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philbert
08-13-2010, 04:05 PM
New to the forum here, so please be nice!

Van in question is a '95 APV with the 3.8 and 4t60-E transmission. The transmission bit the dust so I'm in the process of swapping in another one. I had found a freshly rebuilt from a '95 Olds Silhouette but the guy sold it out from under me. I'm now in the hunt for another one. All I've been able to locate are higher mileage used ones so I don't want to find myself in the same situation again in a short period of time. Rebuilding the current one is not in the budget either.

Am I locked into only using the "correct" interchange? That being the '94-95 Olds/Pontiac/Chevy van transmission? GM used the 4T60-E in so many other applications. I am hoping I can find a lower mileage tranny from another application that would also work fine.

Thanks!

86euro
08-13-2010, 11:36 PM
Yes, I think you need the correct one for a direct swap. When the tranny died on my mother's '95, I bought a used one that the junkyard said was "correct". After installation, I found out the tranny was a different year or something and it would only work in a couple gears because of it. It would have worked if several parts were transferred from the original tranny, but I opted to find the correct one.

Duke George V
08-14-2010, 01:00 AM
Yeah, it basically has to be from a 94-95 van. I think it's because the PCMs are unique for those model years

philbert
08-14-2010, 02:58 AM
Even if the chips were swapped too huh?

86Euro, what parts would have made the non-interchange work properly?

86euro
08-14-2010, 03:44 AM
I don't remember exactly. I think it was the internal solenoids and wiring harness, maybe something else too.

philbert
08-15-2010, 01:22 AM
I know the interchange list can be overly specific at times where parts have to be EXACT matches. As an example, I'm very much into the old generation Saabs (pre-GM). If I need a transmission for a car and look at the interchange, it will show I can only use maybe 1-2 years worth of transmissions. However, I can actually use 25 years worth. While there may be slight internal difference such as gear ratio or inner drivers or bearings, they are perfectly usable for a swap. The reason for my original question was based on that premise....if another vehicle could be used as a donor where the only differences may be gear ratio or internal bearing or something unimportant in the grand scheme of things. (I do realize the computer in the van is more important than my Saab example)

Duke George V
08-15-2010, 01:28 AM
We're not saying the transmission has to be for a '94-95 van just to be pedantic. '94 and '95 are unique in that they have programming that other years don't. Those years were "transitional" for the computers, in that they have qualities of both the older OBD1 protocols and the then-upcoming OBD2. They're notoriously difficult to reprogram. If it were older or newer, it wouldn't be a problem—use whatever year or final drive ratio you want and just reprogram the PCM.

turbokinetic
08-15-2010, 02:04 AM
To work 100% properly with original programming; you need to have the same type internal wiring harness, same type PRNDL switch (goes on the shaft below the shift cable lever), same chain ratio, and same final drive ratio.

The PRNDL switch is very easy to swap.
The internal harness and switches are easy to swap.
The final drive is easy to swap.
The torque converter is very easy to swap.
The chain requires a complete teardown to swap.

The wiring harness and switches are more or less year-model specific. If you get a transmission from any 94-95 model application it is 99% likely to have the correct internal wiring.

If the ratios are not what the PCM expects, it will probably work for a little while, then the check engine light will come on. After that it will start and stay in third gear until the system is reset.

Hope this helps. I've done alot of transmission work!
Later,
David

SexySilhouette
08-15-2010, 02:38 AM
Lumina van 94-95 a.t.; 4t60e

silhouette 94 a.t.; 4t60e

silhouette 95 a.t.

Trans sport 94-95 a.t.; 4t60e

Jr's3800
08-15-2010, 05:01 PM
This is going to get interesting to answer...

You are not locked into a 94-95 Trans... The 3.06 Ratio ( FW2 ) 4T60E was produced through the 1997 Model year... For 1997 the H bodies still used the 4T60E unless Supercharged..

IIRC 96-97 3.06 should actually be plug and play for you, but there may be a possibility that you may need to swap out the internal Harness... Only issue you would have with a 96-97 Trans is that the reluctor on the Diff for the VSS is a 30 count where the 94-95 is a 31 count... This will actually leave you think you doing 60 MPH when you are really doing 62-63

As for the Park Safety switch, you will simply install your current one if you use a newer trans...

I know for sure that 96-97 4T60E's used a Carbon clutch, not sure about 94-95... The good thing is that you can use a newer trans and torque converter both will function fine with the PWM Strategy of the 94-95 Vans..


What you see here is a 1997 3.06 Trans, being that the trans was newer then the car( 1993 Buick LeSabre ) I had to use the 93 internal wiring harness as they were wires differently and had no Temp sensor, I also had to install the 93 Park Switch...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Jr3800/LeSabre%20Forum/1993LesabreTrans017.jpg

You could use a 91-93 3.06 Trans, but I recommend that you use the newer unit if at all possible as the 96-97 had some decent updates...

I would get into swapping diffs to make everything work but for the 60E GM changed the gear Pitch too many times in a short span...

