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SCREECH
10-26-2009, 03:44 AM
This swap might as well be being done on an A-body, except that the cowl and rear part of the body is a bit bigger. ;) Regardless, I've got this whole swap thing going on, and I figured someone on here might care. :kekeke:

The drivetrain came from a '92 Park Ave Ultra, and my van is a '92 Trans Sport, so the harness only needed 3 add'l wires added for the actual engine management. I have a bit of finishing up to do before it's running, but it's 95% together, with pretty much just the underdash wiring left to do. These few pics give you a bit of a sneak peak...

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/01.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/02.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/03.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/04.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/05.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/06.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/07.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/08.jpg

Anyway, I'll be posting more shortly. S'all for now, folks!

Duke George V
10-26-2009, 04:17 AM
Yes!

So did you drop out the engine and transmission as one assembly and swap them together?

Jet
10-26-2009, 04:18 AM
We've been needing a fresh project to follow on here...carry on...

cutlassburnin
10-26-2009, 04:21 AM
niceee...whats the weight of a u-van anyway?

Prospeeder
10-26-2009, 04:45 AM
Thats awsome!!

Duke George V
10-26-2009, 04:56 AM
niceee...whats the weight of a u-van anyway?
Most sources have it around 3700 lbs, which is about what most large mid-size and full-size cars weigh these days. Gotta love fiberglass body panels. And even setting aside the supercharger, the 3800 vans were the best performing vans for several years.

Seven people to go.http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/emotes/burnout.gif

Fake edit: Looking at the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine#L67_Supercharged) for the Series I L67, a '94-95 supercharger would add a bit of power and probably bolt right on. Something to look at, SCREECH.

LordDurock
10-26-2009, 05:13 AM
thats hard core :)

bubblebob88
10-26-2009, 02:50 PM
Sweet! Turbo it!!!

turbokinetic
10-27-2009, 12:58 AM
Love it! Thanks for posting and keep up the projects!
David

Jr's3800
10-28-2009, 01:45 AM
Most sources have it around 3700 lbs, which is about what most large mid-size and full-size cars weigh these days. Gotta love fiberglass body panels. And even setting aside the supercharger, the 3800 vans were the best performing vans for several years.



Seven people to go.http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/leftventricle/emotes/burnout.gif

Fake edit: Looking at the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine#L67_Supercharged) for the Series I L67, a '94-95 supercharger would add a bit of power and probably bolt right on. Something to look at, SCREECH.

The Gen 3 with the coated rotors will work, but uses a larger throttle body and an 03a MAF sensor... So his tables would be off..

For the current I would stick with what he has and use the 92-93 Gen 2 M62...

Screech, would you ever consider a newer PCM to control it?

SCREECH
10-28-2009, 03:47 AM
So did you drop out the engine and transmission as one assembly and swap them together?
Yeah, I used the engine AND transmission from the Park Avenue in the van. I did not unbolt them - ran them in the PA, pulled the drivetrain as an assembly and swapped it onto the van's cradle. I'm running the PA's computer and everything, so it won't know anything's different, as EVERYTHING is migrating to the van.

The transmission is the same as what the van had, the 4T60-E. What started this whole swap was that I had read somewhere online that the 4T60-E HD was available only in the Caddy V8 cars, the 3800 U-vans (which mine is) and the supercharged 3800 cars. So I figured I'd best stick with the HD version in the van, so I started searching for a van to part, but didn't find one I was comfortable with. So I started looking at the supercharged cars and got the idea to swap the supercharged drivetrain in. I've since learned that the ONLY actual HD versions of the 4T60-E were offered only in '96, and ONLY on the supercharged Series II L67s, before they went to the 4T65-E. Oh well, at least I got an L67 out of my "mistake". :rock: I saw TONS of cars that had a good naturally aspirated 3800 and a good transmission that I could have swapped, sans wiring and bracketry changes, and the van would have been back on the road way faster. But what fun would that be?


...for the Series I L67, a '94-95 supercharger would add a bit of power and probably bolt right on.

The Gen 3 with the coated rotors will work, but uses a larger throttle body and an 03a MAF sensor... So his tables would be off..
There were 3 things that they changed to gain the extra 20HP and 15TQ from '93 to '94 - the mods to the 'charger, the larger TB, and the transition to
roller rockers. I may very well do the roller rockers at some point (Yella Terra makes them for the '92 engines, which have a different rocker stud size from the '93+ Series I engines), but I don't know if I'm going to be getting into swapping the supercharger and TB/MAF. If all the changes they made net'd them the above quoted extra power, the roller lifters have got to be near half of the difference. It would not be worth it to me for that add'l half to swap the charger, TB, etc, etc and deal with all of the other modifications with the programming that would be necessary. Someone on the Pontiac Bonneville Club forum pointed out that little things would need attention, such as the EGR tube on the '94/'95 engines being larger than the previous years, so if the newer 'charger was installed, the existing EGR tube between the valve and the charger would need to be swapped or modified to seal at the new supercharger.


