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Metro666
07-14-2009, 07:09 AM
I've been wondering myself if this could be possible on a 3300??
I could get a whole swap from a Z-24 3.1 V6 donor car for relatively cheap price.
What else should i need??
And how do i process the swap??
Any info on the board?? :)

CuttyC 3.3
07-14-2009, 07:50 AM
i am also interested in doing the same thing !! :) if possible.
any info on how to do this would be awesome! I think a few here might have done the swap, but i dunno on a 3.3 tho :/

Buick_powa
07-14-2009, 11:02 AM
you'll need:

HM-282/284 Getrag transmisson
Shifter
Shifter cables
Brake, clutch pedals
Camaro 3.8 V6 Machined Flywheel
clutch,pressure plate from the donor
Clutch Master and slave cylinder

I think thats all

Edit: Car will need a good ECM tune otherwise the car will run like crap

LordDurock
07-14-2009, 02:21 PM
what z-24? is that even an abody.

if not you will need ot make sure the trans mounting brakets for the motor mounts with work.

why does is an 8 bolt flywheel need for the 3300 swap? i woulld say used a fresh never blanced flywheel becuase the 3.1 are extrnaly blanced

Duke George V
07-14-2009, 07:15 PM
Cavalier Z24. And I don't think the pedal and cables will work unless they're from an A-body. Good luck with that.

Paging SCREECH to thread 2399, SCREECH to thread 2399.

Buick_powa
07-14-2009, 09:39 PM
these come from a V6 J-body

86euro
07-15-2009, 02:48 AM
you'll need:

HM-282/284 Getrag transmisson


The 284 is a completely different animal and would require a ton of very hard to find parts. In general, there are no replacement parts available for it either, unless something has changed in the last couple years. It also would take more fabrication to swap.

Duke George V
07-15-2009, 06:32 AM
Yeah, the 284 was a W-body exclusive, only used with the LQ1 engine (3.4L DOHC).

As for the 282, a transmission from any car will work, but like I said, other parts from other platforms aren't directly compatible and would take quite a bit of modification to work. Best bet would be to hit up someone in Mexico. The A-bodies there were optioned with a manual a lot more frequently and longer into their lives than in America. I've seen '93 and newer "Chevy" Cutlasses there with five speeds.

(Tangentially, even though they were marketed as Chevys, or possibly just as "GM", all Cutlasses are clearly still badged as Oldsmobiles.)

Buick_powa
07-16-2009, 02:24 AM
Yeah, the 284 was a W-body exclusive, only used with the LQ1 engine (3.4L DOHC).

As for the 282, a transmission from any car will work, but like I said, other parts from other platforms aren't directly compatible and would take quite a bit of modification to work. Best bet would be to hit up someone in Mexico. The A-bodies there were optioned with a manual a lot more frequently and longer into their lives than in America. I've seen '93 and newer "Chevy" Cutlasses there with five speeds.

(Tangentially, even though they were marketed as Chevys, or possibly just as "GM", all Cutlasses are clearly still badged as Oldsmobiles.)

yeah... but man mexico is like 1 day 12 hours countinous away from our location... this is crazy... better find a Manual V6 J-body with an HM-282... and take everything from it.

Duke George V
07-16-2009, 06:01 PM
yeah... but man mexico is like 1 day 12 hours countinous away from our location... this is crazy... better find a Manual V6 J-body with an HM-282... and take everything from it.
You won't be able to use the pedal and cables without extensive modification unless they come from an A-body.

86euro
07-17-2009, 01:15 AM
You won't be able to use the pedal and cables without extensive modification....

I fail to see the problem here :)

Duke George V
07-17-2009, 01:21 AM
I fail to see the problem here :)
Heh, yeah, I guess if you like a challenge.

LordDurock
07-17-2009, 04:59 AM
clutch is not problem..........brake pedals get very intressing due to that fact that it its studs happen to be the back of the vacuum booster

celebcaleb
07-18-2009, 07:58 AM
idk i've had a friend put a 3800sc in a Beretta with a 5spd and he preaty much had opposite problems.. but he had to buy a adaptor for the trans to work on that motor... ill try to get a hold of him about that one.

Buick_powa
07-21-2009, 12:58 AM
I fail to see the problem here :)

same here...