On a Small note I rebuilt my 4T60E over 2 years ago, roughly 20-25k on the rebuild... What I found was a bad reverse reaction( almost stripped ), cooked clutch packs, worn 4th input hub assembly, some of the steels were blue as well as a galled pump... Come to find out it was an overall poor rebuild... I don't know everything about theses transmissions but its amazing what you can learn by rebuilding a couple...lol

If you have any more questions please feel free to ask..

turbokinetic
08-15-2010, 05:48 PM
This is going to get interesting to answer..

Thanks for adding to this - you have more info on the new-ish transmissions than I do!

David

turbokinetic
08-15-2010, 05:50 PM
Please Delete

Click "EDIT" then when the editor box opens, there is a DELETE option at the bottom near the "POST" "ADVANCED" and "CANCEL" buttons.

Jr's3800
08-15-2010, 06:01 PM
That worked... Thanks David...

On my 4T60E rebuild I used a battery of odd parts... I used a Complete 96 Valve Body/Pump as the original was a mess of scars... The Pump was the main mode of failure that took everything else with it... I used some other internal parts from the newer style trans as well.. Its neat what you can mix and match on these transmissions and have them function 100%, and the older units can be upgraded with the newer parts...

I need to build one more Trans and then toss the other case as its cracked...

But for the OP, I would look for a 3.06 trans from 94-97...

And if you were to pull that trans would you be willing to sell the 3.06 Diff?

mechanizeddeath
08-16-2010, 03:07 AM
lol... I'm so used to the traditional "bell" shape of a longitudinal mount that at first I was confused as to what you were showing there. Go ahead and laugh at me, I did when I realized it was a FWD transmission. :D

Only thing I can add to this is that these "non-exact" swaps are completely possible, sometimes even from completely different makes. I had an older Subaru with the 4EAT transmission that needed replacing, and apparently that transmission could be sourced from the much more common Nissan Pathfinder, though it wasn't a drop in replacement. Even a few Ford vehicles used a unit based on the original design, but I never pursued that option enough to figure out how big the differences were. Anyway., it's all about knowing what your options are.

philbert
08-16-2010, 03:51 AM
Thanks guys, this is a world of information and I'm attempting to digest it.

Jr., you're saying I might be able to plug and play a '96-97 trans, but the only issue may be in the speedometer being off? Is there any way to verify that? Worst case the internal harness would need to be swapped? Not to sound like a complete moron (I'm in actuality only a partial moron), how difficult is that? What about the issue that Turbokinetic brought up about the PCM not recognizing the "wrong" transmission properly?

turbokinetic
08-16-2010, 12:39 PM
Thanks guys, this is a world of information and I'm attempting to digest it.

Jr., you're saying I might be able to plug and play a '96-97 trans, but the only issue may be in the speedometer being off? Is there any way to verify that? Worst case the internal harness would need to be swapped? Not to sound like a complete moron (I'm in actuality only a partial moron), how difficult is that? What about the issue that Turbokinetic brought up about the PCM not recognizing the "wrong" transmission properly?

The PCM tells the transmission what gear to operate in. The PCM compares the engine speed and wheel speed and calculates the actual gear ratio the transmission is creating. The PCM compares the actual ratio measured by the sensors, to the EXPECTED ratio for the commanded gear. If the ACTUAL gear is not the COMMANDED gear, the PCM will flag a fault that the transmission is not operating properly. If you change the gearing (chain or final drive) the PCM's "expected" gear ratios will not match up with the transmission's performance. Therefore you will get a fault even though there is nothing actually wrong.

The chip can be reprogrammed to make customized combinations if you have the correct parameters for the transmission you plan to use.

David

Jr's3800
08-16-2010, 03:45 PM
Thanks guys, this is a world of information and I'm attempting to digest it.

Jr., you're saying I might be able to plug and play a '96-97 trans, but the only issue may be in the speedometer being off?

Yes the speedo will be off by a couple MPH higher up on the scale.. An example would be at 10 Mph you may only be 0.1 off... And at 60 you may be 2.0 off.. Not 100% correct for numbers but there will be a slight variation at speed..

Is there any way to verify that?

No need to verify, I promise you if you use a 96-97 4T60E you will be a hair off


Worst case the internal harness would need to be swapped? Not to sound like a complete moron (I'm in actuality only a partial moron), how difficult is that?

Its not that difficult at all, you will need a side pan gasket kit for the trans you are going to use, and then you will remove that harness and install the one from your van, I do not think this will be needed tho as the 94-97 Bonneville, Buick LeSabre, Olds 88, and 94-95 U bodies have the transmissions wired 100% the same..



What about the issue that Turbokinetic brought up about the PCM not recognizing the "wrong" transmission properly?

If you had a newer car this would be a problem as the PCM's got quite a bit smarter... The 94-95 PCM is a little bit on the dumber side and is simply looking at Slip numbers when lock up is commanded, if you stick with a 3.06 ratio you will be fine... An example would be you could go to a 2.97 gear ratio and not have any real issues, other than a shift thats slightly earlier due to the taller gears, but the PCM would not have any issues with this... If you went to a 3.33 ratio then the PCM will see an issue as it will think you have slip when you really don't and may at that point set a code..

