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OnkelUdo
10-30-2014, 01:04 AM
Brand new member with a lot of questions because...my loose gathering of rabble may or may not be building a 1995 Pontiac Trans Sport with the Buick 3800 into a race car for one of the various budget endurance racing series...allegedly.

So if we were engaging in such folly we would need soooo much help.

Lots of questions to follow but since I am a GM-aphobe in spite of racing a 1994 Saturn SC2 for a year and a half so all this FWD, Domestic, plastic covered stuff is still a mystery to me. I am a mid-eighties Eurotrash guy.

First question is tires. We need to run lower profile tires and there are two approaches: stick with the 15's and go to a 205/50/15 or go to 16's and a similar profile. The advantage of the 15's is the 14% change in gearing. The concern in going with the 15's is what are we likely to confuse or break things by effectively changing the gearing by 14%? Competitive tires for this theoretical race series are readily available in this size but after finding out the alternator could not correctly charge without a 10V reference from the IP regulated voltage, I would not be surprised if the tranny would go into a limp home mode with that disparityl. ABS functionality is not a consideration.

Next, when installing the cage are there dangerous fuel, brake or electrical lines in areas along the sills in the following locations that are not readily visible (welding):

Front wheel wells.
Directly behind the B-pillars (at least on a b-pillar on a normal car).
42" to the rear of the same location so approximately 8" behind the second row.

Now suspension. We have little time and less budget to do suspension upgrades but the rear sway seems obvious. Are various redneck, no budget fixes appropriate such as: cutting coils, torching coils, swapping junk yard coils from another car, etc. Keep in mind...not a street car...it has to go around corners quickly. Any weird dangers with slotting the strut mount holes to maximize camber (did it on the Saturn and other cars I have helped with but can positively destroy and Alfa Romeo Milano).

Any issue running with the ABS essentially turned off. All my research says it acts as a normal fixed proportioning valve diagonal system.

What major weaknesses in the the engine, transmission, electrical systems, etc do we need to pay special attention to if we were to want to run a U-body in endurance racing where they will be at full throttle, full brake, rinse, repeat for 14 hours over two days...allegedly. A massive tranny cooler is in the works.

Does this tranny truly hold a gear if manually shifted or can it be forced to do so? Downshifting mid-corner is really bad juju.

Thanks,

OnkelUdo

lemons bob
10-31-2014, 12:20 AM
This is BoB from over on the LeMons forum.

Since the A-Body and U-body are similiar I'll atleast pass on what we have learned from ours.

We just started running the 15's that you mentioned, the primwells lasted and worked ok at autobahn this summer. If you are going up look for the extra wide rims that were on some of the premiem larger sedans. They will easily be able to fit the 225 wide tires, if not not sure it would be worth the extra weight of the 16s.

The fuel and brake lines probably be exactly where you will want to weld. They should be very visable from the underside though so you should be able to stick something over it to protect it. The driverside should have brake and fuel lines so be extra careful, passenger will have brake and fuel vapor less dangerous but still be careful, the vapor line is easy to melt.

I've got the 2.8 so different engine, and my trans is the ancient 3 speed, but from talking to the guys who ran the century in Texas you need a transcooler. I grabbed a caddy one out of the junkyard that seems small but when draining it holds about 50,000 gallons(stupid thing leaked forever) I also have run Mobile Synthetic and the old 3 speed has run really well. I'd stick an oil cooler also but I just like to keep all my fluids cool.

Sticking the trans in 3 will not hold it there it will just stop it from wandering up to overdrive. Having driven auto in bunches of races it is really predictable and won't take long to figure out. When you brake going into a corner, or let off the gas it will shift up to the highest gear it can. As long as you keep it under 3/4 throttle through the corner it will stay in that gear, if you go full throttle it will downshift, but even if it is shifting you are not quite as powerless in the corner as if you had the clutch in.

As for suspension I would stay away from doing anything other than making sure that the shocks and struts are in good shape. Once you start doing suspension upgrades Judge phil may start have to consider putting you in B. Stock and untested you will be in c, if it runs reliably you have a chance to win C or IOE pretty easily first race.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
10-31-2014, 03:13 AM
2.8...3 speed,

FWIW...when in lockup, there is VERY MINOR heat generated. Only time a AT-Cooler is needed is when running in non-lockup.