TonyBuick
07-24-2009, 09:28 PM
Im looking to do a 5-speed swap as well and the way i see it is that if you have the time/money/patience you might as well put what tranny you want to in your a-body. You will be doing some heavy modding anyway but it all depends on what you are gonna
be using the trans for racing or whatever that might also determine what tranny you wanna go with. with all the converting you have to do anyway you might aswell buy the car that has the trans you want so you dont have to hunt for mounts, measurements, steering column etc. Unfortunately for us our cars arent commonly modded making it so we have to be the ones who comes up with what fits what and where and all that. Its going to be a fun challenge though. = )

SCREECH
10-11-2009, 10:33 PM
Paging SCREECH to thread 2399, SCREECH to thread 2399.
Sorry I'm late for the party, guys. :dunno: Been away from the forum for far too long. This is one of my fav topics, a manual transmission swap. I will be updating the thread on my W45 coupe shortly once I get my 5 speed Euro donor car into the garage to strip. I just have to finish the drivetrain swap on the van and get it the heck outta there! I've just been doing too much of this lately - :run: <---like a chicken with it's head cut off.

Anyway, I'm going to try to reply to the most pertinent comments that have been made in the thread so far, so please bear with me, as this'll be a bit long. :sad: One disclaimer to note, however: it has been said that anything is possible with enough time and money and fabrication skills. While this is true, this is not, nor has ever been, my aim. My focus on doing an A-body 5 speed swap has been to integrate as many factory or aftermarket available parts to create a bolt-together solution to acquire the needed result. There have been many different vehicles produced on the A-body platform with a manual transmission and enough parts that are common with other platforms which should allow us to have a fairly painless time at performing this swap. There are some instances, however, where some ingenuity and the correct selection of parts does come into play. This is the route that I am taking, and that any advice or suggestions/info that I provide is aimed at.


I've been wondering myself if this could be possible on a 3300?? I could get a whole swap from a Z-24 3.1 V6 donor car for relatively cheap price. What else should i need?? And how do i process the swap??
I know this might be a moot point now as it's been months since this post, but if you can get a Z24 or Sunbird GT with a V6 and a Getrag 5 speed (RPO MG2), do it. There's a lot of parts that you can harvest from it that are worthwhile, esp if you can get the car for $300 or less. The transmissions often sell for $200-$300 from wreckers, so that'll take a big chunk out of your costs. I purchased a '90 Cavie RS 3.1 with the Getrag 5 speed when I was first planning to convert my '90 Euro wagon. However, after much research and parts acquisition I have learned a thing or two. Here's a few things to note regarding the J-bodies:

- the J-body mounts its drivetrain COMPLETELY differently from the A-body setup, so thow away any mounts and brackets that come out of the Cavalier.
- the shifter cables are shorter than the A-body cables, so they won't do you any good.
- the turbocharged 2.0L Sunbird GTs used the Getrag 5 speed transmission, the bellhousing is a different for the 4 cylinder, and a couple gear ratios are a little different, but not substantially.
- the J-body shifter assembly appears that it will work in place of an A-body shifter, and it uses a smooth leather boot which might be easier to replace than the corrugated vinyl boot that the A-body shifters came with, which are often busted - might be worth yanking considering using it.
- the clutch safety switch for the ignition, mounted on the firewall under the clutch pedal, is the same between the A-bodies and J-bodies, and probably several other manual equipped FWD GMs, so snag this too.
- Cavaliers and Sunbirds continued being equipped the Getrag on their V6 offerings up until '94. By that time, however, the transaxle had evolved to using a throwout bearing with an integrated hydraulic release. Between that version and the version with the external throwout release arm as found on the A-bodies of '87/'88 is a version that had the slave cylinder mounted directly on the bellhousing activating an internal release arm - this is the style that came out of the '90 RS I acquired. These transmission can be used in an A-body but will require the clutch hydraulics to be adapted by putting the appropriate slave cylinder onto the A-body's hydraulic assembly.
- grab any switches that are on the pedal brackets as these are often able to be used on the A-body pedals, depending on whether or not you have/want cruise control.
- the drive axles are not usable for the A-body as the J-body uses an intermediate shaft on the right axle. I believe the left axle is shorter as well as the J-body is a smaller platform. I did not confirm this before ridding myself of the J-bodies axles I had, however. Regardless, if you have JA2 brakes you'll have the larger splined hubs for the front axles, and the J-body uses the smaller splined axles as found on JA1 A-body cars.


Any info on the board?? :)
There have been several threads dealing with this topic in the past. Do a search for topic names only including the word "manual" or "speed" and you'll find several. Any remaining questions can certainly be posted in here - I'd say just to email me or msg me, but that doesn't help future people looking for answers. Eventually we need to have a knowledge base article on this topic as it seems to keep coming up.