Keep asking questions, I want you to know everything you can know before you walk into this..

philbert
08-16-2010, 04:17 PM
Thanks again guys...

I should have been more exact in my wording about "any way to verify"...I didn't mean to verify the speedo will be off, that I understood would be reality. I meant "is there a way to verify I can plug and play the 96-97 trans and only have the speedo being off by a few mph?"

I also assumed the PCM would not necessarily recognize the tranny properly, if the gear ratios are different. It may shift a bit late or a bit early, right? I'm not sure if I'm getting conflicting advice now....will I be ok with the '96-97 trans without having the chip reprogrammed or not? If I am going to have an issue with the PCM, could I just swap the chip from the donor?

turbokinetic
08-16-2010, 04:31 PM
Thanks again guys...

I should have been more exact in my wording about "any way to verify"...I didn't mean to verify the speedo will be off, that I understood would be reality. I meant "is there a way to verify I can plug and play the 96-97 trans and only have the speedo being off by a few mph?"

I also assumed the PCM would not necessarily recognize the tranny properly, if the gear ratios are different. It may shift a bit late or a bit early, right? I'm not sure if I'm getting conflicting advice now....will I be ok with the '96-97 trans without having the chip reprogrammed or not? If I am going to have an issue with the PCM, could I just swap the chip from the donor?

The speedometer will not be affected. The transmission output speed sensor (that is what signals the speedometer) is reading off the final drive carrier. That turns at the axle speed, regardless of ratio.

See below. In the lower left corner of the picture there is a light silver "toothed wheel" that the speed sensor reads from. That is part of the housing that turns with the axle. The small end of the final drive (bearing race) that points straight into the lower left corner of the picture is where the CV axle goes into the transmission.

http://68.209.87.173/84_Century/Transmission_4T65EHD/modify/LSFD_1.jpg

David

turbokinetic
08-16-2010, 04:40 PM
The problem you may have is, if the PCM detects an error, it considers the that it has lost control of the transmission. For safety, the transmission may be held in third gear to prevent further damage.

The van's chip is special for the van application. The safest thing to do would be to copy and paste the transmission constants from the chip from the donor car into your van chip. That would minimize the chance of side effects.

If you can give me the BCC code off your chip, I can look at it and tell you if I can change the program without actually seeing the van.

Take care!
David

philbert
08-16-2010, 04:51 PM
We're not going to have a food fight, are we? One says the speedo will be off a tad, one says it won't! *S*

I think I got it then from the explanation. The speed sensor is really nothing more than an electrical pick up that takes a reading from the "toothed wheel". If it's taking the reading from axle speed, it matters not a whit, because, well, it's just reading the axle speed electronically. Quite unlike the "old days" of matching gears to the speedo.

So....if the internal wiring is the same and the speedo is not a problem, and I assume the original axles will fit these other transmissions/the cradles mounts are the same/the bolting is the same, am I then left with the only issue being the shift points, i.e. the PCM programming? If that's true, then will I be ok with the original PCM or will I have to have it reprogrammed or can I just swap chips with the donor? I can't imagine fuel mapping of the chips will be that dissimilar...

turbokinetic
08-16-2010, 04:59 PM
If you get a trans from a 96 or newer, that donor vehicle will not have a chip that can be used in your PCM because the 96 and newer were FLASH programmable. If it has one, get the chip from the donor car, and try both. Whichever works best - use it! :)

If you get the BCC code and post that, I can tell you for sure what can be done to the chip.

philbert
08-16-2010, 05:09 PM
On the outside cover of the chip it says this:

BLSD
1620
8027

The PCM itself is this:

Serv No 16183247 BLSD
86BLSDM75171GSYE *

turbokinetic
08-16-2010, 05:31 PM
On the outside cover of the chip it says this:

BLSD
1620
8027

The PCM itself is this:

Serv No 16183247 BLSD
86BLSDM75171GSYE *

Alright! I just looked on the GM-ECM site and didn't see the program from that chip posted there. I sent a message and some of the members will probably have the stock program they will e-mail to me. With that I can view the settings and see what can be done. If the transmission failure detection function can be turned OFF, then you would have everything just like before but the shifting points would be a little different.

David

philbert
08-16-2010, 05:45 PM
And if there is no transmission failure detection function?

turbokinetic
08-16-2010, 06:12 PM
And if there is no transmission failure detection function?

If you turn off the errors for invalid gear ratios, everything will run fine. If the transmission develops a problem, you will not get a Check Engine light and will not have a code about it.

My car has a swapped-in trans and transmission ECU without any diagnostics enabled. It doesn't affect it any.

David

Jr's3800
08-16-2010, 06:22 PM
I hope I am not confusing you...