Hence, in everyday older vehicles, a new radiator is not needed for a long time, unless driving mostly in non-lockup mode (city driving)

3.8 Engine has always been a good engine, but timing chain will have to be changed out...interference engine.

lemons bob
10-31-2014, 02:18 PM
Looking through notes again there are some 15x7 wheels out there too so if you can find them in things like some the olds 88s and its siblings you can go 225 r15 you know just to make tire choice more complicated. :)

Duke George V
10-31-2014, 04:24 PM
The cars are quite nose-heavy, vans more so, so changes to the rear suspension should be limited to making sure the shocks are in good shape. Snap oversteer is a hell of a thing.

The van is several hundred pounds heavier than the car, and has the same transmission, so an external cooler is a must. An oil cooler might not be a bad idea, since heat soak is a concern with an all-iron engine.

The transmission is electronically-controlled, but can be manually shifted. You could leave the shifter in 2 most of the time, since the final drive makes second good for an indicated 75 mph.

Running some sort of ducting to the front brakes will go a long way to keeping them functional. One good hard stop from high speed is about all they're good for before they start fading.

OnkelUdo
10-31-2014, 07:29 PM
This is BoB from over on the LeMons forum.

Since the A-Body and U-body are similiar I'll atleast pass on what we have learned from ours.

We just started running the 15's that you mentioned, the primwells lasted and worked ok at autobahn this summer. If you are going up look for the extra wide rims that were on some of the premiem larger sedans. They will easily be able to fit the 225 wide tires, if not not sure it would be worth the extra weight of the 16s.

The fuel and brake lines probably be exactly where you will want to weld. They should be very visable from the underside though so you should be able to stick something over it to protect it. The driverside should have brake and fuel lines so be extra careful, passenger will have brake and fuel vapor less dangerous but still be careful, the vapor line is easy to melt.

I've got the 2.8 so different engine, and my trans is the ancient 3 speed, but from talking to the guys who ran the century in Texas you need a transcooler. I grabbed a caddy one out of the junkyard that seems small but when draining it holds about 50,000 gallons(stupid thing leaked forever) I also have run Mobile Synthetic and the old 3 speed has run really well. I'd stick an oil cooler also but I just like to keep all my fluids cool.

Sticking the trans in 3 will not hold it there it will just stop it from wandering up to overdrive. Having driven auto in bunches of races it is really predictable and won't take long to figure out. When you brake going into a corner, or let off the gas it will shift up to the highest gear it can. As long as you keep it under 3/4 throttle through the corner it will stay in that gear, if you go full throttle it will downshift, but even if it is shifting you are not quite as powerless in the corner as if you had the clutch in.

As for suspension I would stay away from doing anything other than making sure that the shocks and struts are in good shape. Once you start doing suspension upgrades Judge phil may start have to consider putting you in B. Stock and untested you will be in c, if it runs reliably you have a chance to win C or IOE pretty easily first race.

Bob, your help is always appreciated on the "been there, done that" level.

The oil cooler is something we are not planning on currently but does the stock fuel pump have the capacity to push it without significant drop in flow?

Not too concerned about Judge Phil as he still has this vehicle on his list and I think minivans start in C until proven otherwise if we were prepping for LeMons as the first Dustbuster.

Transcoooler will either be the old condenser or one of the million available on the on HD vans and pickups that we have used as oil coolers on the Saturn. I also used a Caddy oil coller initially but managed to split one of the fittings from over torquing.

We have a 4 serviceable Rivals left from the Saturn so we plan to swap them over and buy two new ones.

I am picking up a 2005 Uplander beam axle with all attached brake hardware Monday. My teammate that you know is confident that the calipers will fit steel 15" wheels even if they have to shaved a bit.

Any idea if the assumptions I made on the ABS system are accurate...diagonal system with normal proportioning if the unit is non functional?

Let me know if you are interested in coming by for a build day. We start tomorrow with gutting, breaking fasteners free and re-torquing etc.

Thanks again,

Onkel Udo

OnkelUdo
10-31-2014, 07:37 PM
Oddly, by my estimates, once gutted the van should be within about 150#'s of a Century form the same era.

As the brakes from our year match those available in the Firebird good brake compounds are available for the front. With my experience from the Saturn I can say that outrageously expensive pads from Porterfield or Carbotech can eliminate fade and even the EBC yellows we ran change the nature of the braking completely.

To 85_Ciera...was surprised to learn that the Series I is an interference engine. What are these pushrods I keep hearing about? Are those for moving the car around with engine off? Silly GM.

lemons bob
10-31-2014, 07:50 PM
Oddly, by my estimates, once gutted the van should be within about 150#'s of a Century form the same era.

As the brakes from our year match those available in the Firebird good brake compounds are available for the front. With my experience from the Saturn I can say that outrageously expensive pads from Porterfield or Carbotech can eliminate fade and even the EBC yellows we ran change the nature of the braking completely.