For the following list from Buick_powa I will post where such items can be acquired from, etc:
you'll need:

HM-282/284 Getrag transmisson
I would recommend the 282 for a few reasons - a lot cheaper and easier to acquire as they were used in so many platforms and applications, plus you can get a limited slip differential for the 282. Last time I heard the 284 was still not a good rebuild candidate as Getrag never released the licensing for aftermarket parts. I am fairly confident that the brackets for the 284 would be different as well, and so you may have to do actual custom fabrication in order to get this transaxle to mount to the A-body subframe cradle. Another reason that I would chose the 282, hands down.
Shifter
This can be acquired from several FWD applications. This does NOT need to be an A-body part. As long as it'll bolt onto the floor using the bolt pattern that's there and has the same configuration for the A-body cables, you can take your pick at which one best suits your tastes.
Shifter cables
http://screech.ws/miscpics/celeb_4-5-speed_parts/cables-assemblies1.jpg
The shifter cables from a factory A-body installation are longer than a J-body's cables. The 5 speed Getrag A-body cables are a little longer than the 4 speed Muncie cables, but both should work. If you can find cables in a manual transmission equipped X-body (such as a Citation, Skylark, Firenza or Phoenix) you may be able to use them. Alternatively, cables can be custom made from places like West Cost Fiero (http://www.westcoastfiero.com/cables/cables.html).
Brake, clutch pedals
Must be from an A-body or X-body. If you are doing a cable-clutch Muncie 4 speed installation (or a Getrag 5 speed that uses a cable for it's clutch actuation) you can use the pedals from either an '86 or older A-body or a cable-clutch X-body. I don't know if the X-bodies ever used clutch hydraulics, but I doubt it. NOTE: as I mentioned on my disclaimer above, I am fully aware that pedals could be fab'd with enough time and resources. What I am more interested in is a bolt-together solution, which is highly realistic and potentially much safer. There was a user on here that adapted Beretta pedals only to have them break later on. J-body pedals would require more fabrication to use them in an A-body than would creating pedals from scratch, in my opinion. So, I am labeling this item as an A/X-body only part.
Camaro 3.8 V6 Machined Flywheel
Yes, this is required if installing the manual transmission setup onto a 3300 or 3800 engine as both of these engines use an 8-bolt flywheel to crank configuration. I have personally bolted a Series-II 3800 flywheel to one of my 3300s when I purchased a couple of the flywheels off eBay a while back and confirmed that they did indeed fit. I have not had the one machined down yet, but may be doing this for my '89 Ciera. The car will be getting a 4.9L V8 engine, but I may set the 3300 up for the 5 speed before doing the 4.9 conversion. I have the measurements as to how much machining will need to be done, which I believe is a quarter of an inch, but I would have to look it up.
clutch,pressure plate from the donor
This can actually be new units for a 2.8/3.1 5 speed equipped car, be it a Fiero or Cavalier. If you look up an '87 or '88 Fiero 5 speed clutch you will have more high performance options presented to you. Even if you use the 3800 flywheel you will need to use the FWD clutch setup for the proper clearance. I have not purchased and bolted the clutch setup up to the 3800 flywheel to check the bolt pattern compatibility myself yet, but that's what I'm told guys running this setup have used.
Clutch Master and slave cylinder
http://www.oem-surplus.com/sarah/mastcyl6414a.jpg
The master cylinder and hydraulic hose is an A-body only part. The J-bodies used a clutch master cylinder that had an integrated reservoir. This is not an option for the A-bodies as the brake booster and strut tower are too close to provide the needed clearance. Therefore, the factory A-body master cylinder used a remote reservoir that bolted to the driver's strut tower. The slave cylinder may need to be changed (see comments above in J-body information section) depending upon the model of transmission used. Currently, a company called Neosho out of WI, is liquidating many NOS parts for GM vehicles. When I spoke with them a couple years ago they had over 30 complete clutch hydraulic setups for '87/'88 Celebrities, selling them for $35 ea! Here's one HERE (search.ebay.com/370263744425)! Also, new clutch hydraulic components, such as the master cylinder, are parts that do fail from time to time and are therefore available in the aftermarket.
I think thats all
Drive axles and transaxle mounts will also be needed. The transaxle mount brackets will need to be specifically for a Getrag (or Muncie if that's what you're doing) transaxle and specifically for the type of cradle you're dealing with - in this case an A- or X-body. The drive axles were also available in the aftermarket last time I checked. Yup, just checked RockAuto (rockauto.com) for an '88 Celebrity, and they list Cardone axles for almost every application. However, they only list 20mm splines for the manual transmission application (JA1), but the ends are fairly straightforward to change if you are using JA2 brakes.

Also, if you want the correct lockout on the steering column you will need to obtain an A- or X-body steering column with the lockout arm in front of the ign tumbler. This lockout prevented turning the key back to the LOCK position in a "panic shutdown", retaining your steering capability.