What I am getting at is the 94-95 3.06 for the vans and the C & H bodies all used a 31 tooth reluctor, for these cars and vans the only purpose for the reluctor is for the Vehicle Speed Sensor, so there will be 31 pulses per full revolution of the wheel

The 96-97 will have a 30 tooth reluctor, this is the reason why you will be a tad off as your chip will be doing its math at 31 pulses not 30... The reality is that this will not be a problem other than your speedo reading a couple MPH low at interstate speeds.. I had no issues running a 30 tooth reluctor on my 95 Trans Sport, and I went to a heavier gear ratio 2.97 as opposed to the stock 3.06.. I drove 1 year with no issues, not even a single Trans related code..

If you could have a chip burned that corrected for the VSS Reluctor you would be 100% correct as opposed to 99%, but for your application its not needed..


On a side note, when I went to my Series III 3800 in my van I decided to go to the 3.33 gear ratio, I used a stock 3.06 Bonneville chip and never threw any transmission codes... Only thing we did was we had to turn off the security in the chips program as the car used the passkey system with fuel enable.. This was the only thing we did...

Its the newer cars( 96 + ) that will have a hissy fit with a differing gear ratio, When we went to the 97 PCM in my van we had to get the Pulses and pulse counts correct for the PCM to be happy as I used the 3.33 ratio as opposed to the Bin Files 3.06... The older generation of GM PCM's aren't too picky.. You should be able to swap with no worries..

This is the first Transmissions we installed in the van after we did the rebuild on it... This was a Buick Rivera Supercharged Trans, and had the 2.93 Gear ratio... we ran this one for several months and later found a leak that turned out to be a hairline fracture in the case.. 2.93 Ratio with a 30 count Reluctor...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Jr3800/1995%20Pontiac%20Transport/DSC02723.jpg

This is the vans original trans, I choose to rebuild it after we found the crack on the first one.. On this one I used the 3.33 Diff and changed the drive an driven gears to make it an Overall 2.97 ratio, I ran this trans with 0 issues as well..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Jr3800/THM%204T60-E/4T60-EVanOriginal019.jpg

Both of those transmissions were under the control of the BLSD Chip with the original motor.... Never had any issues..

philbert
08-16-2010, 06:46 PM
ok guys...in your highly exalted opinion....what transmissions can I then use...completely plug and play.

Jr's3800
08-16-2010, 07:02 PM
I can Promise you that a 3.06 FW2 from a Bonneville, LeSabre, Olds 88/LSS and or any of the U Body 3800 vans 94-95.... These will be 100% Plug & Play with no speedo errors..

the 96-97 Bonneville, LeSabre, Olds 88 with the 3.06 FW2 are all also useable, but you will have the slight variation with the speedo due to the reluctor count making it in my eyes 99% perfect for your application...

If you can find any of these transmissions with low miles and for a good price I would run the best one you can get... The 96-97 will not require you to change out the internal harness, but no matter what trans you get, while you have it on the ground I would recommend changing out the side pan gasket just to kill off any possible future leaks..

Also when and if you find a good trans, I do recommend a Trans cooler for it, the number one failure for these is due to overheating.... Some of the U bodies had Dual Heat Exchangers in the radiator for the trans, would you happen to know if yours does?

We installed the 97 trans in my buddies 93 LeSabre, only change was the side pan gasket and the internal harness to make it compatible with his 93... Its been 1 year and 15,000 miles with no issues at all..

Just curious... Where are you located? If you were near the Space coast we could lend you a hand..

philbert
08-16-2010, 07:27 PM
Not sure how to tell if I have a dual heat exchanger in the radiator.

This trans has been on the way out for a while. It developed the "shudder" like you're driving over those bumps in the road and then finally one day it just would not shift out of first. Reverse slipped horribly. But for 235,000 or so miles, it's lived a good full life and I'm not complaining. Not like anyone would listen anyway....

So, just to be crystal clear....any '94-95 3.06 Bonneville, LeSabre, or Olds 88/LSS will be a no problem, just drop it in, and I'll be on my merry way donor? Same for the '96-97 with maybe a slight speedo error or shift points that aren't going to be weird?

I'm in Minnesota. Land of misquitoes, taxes, lutefisk, and strange politicians.

Jr's3800
08-16-2010, 07:37 PM
You have the gist of it... Yes 94-95 and be on your merry way... 96-97 will be a hair off, it'll be so small you won't notice... I have video of my van someplace with the 2.97 gears... Never edited it tho..lol

Only thing I loved about the 2.97 gears is that I was doing 22 mixed and 28 hwy...

Do your research and see what you can find, let us know what your looking at... as well if you get the numbers off the Trans Tag we can decode the trans to know exactly what the trans was for and a few other details about it... Only way you'll get the trans tag info is if the trans is out already( Some junk yards pull them and store them..) or crawl under the said vehicle and get the numbers..

But when you go to deal with the Yards they will tell you 94-95 Only which is not the case... Make sure they look for Option FW2 3.06... I have seen people end up with the wrong trans...