To 85_Ciera...was surprised to learn that the Series I is an interference engine. What are these pushrods I keep hearing about? Are those for moving the car around with engine off? Silly GM.

Weight wise might be close but I bet the balance is even worse at being nose heavy after stripping. You'll have to eventually stick something in the back to even out the weight of the engine.

Another way to help the brakes is if you get wheels with good airflow. We recently got some alero wheels which are light and have lots of open space for heat to escape, available in 15 and 16.

I also am kind of surprised the 3.8 is an interference motor. the 60 degree ones aren't and also have the push rods, because then it gets a nice low rumble, especially after you simplify the exhaust from stock.

OnkelUdo
10-31-2014, 08:43 PM
Weight wise might be close but I bet the balance is even worse at being nose heavy after stripping. You'll have to eventually stick something in the back to even out the weight of the engine.

Another way to help the brakes is if you get wheels with good airflow. We recently got some alero wheels which are light and have lots of open space for heat to escape, available in 15 and 16.

I also am kind of surprised the 3.8 is an interference motor. the 60 degree ones aren't and also have the push rods, because then it gets a nice low rumble, especially after you simplify the exhaust from stock.

Yeah, expecting the balance to be terrible. Putting the battery where the second row, outboard passenger seat is. After that we have joked about leaving two of the seats in the third row...might just do it even of it is only 60#'s.

The little research I have done certainly supports the claim of the 3800 being an interference motor though I am not sure why. The torque is excellent but the horsepower only moderate for its displacement.

We already have a "performance exhaust" thanks to the Chicago winters. Have not assessed the end-to-end condition yet but we will be cutting the cat out and using a bypass pipe. Gotta love ODBI.

OnkelUdo
10-31-2014, 08:55 PM
The transmission is electronically-controlled, but can be manually shifted. You could leave the shifter in 2 most of the time, since the final drive makes second good for an indicated 75 mph.
Roughly 67 with the change in gearing by the much smaller diameter tires. Depending on our acceleration (not terrible ut not exciting) and cornering speeds (likely abysmal) this would mean the need for 3rd is only on the longer straights. Good to know.

lemons bob
10-31-2014, 09:10 PM
Roughly 67 with the change in gearing by the much smaller diameter tires. Depending on our acceleration (not terrible ut not exciting) and cornering speeds (likely abysmal) this would mean the need for 3rd is only on the longer straights. Good to know.

These gm v6's in lemons tend to pull pretty well. The Torqueness of the engines tend to make them perform better than most people would expect when they look at the HP. You will probably find yourself needing 3rd a few times a lap at autobahn south alone. With the 3 speed we have a good 10mph more before having to shift and we still needed to shift into 3rd gear and with the 2.8s power band it actually was just as well to let it shift into 3rd before redlining in some spots to be easier and not really lose speed since it kind of peters out powerwise towards the redline anyway.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-01-2014, 01:26 AM
I also am kind of surprised the 3.8 is an interference motor.

3.8 is an intereference engine, but I understand 3800 is not:

GM 3.8 and 3800 (http://forums.aaca.org/f169/gm-3-8-3800-a-303617.html)

Bad luck with GM 3800 motor! (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3044245/1)

babyivan
11-01-2014, 02:09 AM
3.8 is an intereference engine, but I understand 3800 is not:



Bad luck with GM 3800 motor! (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3044245/1)

HAHA, I'm a poster in that one.... pages 3 & 4! good ole BITOG

BTW, the 231 Buick engine (3.8/3800) is a great engine marred by a few flaws over the years... early on, the timing set used nylon teeth and later on, the plastic intake wreaked havoc!... pick your poison.

As far as interference.... they were ALL interference engines, regardless of generation/series!

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-01-2014, 02:22 AM
As far as interference.... they were ALL interference engines, regardless of generation/series!

Many FWD engines are, but clueless said: "I've broken the timing chain (http://forums.aaca.org/showthread.php?t=303617&p=884793&viewfull=1#post884793) on on an '89 3800, that engine was non-interferance..."

He must have been LUCKY...

babyivan
11-01-2014, 02:35 AM
Many FWD engines are, but clueless said: "I've broken the timing chain (http://forums.aaca.org/showthread.php?t=303617&p=884793&viewfull=1#post884793) on on an '89 3800, that engine was non-interferance..."

He must have been LUCKY...