Edit: Car will need a good ECM tune otherwise the car will run like crap
If your transmission is electronically controlled, this is true. If, though, you are using the 440-T4 transmission, the computer does not freak out if the automatic transmission is not there. It will try to lock the torque converter and things like that, but it won't crap out if the transmission is not there as the ECMs do that actually control the transmission's shifts.



Cavalier Z24. And I don't think the pedal and cables will work unless they're from an A-body.
As I mentioned above, that's true. The pedals for the J-body are so incredibly different from the A-body 5 speed pedals that even if I were looking to modify factory pedals to use in the A-body, I would look for a different set than to start with a set of J-pedals. Way, WAY different. :banghead:



As for the 282, a transmission from any car will work...
Just to clarify this, any V6 FWD HM-282 should work - like I mentioned above, you could get the turbo J-bodies with the 282, but it's option code MG1 and has a different bellhousing. These can be made to work by splitting the case and swapping the bellhousing portion, but there's enough 282s out there to make this not necessary. Oh, and the 282 was also used on Quad4s, but again, bellhousing would need to be changed. There was a version used in '92/'93 on the HO Quad4 with a 3.94 final drive, however. If you're looking for full ba!!s out racing that'd be a sweet upgrade! :rock:


Best bet would be to hit up someone in Mexico. The A-bodies there were optioned with a manual a lot more frequently and longer into their lives than in America. I've seen '93 and newer "Chevy" Cutlasses there with five speeds.
Although this may seem like the best option, using a site like Car-Part.com (http://www.car-part.com) has always net'd me hits throughout the US of 5 speed A-body cars that were still in the yards. Some yards will know how uncommon these cars were and refrain from crushing them for this reason. If you can get your hands on a complete car you're laughing. But, worst case, if you can at least get the pedals, shift cables, steering column, drive axles and trans brackets you'll be well along the way to putting together a quite-complete, quite factory-correct, swap kit.



idk i've had a friend put a 3800sc in a Beretta...he had to buy a adaptor for the trans to work on that motor.
If you get a Getrag from a 2.8 or 3.1 V6 equipped vehicle the belhousing will bolt to most any GM FWD V6, including the 3.0, 3300, and 3.8/3800 (Series I, II or III).


...with all the converting you have to do anyway you might aswell buy the car that has the trans you want so you dont have to hunt for mounts, measurements, steering column etc. Unfortunately for us our cars arent commonly modded making it so we have to be the ones who comes up with what fits what and where and all that. Its going to be a fun challenge though. = )
Like I mentioned, this doesn't need to be a particularly challenging endeavor. There are enough factory parts out there to make it a virtually bolt-together solution. If you can get your hands on a complete A-/X-body manual transmission vehicle then you can get most, if not all, of the parts required to do the conversion. Otherwise you will have to source parts from different locations, but it can still be doable with minimal or no fabrication. :rock:

TonyBuick
10-21-2009, 06:03 PM
The 5 speed from the 93 Olds in mexico is for the 3.3 right? Anyone got a part number for that so i could see if maybe my parts department could help find some? also im an hour from the mexico border so im trying to get some buddies down for a roadtrip to find this trans in a junkyard or something. I could bring back some extras for you guys if i could locate a place. also is there a place online that maybe we could actually order?

SCREECH
10-21-2009, 08:56 PM
The 5 speed from the 93 Olds in mexico is for the 3.3 right?
Well, yes and no. As I mention above the bellhousing is the same on the 3300 and 3800s as they are on the 2.8L and 3.1L. HOWEVER, they used the 3.1L 60-degree V6 in the Mexican Cieras even up into '95 (perhaps later, but I have pics of '95s with the 3.1). I haven't seen any native Mexican A-bodies with the 3300. They would use the same parts that the '87-'88 6000s and Celebs used with the 2.8L 5 speeds. It's not the transmission that needs to be different if you're hooking an HM-282 up to a 3300, it's the flywheel. And GM did not make a production 8-bolt flywheel for a transverse configuration.

The only difference with the manual parts on those cars *MIGHT* be the setup of the slave cylinder on the transaxle, that they might have gone with the slave cylinder bolted right to the bellhousing of the transaxle, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even do this since they were still running the GenII 3.1 late in production down there - probably lots of leftover parts. :lol: The Cieras up in the USA and Canada never got the 3.1L, actually - they stopped using the second generation 60-degree V6s in '89 and you could only get the 4 cylinder or the 3300. It wasn't until '94 that the 60-degrees returned, when the 3100 became available. So GM basically took a mish-mash of parts and put them together to make those cars. Other than the additional body treatments and special speedometers (200km/h, no mph) they didn't have much in the way of special parts minted for those cars that I'm aware of.


...im an hour from the mexico border so im trying to get some buddies down for a roadtrip to find this trans in a junkyard or something.
If you DO head south of the border, see about snagging me a cluster from one of those badboys!! :rock: A spoiler wouldn't be frowned upon either.