I work nights, so if you have any more questions I will most likely answer early in the morning or late tomorrow..

philbert
08-17-2010, 05:41 PM
So far here are the choices I've found (no tag info, sorry):

'96 Bonneville, 130,000 miles, $200.00
'95LeSabre, awaiting mileage, $150.00
'94 Old 88, 200,000 miles, $150.00
'95 Silhouette, awaiting mileage, entire van $300.00, said tranny needs a "solenoid"
'96 Bonneville, 140,000, $250.00

turbokinetic
08-17-2010, 06:02 PM
So far here are the choices I've found (no tag info, sorry):

'96 Bonneville, 130,000 miles, $200.00
'95LeSabre, awaiting mileage, $150.00
'94 Old 88, 200,000 miles, $150.00
'95 Silhouette, awaiting mileage, entire van $300.00, said tranny needs a "solenoid"
'96 Bonneville, 140,000, $250.00

If I were you, I would go with the 94-95 vintage units for best compatibility. Avoid the "solenoid issue" because that could actually be any of a multitude of problems.

David

philbert
08-17-2010, 08:28 PM
This is what the owner of the Silhouette van said about the "solenoid"....

"When driving at first the shifting to overdrive
is fine, but later it won't do the shift unless the car is re started,
then it will work again. This appears to be a fairly common problem on GM
cars, but doesn't affect the operation of the transmission and just needs
replacing. This solenoid is evidently hard to get at located on top of
transmission so I didn't get it replaced."

At the moment, depending on the amount of miles, I am leaning towards the '95 LeSabre transmission. It was a running car and was totaled when hit in the rear. Of course I have to take the entire car (or what is now left of it) and remove the tranny myself. Oh joy....

The owner of the '94 Olds will pull the tranny for me...but the mileage scares me.

turbokinetic
08-17-2010, 09:13 PM
The solenoids are all VERY EASY to get to with the transmission out of the car.

This is an example of the solenoids. Your transmission will be different. This is a 4T65E wheres yours is a 4T60E. The shift coils A and B are what makes the transmission shift out from 1,2,3,4. The other coils will be different for yours. On this transmission, there's a clip that holds the shift A and B coils into the valve body.

http://68.209.87.173/84_Century/Transmission_4T65EHD/VB_components.jpg

Maybe Don (JR's3800) can elaborate on the 4T60E solenoids.

My point is that, with the transmission sitting on the bench, the solenoids are fully accessible.

David

Jr's3800
08-17-2010, 11:05 PM
I agree with David 100%... Stay away from the so called solenoid issue... This is not a Solenoid issue, its the TCC bore in the valve body causing issues... The PCM commands the TCC on and sees too much slip then locks out the TCC... The TCC will function again on restart but the same problem will reappear.... So do steer clear of that transmission...

The 95 LeSabre trans will depend on mileage... But would be a 100% perfect replacement..

the 94 Olds 88 Trans.... Way too many miles and near the end of its service life..

Both of the 96 Bonneville are of interest....


Just be really careful... When these units get up there in mileage they are a crap shoot as to weather or not they are good.. I like to be able to pull the dip stick and look at the color as well as the smell of the fluid..

I currently have 185,000 on my 95 Bonneville 4T60E... Still shifts great and I run it to 6100( Trans pump can't really handle much more than this on a 60E )... I have beat the tar out of this transmission... But I always kept the fluid and filter changed as well as a Large Cooler... I actually have a 28,000 GVWR cooler on it, the fluid never get dark.. Keeping them cool does a lot towards longevity... For these transmissions anything over 200F is cooking, 160F is optimum.... 230F is frying, 260 is limp home mode and close to melt down...

Would be nice if you were closer... We could have done a rebuild, or you could have had my SRTA 4T60E for cheap..

Jr's3800
08-17-2010, 11:13 PM
David, I almost forgot...

The 4T60E is a bit more simplified than the 4T65E..

The 60E does not use the EPC( Electronic Pressure Control) some like to call this the PCS or Pressure control solenoid... It also does not use the Input Speed Sensor... As well the 60E has no Pressure Switch Plate..

The 60E has the A & B Shift Solenoids, TCC Solenoid, TCC PWM Apply Solenoid and Temp Sensor.. The Line pressure in the 60E was still controlled but the Vac Modulator much in the same way the THM440-T4( 4T60 ) was controlled...

philbert
08-19-2010, 04:20 PM
At this point in time, I may be zeroing in on the '95 LeSabre. It may have been replaced not long ago so the mileage is way less than the car. Once that's verified, I may be on my merry way.

Any luck decoding the chip in case I have to have the tranny trouble turned off?

The LeSabre was a driver that had been rear ended with the insurance company totaling it out. A guy bought it for the front end clip as he hit a deer with his. Most everything has been removed on the front end so removing the cradle should be fairly easy and quick.

turbokinetic
08-19-2010, 04:47 PM
At this point in time, I may be zeroing in on the '95 LeSabre. It may have been replaced not long ago so the mileage is way less than the car. Once that's verified, I may be on my merry way.

Any luck decoding the chip in case I have to have the tranny trouble turned off?

The LeSabre was a driver that had been rear ended with the insurance company totaling it out. A guy bought it for the front end clip as he hit a deer with his. Most everything has been removed on the front end so removing the cradle should be fairly easy and quick.

No one has a copy of this chip! That is somewhat expected since it was never a "performance" vehicle! That doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I would have to read your original chip to get the program. This is really best anyway - because you know for sure this program is correct for your van.

