglebeak
07-14-2009, 03:42 AM
Good Afternoon: That is true. Beginning August 1 2009 there will be only the idle test and the OBD test.
Thanks
Richard Hahn
VEIP

From: Aaron Slunt [mailto:tonglebeak@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 3:55 PM
To: MVA VEIP Online
Subject: NOx emissions on pre-96 vehicles

Hello, I was told that after August, NOx will no longer be tested on pre-96 vehicles which use the treadmill test. Is this true? Thanks.

What the hell is an idle test? Something that doesn't produce massive NOx emissions I would assume :\