TonyBuick
11-05-2009, 12:00 AM
So I have to decided to go with the Pontiac G6 F40 6speed 3.55 ratio for my conversion. I found one for $525 in Kalamazoo. If I can pull the money together I think thats the way im gonna go. if anyone else is interested in this trans the partnumber is 55561229. That trans is out of an 06 and looks like its a brand new trans. would I need anything else from a G6 other than a clutch disk? Im really anxious to get this project going and I think a 6speed would be pretty sweet once Im boosted.

86euro
11-05-2009, 12:58 AM
Get the axles and the shifter/cables. Then if possible get anything else related to being a manual.

SCREECH
11-05-2009, 10:44 PM
So I have to decided to go with the Pontiac G6 F40 6speed 3.55 ratio for my conversion...would I need anything else from a G6 other than a clutch disk?
I looked into this transmission as an option for my '89 Ciera International project. I ruled it out as the transmission uses what's called a dual-mass flywheel which adds a whole lotta aggravation to the setup. When I was last researching the project a year or two ago it just wasn't going to be feasible, and with the ultra-low cost for the HM-282 Getrags it just didn't make sense for me to go that route. I'd look into all the parts that you'll need to go between the engine and transmission and confirm that you're going to be able to mate it up to whatever engine you're using.

Buick_powa
11-08-2009, 09:47 PM
I looked into this transmission as an option for my '89 Ciera International project. I ruled it out as the transmission uses what's called a dual-mass flywheel which adds a whole lotta aggravation to the setup. When I was last researching the project a year or two ago it just wasn't going to be feasible, and with the ultra-low cost for the HM-282 Getrags it just didn't make sense for me to go that route. I'd look into all the parts that you'll need to go between the engine and transmission and confirm that you're going to be able to mate it up to whatever engine you're using.

Dual-mass flywheel is a pure crap... you can use single mass to replace them without any damages

LordDurock
11-08-2009, 11:26 PM
the only thing dual mass flywheels are good for it reducing harmnic vibrations at a certain rpm.........and are really only good for highway crussing

TonyBuick
11-10-2009, 04:27 AM
I looked into this transmission as an option for my '89 Ciera International project. I ruled it out as the transmission uses what's called a dual-mass flywheel which adds a whole lotta aggravation to the setup. When I was last researching the project a year or two ago it just wasn't going to be feasible, and with the ultra-low cost for the HM-282 Getrags it just didn't make sense for me to go that route. I'd look into all the parts that you'll need to go between the engine and transmission and confirm that you're going to be able to mate it up to whatever engine you're using.

so the HM-282 is our only viable option for conversion?

Duke George V
11-10-2009, 03:15 PM
HM 282 five speed or Muncie four speed were stock options. But with enough money, anything can be done.

TonyBuick
11-12-2009, 11:53 PM
where would be the best place to purchase the HM-282 and whats the aftermarket options for internal upgrades, staged clutch, gear ratio change etc?

Duke George V
11-13-2009, 01:12 AM
"Performance" gears from an Olds Achieva W41/Quad 442 are a pretty popular swap. When combined with an "economy" overdrive gear you can still get decent highway economy. Try manual-transmission.com (http://www.manual-transmission.com/) to buy a whole unit. You have to specify an '87 or '88 6000 or Celebrity with V6 if you want the five speed.

EDIT: This page lists most GM cars. (http://www.manual-transmission.com/?q=node/25) It doesn't list the engine for the 6000/Celebrity, but it does ask you to specify gear driven or pulse-style VSS.

razoredge
11-15-2009, 01:35 AM
Simply put the tranny is not worth it nor up to the torque of the 3.3 or 3.8 (old five speeds).

My ex and I had a G6 GTP with the new 6 speed stick. Worked good and was fun for awhile but the novelity wore off as the knees got tired. The clutch action was heavy and long. Later we wished we had gotten the auto with slap shift. It went like hell though.

86euro
11-15-2009, 02:04 AM
Simply put the tranny is not worth it nor up to the torque of the 3.3 or 3.8 (old five speeds).

I think all the V8 Fiero owners would say otherwise:)

razoredge
11-15-2009, 04:46 AM
I think all the V8 Fiero owners would say otherwise:)

But how many have they broken w 3.8's or stock 3.1's? they also come equiped in the car so its not like this big conversion or that they have many options. I lost my romance with linkage shift FWD standards with that G6 and my understanding was that 6 speed was much better built to take the 240/240 that the 3.9 had.

LordDurock
11-15-2009, 05:51 AM
Simply put the tranny is not worth it nor up to the torque of the 3.3 or 3.8 (old five speeds).