There are 2 different definitions this could use. Does it have exposed intake tract runners (L27) ; or a big plastic cover that says "3800 series II" (L36)?

Let me know.
David

philbert
08-19-2010, 06:11 PM
Nope, no plastic cover.

So I shouldn't worry about the chip?...just install the donor's transmission and away I go? Life will be good? My wife will be happy? World peace will occur?

turbokinetic
08-19-2010, 06:17 PM
Nope, no plastic cover.

So I shouldn't worry about the chip?...just install the donor's transmission and away I go? Life will be good? My wife will be happy? World peace will occur?

What plastic cover?

CamoDeafie
08-19-2010, 06:34 PM
i think hes saying no plastic cover on his engine.

turbokinetic
08-19-2010, 06:35 PM
I would install the donor transmission and test it. If it acts up the chip can be reprogrammed, if not - then you are on your way! I'm still waiting on the tuning program author to tell me what programming definition it takes!

Jr's3800
08-21-2010, 12:34 PM
if he gets the trans from the 95 LeSabre there will be no issues at all... The 1995 U body and the 1995 LeSabre both used the same exact 3800 L27 Tuned Port Injection..

Now the only question is what gear ratio does the LeSabre have? it will either be 2.84 or 3.06, and will only have 3.06 if its the Grand Touring package equipped LeSabre...

94 Tran tag would be, 4WAW, 4PFW( C - H Body )

95 Trans Tag would be, 5BXW, 5BKW

If its the wrong Ratio, you should be able to swap the 3.06 Diff into it, if its year correct..

The BLSD chip should have 0 issues with his trans, as long as its a 3.06.. The 94-95 Trans for both the series I and II are identical in every way

turbokinetic
08-21-2010, 12:40 PM
if he gets the trans from the 95 LeSabre there will be no issues at all... The 1995 U body and the 1995 LeSabre both used the same exact 3800 L27 Tuned Port Injection..

Now the only question is what gear ratio does the LeSabre have? it will either be 2.84 or 3.06, and will only have 3.06 if its the Grand Touring package equipped LeSabre...

94 Tran tag would be, 4WAW, 4PFW( C - H Body )

95 Trans Tag would be, 5BXW, 5BKW

If its the wrong Ratio, you should be able to swap the 3.06 Diff into it, if its year correct..

The BLSD chip should have 0 issues with his trans, as long as its a 3.06.. The 94-95 Trans for both the series I and II are identical in every way

That's what I thought, too. Did all them have the 37-33 chain ratio during that time?

David

turbokinetic
08-21-2010, 12:44 PM
I was talking to him (philbert) via e-mail and he said his trans lost all gears above first, and makes a marbles-like noise in Reverse. There was no slipping prior to this, and it happened during a steady cruising run.
(Neutralized at 45 MPG; costed to a stop, and has only first. Any attempted upshift results in neutralizing.) I don't have my books available at the time. Isn't that a "known issue" for these? Some "shell" breaking? The trans has 235,000 miles.

Jr's3800
08-21-2010, 04:10 PM
Lets see if I can answer both of those...

The 4T60E for the 94-95 years used a 35 Drive and 35 Driven with the 2.84 Diff and the 3.06 Diff... Some GM cars had a 3.33 Diff and that as well used the 35 Drive and 35 Driven...

The Trick was for the supercharged 3800, it used the 3.33 Diff but was Overdriven with the 37 Drive and 33 Driven sprockets to be an Overall 2.97.. so if the trans is a 94-95 2.84 he should be fine to swap the Diff and Diff cover...


It sound like one of two thing happened for him, either the Reverse Reaction Drum stripped or it fragged the 3rd roller sprag, hard to say for certain but the marble sound makes me think this is possible... And yes this can happen with the 60E under high mileage..

philbert
08-22-2010, 02:58 AM
Correction, it makes the marbles noise in forward for sure, don't remember reverse as the van was only driven a very short distance by me after this happened....and it's been a couple of months. Hey, I'm slow and steady, ok?

I was doing some reading and it sounds as if the reverse drum "shell" was a known issue and the replacement is hardened so it shouldn't happen again. I just wish I knew how to tear into this beast and fix it myself. It looks as if the transplant is the way to go.

So Don...the LeSabre may have a different final ratio? I really need to get the trans tag from this guy. He's been very slow in responding lately.

Jr's3800
08-22-2010, 11:42 AM
There is a really good chance that LeSabre is a 2.84( F17 ) Ratio... Its was few and far between for the LeSabre to have a 3.06, the only ones I ever saw get the 3.06 Ratio was the Grand Touring Models, these cars also had the F41 Firm Ride & Handling suspension.... Kind of like the Grandpas Grocery Getter surprise for the ricer...LOL...

Even if it did have the 2.84 you should be able to use that trans and swap your 3.06 Diff into it

If that LeSabre is a 3.06, it ill have option code FW2 on the spare tire cover... But the Tranny tag will tell all..

philbert
08-23-2010, 02:52 AM
Would I need to swap the diff if it has the 2.84 gears or would it be such a pig on the highway I wouldn't want it?

turbokinetic
08-23-2010, 02:58 AM
Would I need to swap the diff if it has the 2.84 gears or would it be such a pig on the highway I wouldn't want it?