Sweet! Turbo it!!!

Screech, would you ever consider a newer PCM to control it?
I'm going to concentrate on getting it running and reliable before I consider doing anything further to it for now. It's supposed to be my daily driver, so I am more concerned, at this point, about reliability than squeezing every ounce of performance out of it. I think I'll leave the turbo'd L67 market to Skalor for the time being. :lol:

As for the newer PCM, what were you thinking, and why do you ask? I am, for the moment, just looking to get the van running with the factory setup from the Park Avenue. I have no current plans whatsoever thereafter, other than driving it and surprising the odd car at a stoplight. It certainly won't be the fastest thing on the road by any stretch of the imagination, don't get me wrong - I ain't going 'Vette hunting or anything. But with the L27 it was a pretty healthy performer before. I expect to simply "enjoy" the added performance of the supercharger, and "show it off" when given the opportunity.

As for future plans, I suppose the only that I DO have would be the rockers I mentioned above, and perhaps swapping the sprockets in the the transmission to a 35/35 set. The FDR unit in the transmission is the 3.33:1, but the sprockets give it an effective ratio of 2.97:1. So jumping back up to the 3.33:1 with the L67 would really wake it up! :rock:

Thank you all for your support and encouragement. This "project" (which, as I mentioned, is supposed to be my daily, was supposed to be finished back in JULY. I think I need all the encouragement I can get at this point as one thing after another has been getting in the way. At least almost everything is done now. I have to hook up the vacuum line for the cabin accessories (HVAC controls), and then do the underdash wiring (PCM, VATS, two-flow electric power steering, oil level and life monitors). I'll post more details as soon as I can, along with pictures. Stay tuned!

SCREECH
10-28-2009, 04:02 AM
Duke George - to further answer your question about whether I changed both the engine and the transmission, I had forgotten when I had written the reply above, I had pulled a few more pics out of the cache of over 100 pics I've taken so far of this swap:

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/09.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/10.jpg

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/11.jpg

I also forgot to mention that the van's transmission had gone south on me, which is why I started this whole thing in the first place. The L67 was just a nice side benefit to getting a replacement "transmission".

Enjoy the add'l pics!

Jr's3800
10-28-2009, 04:31 AM
Screech, for the VATS if you know anyone that knows how to write the chips you could have a EEPROM install in the Mem cal so that it can be erased electronicly and changes made if you ever want to do so.. But the reason I bring that up is that you can have the VATS and VATS Code turned off in the program so that the Van will start.. Installing a bypass may be just as easy tho..

as for the 3.33 gears... I am very tempted to tell you to steer clear... with that Boosted motor I would go 3.06 Max... The 3.33's will cause that engine to rev quick... You are better staying with the 2.97's... The engines are rated for 260 Ft Lbs... But we have seen 280 pretty easily.. The van will get around fast with 2.97's... 3.33's will be tire smoke all of the time with that Torquer 3800 SC you have... IIRC the engine you have is rated 260 Ft Lbs at 2600-2800...

I installed the SC trans in the van, but I did go with 3.33 gears and am considering going back to 3.06 gears.. The 3.33 throws you to 6000 Rpms fast..( In your case you should have a 5000 or 5200 forced shift )..

I did a little more work on the van.. we found fueling to be way off... So we added a bit across the board... Then we noticed the MAF seemed to be a little off kilter... I replaced it with a newer MAF today with a newer Throttle Body to use that MAF.. Van runs better overall and the fuel trims are a good bit closer... Its more fun to drive now, really feels like it has a cam in it...lol