My ex and I had a G6 GTP with the new 6 speed stick. Worked good and was fun for awhile but the novelity wore off as the knees got tired. The clutch action was heavy and long. Later we wished we had gotten the auto with slap shift. It went like hell though.

the 3.3 puts out 175 a touch more then a 4.3 diesel which had a muncie 4 (weaker then 282) also like 86euro said i think 350 horse 350s in the back of a ferio would clear up putting a 150hp motor with that trans in a heaver car.

razoredge
11-15-2009, 11:45 AM
Geeze then they ought to use that tranny for the Corvette, why did they bother spending the money and doing all the RnD on the Corvette drivetrain when they just could have used the old getrag ? Maybe things have changed but word always was that the standards could not survive abuse and were not designed for the larger engines, of course the auto was limited too without modifications. Regardless I still dont think its worth the effort to convert a FWD auto to the old getrag. Money and time better spent on engine mods. I once thought about doing it too. The new 6 spped is neat but its like a novelty, drive one for a year and then get in a regular G6 with the slap stick and wonder what you were thinking.

Century7667
11-15-2009, 12:50 PM
Geeze then they ought to use that tranny for the Corvette, why did they bother spending the money and doing all the RnD on the Corvette drivetrain when they just could have used the old getrag ? Maybe things have changed but word always was that the standards could not survive abuse and were not designed for the larger engines, of course the auto was limited too without modifications. Regardless I still dont think its worth the effort to convert a FWD auto to the old getrag. Money and time better spent on engine mods. I once thought about doing it too. The new 6 spped is neat but its like a novelty, drive one for a year and then get in a regular G6 with the slap stick and wonder what you were thinking.

There was a time when you could count on a manual gearbox to outlast the frame of the car (well, when cars had frames anyway..), and the Auto was the weaker tranny.

Those days are long gone now. I realized this when my lowly 2.2 SFI equipped S10 started having problems. Hydraulic clutch release is neat, but it doesn't last as long as the clutch, and the gearbox wines and sounds like someone filled it with glass marbles. Just 126,000 miles. When I pulled it all apart, the clutch was just fine, but everything else was hurting. In the '70s the *clutch* was the the first thing to go. I didn't drive that thing abusively.

My point here is that, I wonder about the durability of these boxes too (for the a-body). Perhaps the 80's boxes were still strong, but the late 90's designed NV1500 (There's a sticker on the top of the tranny that says "Muncie") can't even hold a 120 HP four banger. Now, if you want durability, you get an auto.

Sad really, the manual is a lot of fun to drive.

About 6 spds. I could get tired of shifting one of those. I had a 3 spd. manual in '76 Chevy. That was ok, never got tired of jamming 3 gears, the engine had the power and torque to deal with it. My 4 cyl. S10, took some getting used to chasing 5 gears. Long days in Houston will get me tired of it. Not the clutch so much, but all that shifting.

For me, give me 3 forward gears and a 4th for overdrive and a motor that can deal with it...and forget the hydraulic clutch, they drive nice, but don't last.

Ken T.

razoredge
11-15-2009, 01:02 PM
yes, I drive Fuller 10 speeds all day and thats more than enough for me. At least with them you dont need to use the clutch between gears. Direct shift boxes like top loaders, truck trannys and certain old sports cars spoils one too, those linkage shit manuals never feel right to me, always like your about to break something with all the flex in the linkage,

You also cant outshift an auto

86euro
11-15-2009, 03:43 PM
Geeze then they ought to use that tranny for the Corvette, why did they bother spending the money and doing all the RnD on the Corvette drivetrain when they just could have used the old getrag ? Maybe things have changed but word always was that the standards could not survive abuse and were not designed for the larger engines, of course the auto was limited too without modifications. Regardless I still dont think its worth the effort to convert a FWD auto to the old getrag. Money and time better spent on engine mods. I once thought about doing it too. The new 6 spped is neat but its like a novelty, drive one for a year and then get in a regular G6 with the slap stick and wonder what you were thinking.

Umm, maybe because the Corvette is rear wheel drive:uh:

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Izuzu 5 speeds used in the 4cyl Berettas? If a getrag 282 ever did die behind a stock 3.8, it was probably because the owner of the car did not know how to drive. That's if it has even ever happened.

And lastly, the amount of forward gears is not a novelty. Either you are willing to put up with shifting it yourself, or you are not. Some people like it, some don't. Simple as that.

razoredge
11-15-2009, 04:53 PM
Thanks for telling me the Vette was RWD, still somehow you missed the point. C5 was 350 hp and somehow I imagine its a much beefier tranny than anybodys got in a Fiero and for a reason, its called engineering.