Because the final is SO EASY to swap, I would highly recommend you swap it. The higher (numerically) the ratio, the less stress on the remainder of the transmission, too. It will last longer if you have the 3.06 ratio.

And it would be a pig on the on-ramps to the highway, too!

David

Jr's3800
08-23-2010, 04:09 PM
I agree.... Go with the 3.06... You are moving a large car.... The 3800 is a good strong motor, and has plenty of grunt.. But the 2.84 is just too heavy...

The 3.06 give better overall driveability and performance... Makes getting into traffic or merging effortless..

As well I have 185,000 On my original 3.06 4T60E... Still shifts smooth and right on time..

philbert
08-23-2010, 10:23 PM
I found a grandpa owned 1994 LeSabre with 62,000 miles on it that was rear-ended as a potential donor. He gave me the info on the tags but I can't seem to match it up with anything. Can you help?

614YMW
W13HN
4A40

Is a Buick Regal also a potential donor?

Jr's3800
08-24-2010, 05:59 PM
4YMW is a 94 Trans with a 2.84 gear ratio with a 30 tooth reluctor..

You would be able to use your torque converter and swap the 3.06 gear ratio...


And yes a Regal would be a possible Donor if the car has a 3800..

philbert
08-30-2010, 04:32 PM
The transmission I've seemed to zero in on is from a '95 Buick Regal, ID 5BLW.

What do you guys think?

turbokinetic
08-31-2010, 12:14 AM
The transmission I've seemed to zero in on is from a '95 Buick Regal, ID 5BLW.

What do you guys think?

Get that one; and install YOUR final drive into it before installing the transmission. That's my opinon! :)

David

philbert
08-31-2010, 12:53 AM
Hi David...

Why would I need to install MY final drive into it? I was under the impression this donor had the same 3.06 but again, I am a partial moron.

On another note...what determines the shift points? Is it MPH? RPM?

turbokinetic
08-31-2010, 12:57 AM
Hi David...

Why would I need to install MY final drive into it? I was under the impression this donor had the same 3.06 but again, I am a partial moron.

On another note...what determines the shift points? Is it MPH? RPM?

Not a moron!!!

I thought the donor did not have the 3.06 drive. Sorry!

The shift points are determined by MPH and throttle position. The ECM has tables in it that look at VSS speed (the MPH) on one axis, and TPS % (throttle open %) on the other. It looks up what gear to be in from those tables.

David

turbokinetic
08-31-2010, 01:04 AM
Some of the shift tables:

http://68.209.87.173/Temp/trans_const.jpg

Maybe that makes it a little clearer. As you can see, they don't allow the 3>4 shift at full throttle because of the weak 4th clutch in these.

The 4T65E will indeed make WOT 3>4 shifts. :)

David

turbokinetic
08-31-2010, 01:08 AM
The "kickdown mode" is a special, separate table for when you are near 100% throttle. In other words, it is in effect at WOT. This makes it simpler to tune. They designed the main shift tables for drivability and "feel" but the WOT table (kickdown) can be tweaked independantly to fine-tune the exact RPM where it shifts.

philbert
08-31-2010, 03:13 PM
David, like I said, I am a partial moron! I freely admit it and wear it as a badge of honor.

I am not positive I know what I'm looking at when I look at the charts for the differences in the transmissions. Based on the ID tag, what can you tell me about this possible donor and what differences should I be aware of if I use it? Based on the aforementioned moron-factor, I can see very little difference. It almost appears as if I use the donor trans and torque converter it could very well be a fully plug and play setup.

Phil

Jr's3800
08-31-2010, 10:35 PM
This is interesting...

What you have is a 1995 W Body Trans... It would have to be a Buick Regal My bet is a Regal GS... This is a 3.06 Ratio with a 31 tooth reluctor...

The only thing I do not know for sure is if this is a temp sensor or temp switch model..


Also this transmissions has a Structural Aluminum side pan,

You will be able to use this trans, but you may have to swap out the internal wiring harness... That is a trans I would go for and getting it to work should be pretty simple..

philbert
09-01-2010, 01:14 AM
This is interesting...

What you have is a 1995 W Body Trans... It would have to be a Buick Regal My bet is a Regal GS... This is a 3.06 Ratio with a 31 tooth reluctor...

The only thing I do not know for sure is if this is a temp sensor or temp switch model..


Also this transmissions has a Structural Aluminum side pan,

You will be able to use this trans, but you may have to swap out the internal wiring harness... That is a trans I would go for and getting it to work should be pretty simple..

Yup, it is from a low mileage Buick Regal, not sure if it's a GS or not.

Why is the temp sensor/temp switch important?

Is the "structural aluminum side pan" important?

I know nothing about the internal harness. I had him look and the plug was a grey round 7 pin plug just like on the van. I was pretty sure it had the 3.06 ratio, so thanks for letting me know on that! If I have to swap out the internal harness, is there anything else I'll have to do to make it work?