Have a little more fuel tuning and then we can add a few degrees of timing...LOL

I think you are going to have as much fun as me..:D

SCREECH
10-28-2009, 08:33 AM
...you can have the VATS and VATS Code turned off in the program so that the Van will start.. Installing a bypass may be just as easy tho..
I've seen the forums full of ppl asking about how to disable their VATS because their decoder module failed, or because of a situation like mine - an engine swap into a vehicle that doesn't have VATS, using a PCM that's equipped with it. However, I had decided how to deal with "challenges" such as this when I was initially researching the project, and that method is to run the Park Avenue's ECM in it's completely stock form, at least initially, VATS and all. To that end I harvested the decoder module with wiring pigtails from under the dash, and the ignition tumbler from the steering column of the Park Ave. The van will be equipped with the VATS system, and I will tout it to my insurance company that I added an anti-theft device and just may get a bit of a discount on my rate. :cheers:


with that Boosted motor I would go 3.06 Max... The 3.33's will cause that engine to rev quick... You are better staying with the 2.97's... The engines are rated for 260 Ft Lbs... But we have seen 280 pretty easily.. The van will get around fast with 2.97's... 3.33's will be tire smoke all of the time with that Torquer 3800 SC you have... IIRC the engine you have is rated 260 Ft Lbs at 2600-2800...
It would appear that you are correct about the torque rating. According to what I've found online, the '92/'93 L67 engines were rated for 205HP and 260TQ, with the revisions made in '94 good for 225HP and 275TQ. The van had 3.06 gears in it's previous transmissions with the L27, making 170HP/225TQ. So I am quite confident that it will seem quite peppy with the new engine/trans combo, even with the numerically lower gearing. :D


...In your case you should have a 5000 or 5200 forced shift...
I'll eventually get set up to program the PCM myself, but I currently have neither the equipment, nor the experience. I would prefer the EEPROM method that you mentioned in your previous post. Do you use this method yourself so as to be able to recommend a parts list and/or software package?


I think you are going to have as much fun as me..:D
Here's to hopin'! :cheers:

Jr's3800
10-28-2009, 12:53 PM
I think a lot of people tuning the GM OBD1 use Tuner Cat iirc... There are packages you can by for the system iirc.. You would have to buy a chip reader as well... We did this method at first with the van, a friend had the tuner that would write the 94-95 Chips... we got the van to run and drive off the original PCM.. But we needed the ability to tune on the fly..

So my next set was to go to OBD2, in my case we used a 1997 3800 PCM from an olds LS and flashed it with the Pontiac bin file... we did this due to tuneability and better overall control along with a lower speed TCC Lock.. I hit TCC lock at 28 Mph with low load... I went on vacation, my friend told me to leave the van with him.. He calls me and tells me " Hey listen to this... Vroom Vroom Vroom..... Check engine light came on earlier Don, But I have to delete that code as its unused by this van" .... Nice to have good friends.. He made it look soo easy.. He also has an HP Tuner.. Another good thing about having OBD2 is that with the mods I can tune for them... an example is the injector balance test, you can see what all of the injectors are doing, then go back in and balance the injectors across the board..

I will be installing a ZZP PLOG( Performance exhaust manifold for the front ) and when i do this we will need to do an injector skew of 2% to the front.. So for me the OBD2 was for overall control... as well I can use an Areoforce Scan gauge or a Scan Gauge on it being its 96+ OBD2.. so for me I had no reason not to..

SexySilhouette
04-18-2010, 04:05 AM
I think I just found a donor. I wanted to ask again, what axles to use? This is a 1994 PA Ultra engine and trans gfoing in a 1995 Silhouette.

Duke George V
04-18-2010, 05:47 AM
I think you should be able to use your stock axles. Don't quote me on that though.

Jr's3800
04-18-2010, 05:20 PM
You should be able to use the stock axles... I used the 3.33 Diff and retained my stock axles with no issues... I have ordered and replaced the axles on mine with the parts for the 3.06 3800 van...

So it should work for you with the stock axles..

turbokinetic
04-18-2010, 06:20 PM
Don - do you know if the 4T65E (not the HD version) and the 440T4 final drive carriers are interchangable?

Thanks,
David

Jr's3800
04-18-2010, 06:49 PM
David I am not 100% certain... On some of the older 4T60-E's they used the newer parts... I believe that I could use a 65-E diff in it with no issues... The next time I rebuild a 4T60-E I am going to find out for certain... I have several 4T60E diffs and have a 3.29 and 3.05 65E diffs...

The 440 is really really close to the 60E and a lot of parts can cross between them..

Please forgive as its been a long while... But you are talking about the ring gear of sorts correct? If you are there is one problem, and the problem is that GM changed the pitch several times and at one point had changed the direction of the pitch... So the 60E can have the same parts as the 440 and or be different depending on year..

Again I am not sure if they are interchangeable, but I suspect that they may very well be...