Yes I knew there was the two trannys but it seems the talk was the 282 was minimal as well, built for lower V6 power. Maybe all this has been proven to not be a problem, I have not been keeping up with the latest in 4-5 years. Regardless of whether someone wants to shift or not the main point I started with was its just not worth the work involved.

I will not agree about the numbers of gears not being a novelity, its all sales promotional bells and whistles, "one more gear", that G6 needs that extra gear like it needed a hole in the floor board. All that work into that tranny and engine and it still had nothing on the L67 and 65E, even with torque managment, you'd be shifting gears and the LSS would be gone . There was the advantage of 87 octane, I'll give it that. Im not downing the power plant, we mostly loved the car and bought it for all these "new" reasons but it didnt take long to see it was mostly new pieces not new and improved over what had been around for years. Mileage was lower than L67, performance was less due to the shifting, it was leaking at the rear main at 8000 miles, it was not positive shifting. The pedal arrangement and clutch action was from another planet, I mean you had to push that clutch THROUGH the floor board.

Someday I will have to test drive the new Lacrosse to check out the new 6 sp auto but I still question the necessity of "more gears". even the 65E is annoying in the hilly country I live in, was easier to pull it down into drive.They have claimed to have worked out some of those searching problems.

86euro
11-15-2009, 10:21 PM
Whatever dude. You're comparing apples to oranges and you don't like manual trannies. Just because the swap is not worthwhile to you does not mean everyone else feels the same as you. There is no right or wrong answer here.

razoredge
11-16-2009, 02:20 AM
Would it have been easier if I said IMO ?

I like sticks, I have done lots of shifting in my days, too much. Its still my advise that its simply not worth it for the novelty value because there is no other value, it has NO gains. Then I was relaying information about the tranny I got a few years back from the W body people because some would entertain the idea. W's have a bigger obstical due to never having the pedals in the first place. I also did some research on the various trannys back then too. They just didnt sound beefy enough though the 282 and it seems there was a 284 or something which was even hardier. If I got on my old PC I might still have the files I saved. Then theres all the machining of flywheel and adaptation, again for no gains other than the novelity of having a "stick". With the Fiero guys this is one of the trannys they have to work with to put their bigger engines so they are getting the gains from what ever they are transplanting. Seriously I researched it once myself because I wanted to put one in the LeSabre, this was my conclusion. I made up for it by buying the G6 which had a tranny built for the power of that engine. Then the novelity wore off... QUICK ! Aside from the practicality issue it was one of the main reasons my ex traded it, her knee was honestly getting sore from shifting that damn thing all the time. It did have a brutal clutch, we even had it looked at under warrantee and tehy said thats how they all are, they need to be pushed clear to the floor to disengage, no adjustments. I cant speak for the older 5 speed in Js and such on that issue.

86euro
11-16-2009, 03:24 AM
OK, that post made more sense (to me, at least) and I can see some of your points. Not wanting to go with a stick because of a flywheel issue is one thing, and to some people it's not a big deal, but some it might be. Not wanting to use a 282 because of it's strength, however, is just silly. It has been proven over and over again to hold up to a lot of power. I also agree, that sometimes having one more gear is useless. But a lot of the time, depending on the particular engine's powerband, having one more gear makes all the difference in the world. I have nothing really to say about the 6 speed G6, as I have never even seen one in person yet. By your description, it sounds like a poorly designed setup.

LordDurock
11-16-2009, 03:57 AM
Thanks for telling me the Vette was RWD, still somehow you missed the point. C5 was 350 hp and somehow I imagine its a much beefier tranny than anybodys got in a Fiero and for a reason, its called engineering.

Yes I knew there was the two trannys but it seems the talk was the 282 was minimal as well, built for lower V6 power. Maybe all this has been proven to not be a problem, I have not been keeping up with the latest in 4-5 years. Regardless of whether someone wants to shift or not the main point I started with was its just not worth the work involved.

I will not agree about the numbers of gears not being a novelity, its all sales promotional bells and whistles, "one more gear", that G6 needs that extra gear like it needed a hole in the floor board. All that work into that tranny and engine and it still had nothing on the L67 and 65E, even with torque managment, you'd be shifting gears and the LSS would be gone . There was the advantage of 87 octane, I'll give it that. Im not downing the power plant, we mostly loved the car and bought it for all these "new" reasons but it didnt take long to see it was mostly new pieces not new and improved over what had been around for years. Mileage was lower than L67, performance was less due to the shifting, it was leaking at the rear main at 8000 miles, it was not positive shifting. The pedal arrangement and clutch action was from another planet, I mean you had to push that clutch THROUGH the floor board.