Jr's3800
09-06-2010, 03:20 PM
Changing out the wiring harness is very simple on these transmissions... Only thing you might need is a side pan gasket kit( pretty cheap as long as its not a GM kit )....

philbert
09-06-2010, 06:40 PM
I've been reading and yes, it looks fairly simple to change out the harness. I was also doing some research and it appears the same part number is used for the harness for both the original transmission and the donor. I guess I wonder if swapping out the harness is even necessary? Everything I've been able to find says the same pin out was used on '94-95 for sure.

So Don, as I bow down in your wisdom of all things GM related, is this going to be plug and play?

philbert
09-10-2010, 11:35 PM
The one issue I thought of is the transmission mount. I see they use completely different mounts. What is the best method to work through this?

Jr's3800
09-14-2010, 01:33 PM
Both Transmissions should have the same mounting bosses.... You should simply install your mounts and do what ever with the others...lol

philbert
03-17-2011, 04:11 PM
Hi guys...well, six months later and I'm back at it. Life gets in the way, you know how it is.....

The replacement transmission is finally in my garage ('95 Regal) and I'm ready to go at it. Which torque converter should I be using? The original van's or the Regal's?

Jr's3800
03-17-2011, 06:47 PM
Both Converters should be the same 1897 stall, and both have the same friction clutch inside... Being that the Regal trans still functioned, use that converter... The Regal Converter is compatible with your van..


If you have any other questions Please by all means Ask

philbert
04-20-2011, 12:54 PM
Status update: The engine is pulled, the transmission is removed, and the "new" transmission is installed. I KNOW there has to be an easier way to get the new transmission attached. I bet I struggled for 4 hours before it finally popped in. In order to get the transmission to clear the cradle, the engine has to sit at a slight angle as does the trans. But at that slight angle, the torque converter would continually slide off. Anyway, it finally fit and now it's just putting all the bits and pieces back on, and sliding it back under the van.

I have a low cart on wheels. I installed a couple of 4x4 on the cart and with the van raised just slightly (on jackstands) the cart fit under the engine cradle perfectly. I used a cherry picker to raise the front of the van enough to wheel the cradle assembly out from under the van. That was the easy part!

philbert
04-23-2011, 08:42 PM
NEW UPDATE:

The project is finally finished and I hope to never have to go through that again! But....the van runs, shifts, and drives as it is supposed to! And Momma (my dearest wife) is a happy camper to finally have "her" vehicle back again.

We had one small issue in her maiden voyage. About 15 minutes after she left she called. It was one of those times when you're not happy to see a particular number on the caller ID, ya know? She tells me the steering is acting like it's locked up tight, to grab my tools, and come see what's up. When I get there I see the serpentine belt has come off the pulleys. No big deal, I put it back on, have her start the van, and within a second the belt comes off again. That's when I noticed the a/c compressor looks as if it's not quite right and sure enough, the bracket is cracked. So I measured for a belt to eliminate the a/c compressor (72 1/2 or 73 inches if anyone is interested), install it, and we're back in business.

Thank you to all that have helped me in this process.

SCREECH
04-26-2011, 04:47 PM
When I was doing the 3800 supercharged swap in my van I used the chainfall that I have in the roof of my garage, and I put a couple ratchet straps around the lower rad support and lifted the van that way.

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/05.jpg

This was the second time the cradle has been out of this van while in my care - I purchased the van back in 2004 when it was in need of a transmission change. Having the right setup like this it's actually a breeze to pull the cradle out on these vehicles (or an A-body). I too use a low cart on wheels to set the subframe on and wheel it out from under the body afterwards.

One additional point I wanted to add regarding changing the transmission, and the difficulty you mentioned in getting it reconnected: I removed the engine and transmission as a pair from the cradle. Then, keeping the engine attached to the cherry picker, unbolt it from the transmission and connect it to the replacement unit before positioning the assembly back onto the cradle. The cradle is not that hard to man-handle once there's no drivetrain on it.

http://screech.ws/miscpics/92_TP_l67/10.jpg

Blueberries
05-10-2011, 07:10 AM
After installation, I found out the tranny was a different year or something and it would only work in a couple gears because of it. It would have worked if several parts were transferred from the original tranny ...

lackneramanda
11-08-2011, 03:31 AM
I know the interchange list can be overly specific at times where parts have to be EXACT matches. As an example, I'm very much into the old generation Saabs (pre-GM). If I need a transmission for a car and look at the interchange, it will show I can only use maybe 1-2 years worth of transmissions. However, I can actually use 25 years worth. While there may be slight internal difference such as gear ratio or inner drivers or bearings, they are perfectly usable for buy car parts (http://www.carparts.com/) a swap. The reason for my original question was based on that premise....if another vehicle could be used as a donor where the only differences may be gear ratio or internal bearing or something unimportant in the grand scheme of things. (I do realize the computer in the van is more important than my Saab example)

I have been looking around for the XKR-R Manual Transmission swap.
Does anyone have any more information about this? thanks in advance!