I have a 96 Trans here, its a 4T60E HD... It has the 3.29 diff... We found it funny that it was identical in every way to the 65E 3.29... Every number on both diffs were the same... The diff covers were the same... The gears were the same... So it is possible that that could work for you David.. You might be the first person to tell us for sure..

bluefever
07-29-2010, 03:52 PM
how's this project going?I don't see any recent posts from screech

SCREECH
07-30-2010, 03:35 AM
Ya, been crazy busy lately, sorry. I've been driving the van as my daily since January, and I've only had a few problems to work out. The wires for the VATS ign cylinder breaking in the column (cause I just ground out the column and still didn't have the proper amount of room for the wires running down the cylinder bore, gotta change the column's upper bowl for one that is proper for VATS. The underhood temps were higher than expected as the van's smaller engine bay and cowl-over-engine design seemed to plague the ignition module with malfunction. I've changed from a 195 thermostat to a 180 unit and haven't had any further issues in this regard thus far. Lastly the lower rad hose seems to be far too close to the AC pulley and has contacted it. That could have been due to a failed strut mount, but I've changed the van's original strut mount for a '96 Ciera's firmer mount. I will keep an eye on it.

When I get more time I'll post some of the tons of pics and details I've collected during the journey. :)

turbokinetic
07-30-2010, 08:18 PM
.....The underhood temps were higher than expected as the van's smaller engine bay and cowl-over-engine design seemed to plague the ignition module with malfunction.....

BEEN THERE! I can attest to the effects of heat on the ignition module. I fought a stalling and backfiring issue with my 3.8SFI Turbo that was heat related. I had installed a brand-new ignition module because that part was missing when I got the engine. When I was in moderate stop/go traffic the car would stall and usually re-start. It would backfire LOUD sometimes when it was trying to stall, or when trying to crank up. Never would do it consistently enough to troubleshoot it without guessing.

To make a long story short, it was a chinese-made module which was not built to the same standards as the original. The module would fail intermittently when hot. The part was sold as a "Standard Motor Products" module. The packaging did not show country of origin but the module had a china sticker. I had asked for the "best module you got" from this store.

After replacing all the sensors, and swapping out an ECM, chip program, coil pack, and going over the wiring - I swapped in another used module. The problem went away. Got another of the chinese ones from a different store, and the problem came back next time we had a hot spell. Liked to have got run over that time because it died in traffic.

Finally I found Advance Auto sells a "Borg Warner BWD" module that is NOT chinese (was actually made in USA) and that has withstood 100°F and hotter weather, with turbo system, without ANY hiccups. And the engine has more power. I didn't realize it was breaking up under boost at high RPM with the old one!

Anyway my point to YOU is - someone could have previously put in a chinese one. Since you bought that engine with an unknown history, I would highly recommend you buy an American-built module for preventative (and safety) reasons.

Later,
David

SCREECH
08-01-2010, 08:42 PM
David, you're right that when I bought the engine I didn't know the history behind the ignition module, whether it was ever swapped out or not. However, I DID get a second module from the guy I bought the Park Avenue from, new in the box...a Standard Motor Products red box. :) I tried that one and had issues within days of installing it. I didn't look for a China sticker, but I will next time I'm out in the garage after reading your previous post. I currently am running with either the module that was in my van on the NA 3800 or the module that was on the SC 3800 when I got it...can't remember now. :( Regardless, not one of the modules I have went problem-free for long. But since swapping to the 180 thermostat (which the parts guy recommended against because he told me the computer would be in "choke mode" all the time, sucking way more gas - not true), I haven't had a single issue, and I've been in stop and go traffic in quite hot weather. I was going to take the van on the 1500 mile trip to Virginia I just got back on, which would have been a GREAT test, but there were other things that I didn't get done on it in time, so we took my wife's Ciera. Regardless, there's still a couple months of summer-like weather left, so I'll see how it does.

I'm still toying with the idea of putting an active exhaust system in the engine bay using a decommissioned rad fan mounted above the engine (there's a LOT of room between the engine and the cowl on this van) to blow UPWARDS into a manifold with pipes/tubes exiting behind the front wheels to exhaust the engine bay. No time for that now, though. If it ever happens, you'll hear about it here first! :)

turbokinetic
08-01-2010, 09:05 PM
Awesome idea to have the exhaust fan in the engine bay! Thankfully mine has been great since the new module was installed.


....the 180 thermostat (which the parts guy recommended against because he told me the computer would be in "choke mode" all the time, sucking way more gas.....

AMAZING this person is in the parts business. I would think a touch more education would be mandatory before selling parts. Lol!!!

David

SCREECH
12-24-2010, 02:25 AM
UPDATE! (http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?4064-Death-Of-An-L67-Trans-Sport&p=47343)