Someday I will have to test drive the new Lacrosse to check out the new 6 sp auto but I still question the necessity of "more gears". even the 65E is annoying in the hilly country I live in, was easier to pull it down into drive.They have claimed to have worked out some of those searching problems.

it is for the fact that teh car wieghts more. which mean more drive train strees it call just that engineering ;). think about it 350hp camro get a 10 bolt (8.5 diff) subraben with a 350HP 350 (same motor) gets a 12 bolt

razoredge
11-16-2009, 04:20 AM
So what cars & engines came with the 282 ? I have forgotten, Im assuming the Beretta ?

If they are holding up its been at least mostly a new discovery. At the time I was more auto active most of the N*, L67 and V8 transplants were "in the process" and most were concerned about the tranny issue. Just like other automatics that come into question after power has been built. Also at that time the word was the Buick V6's were never put against the getrag due to the torque, but most likely another reason was that new Buick or Olds buyers of that time would have never opted for a standard anyhow, no demand.

Duke George V
11-16-2009, 05:22 AM
The downfall of the F40 box is the cliff that is the 1-2 shift. I think first is 3.74 or something, and second is closer to 2.07. Even with the pushrod 3.9 it was meant to be behind, that's a huge drop in revs, larger even than the 700R4/4L60(3.08-1.68 I think) and the 440-T4/4T60 (2.92-1.58). That and the double overdrive doesn't really seem like much of a benefit, since fifth is 0.85 and sixth is 0.68 or so. If it had an intermediate ratio, like ~2.8 for second, and made fifth 1:1 instead of fourth, it would probably be a decent box.

EDIT:
So what cars & engines came with the 282 ? I have forgotten, Im assuming the Beretta ?
A (Celebrity/6000 2.8), J (Cavalier/Sunbird 2.8/3.1), L (Beretta/Corsica 2.8/3.1, rare in Corsica), N (Grand Am/Cutlass Calais/Achieva Quad 4), and P (Fiero 2.8) cars. Maybe W's also? (Grand Prix/Lumina/Regal/Cutlass Supreme) There was also an Isuzu five speed used with the low output four cylinders (Duke and 2.2), but they're notoriously weak.

razoredge
11-16-2009, 10:17 AM
As I recall no w's were available with a standard, but I could be wrong.

I didnt notice a ratio problem or power delivery problem with the G6 and now that you bring this up Im sorry I cant take it out for a spin and see if what you are talking about was an issue. As I remember it it was smooth and strong in those aspects and at redline shift in all gears it was a monster. It had the most torque steer of any FWD I have ever driven, something the H body L67 cars seemed to have little of. It kind of felt like it was trying to tear itself apart and I have no doubt it would in short order if pushed hard dayly. It was also the best handling FWD I have driven, with the clunky rear suspension that the W's had absent. The H's being luxury designed still have that American lux liner float but were at least smooth.

Is that 6sp obsolete now with the G6 gone ?

TonyBuick
11-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Would it have been easier if I said IMO ?

Then the novelity wore off... QUICK ! Aside from the practicality issue it was one of the main reasons my ex traded it, her knee was honestly getting sore from shifting that damn thing all the time. It did have a brutal clutch, we even had it looked at under warrantee and tehy said thats how they all are, they need to be pushed clear to the floor to disengage, no adjustments. I cant speak for the older 5 speed in Js and such on that issue.

If the clutch is that much trouble you can rpm match. You dont need a clutch to shift gears.

86euro
11-17-2009, 12:17 AM
You could get a getrag 284 in a W-body. I have seen them in Pontiacs, Olds, and the Chevy, they were all behind a 3.4 DOHC. I had a 284 equipped Lumina Z34 and it looked like a b**** to get the pedal assembly out.

Supposedly you could get a 282 in a W also, but they seem to be a needle in a haystack.

Prospeeder
11-17-2009, 01:37 AM
282 just a 2.8/3.1 car with a stick, not easy but not majorly rare either, the 284 would be harder to find i would think.

skalor
11-17-2009, 02:12 AM
I have seen a bunch of 284s in yards and have personally pulled out three myself. I've only ever seen one 282 W-body.

razoredge
11-17-2009, 01:58 PM
If the clutch is that much trouble you can rpm match. You dont need a clutch to shift gears.

I know this, one of my jobs over the years has been driving fullers or macks of various types but this does not work so well in cars for some reason. I did shift that car a few times without but it was very difficult.

razoredge
11-17-2009, 02:05 PM
So the 284 was the hardier trans ?

How did they hold up to the 3.4, I suppose the engine was more tedious than the tranny. A friend of mine actually has a Z34 on the road, not in bad shape and it is for sale but somehow I just wouldnt want to get involved. I seem to be leary of the N* too, just not user friendly for the do it yourselfer's. Love the cars they come in... but!