Lucky is what he was.... the 231 was an interference engine from beginning till end. There have been instances from owners of various interference engines that have skipped timing/snapped timing belts, what-have-you and not caused valve damage as rare as that may be (hence all the confusion surrounding interference damage)....
Ive read threads from people with NON-interference engines ("Yota's 4SFE, for example) having valve damage after a timing belt failure, so who really knows.

OnkelUdo
11-02-2014, 12:39 AM
OK, today was major deconstruction day. Interior except the dash is gone. Anyone wanting ANY interior parts from a 1995 Trans Sport with tan and leather interior let me know.

Rust is a little more pervasive than I expected. Front subframe mounts and the subframe are sound but what appears to be a jack point that extends from the "frame rails" to the spot exactly behind the front wheels, at right angles to the frame rails, is gone as well as the outboard pinch weld area outboard of the channel. This does not appear to be important for a race car but indicates that water traveled down under the fenders and attacked this area. The channels themselves where I would normally put a jack stand are punky as well (12" behind the firewall where the weird pinch weld ends). I am guessing this should get reinforced if for no other reason than this is a natural jack point (subframe mount is my preference).

Seriously any interior parts are yours for free IF you falsify a receipt for about $400...plus shipping The exception are the passenger seats which look like we will be able to remount. We even have a possibly functional electric door mechanism whole and complete. I say possible because it was not functioning but this does not appear to be an issue with the mechanism but with the creative wiring in the van.

thesam1984
11-02-2014, 06:45 AM
After driving many light weight astros during the winter we always put weight in the rear for safety traction... for us it was a cut piece of thick steel that preserved storage room... try this on for size... I would take the rear seats and remove the "seats" from the rear buckets attachments... then weld on to the seats mounts a heavy bed box from a small truck.. you could also attach a fullsize spare to the box (I dont know the rules so not sure if a spare is allowed.... but it would give a secure place to store tools and be removable if this race van ever gets used as anything else...

Im very interested in seing what your theme would be. Inspector Gadgets van would be cool. Mystery Machine? Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.... shuttle craft from star trek... or a giant dust buster vac...

OnkelUdo
11-04-2014, 05:34 PM
After driving many light weight astros during the winter we always put weight in the rear for safety traction... for us it was a cut piece of thick steel that preserved storage room... try this on for size... I would take the rear seats and remove the "seats" from the rear buckets attachments... then weld on to the seats mounts a heavy bed box from a small truck.. you could also attach a fullsize spare to the box (I dont know the rules so not sure if a spare is allowed.... but it would give a secure place to store tools and be removable if this race van ever gets used as anything else...

Im very interested in seing what your theme would be. Inspector Gadgets van would be cool. Mystery Machine? Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.... shuttle craft from star trek... or a giant dust buster vac...

Any weight system needs to be easily removable at the track as that is where I and my 95# Bernese Mountain Dog will be sleeping. A ballast box of some sort is a good idea.

Themes...you hit a couple but the list is virtually endless. I admit, the Inspector Gadget van was not one I had thought of.

lemons bob
11-04-2014, 05:58 PM
Any weight system needs to be easily removable at the track as that is where I and my 95# Bernese Mountain Dog will be sleeping. A ballast box of some sort is a good idea.

Themes...you hit a couple but the list is virtually endless. I admit, the Inspector Gadget van was not one I had thought of.

Just have Wally lay in the back during the race, that should even it out a bit. :)

Maybe you can teach him how to counterbalance the car so he can move around like they do on the side car motorcycles and he can work as an active suspension component.

Jr's3800
11-04-2014, 11:02 PM
Keep the motor cool, 180F thermostat.. The trans cooler you were talking about would be good as well.. Use plugs at least a stage cooler.. If you are keeping the stock airbox, find a way to open it up, the 3800 wants that air..

I know that all of the Vin 3 3.8's and all of the 3800's could kiss valves if they jumped time... Non of these were 0 deck motors, so the crown of the piston comes above the deck.. If you are unlucky, its catastrophic when it happens.. I have seen a couple crunch valves at 80 MPH, not pretty but very very rare..

As for the suspension, on the rear make sure the shocks are in good shape.. May be more that anyone would want to spend but Addco does make a 1" rear bar for the dust buster.. On the front go poly all the way if possible..

I have run a 235 60 16 on the van, however it required longer wheel studs and spacers to keep from rubbing the struts.. On the rear I had a little shock rub on hard turns..

As for gearing you could also install a GX3( 3.33 ) diff, really a little overkill for a 3800... the 3.06 ratio diff thats in it is kind of the best of both worlds if that makes sense..

As well get an adjustable modulator for the trans, dial it up a bit just so that the trans shifts firm..

On the intake side, there is some room to clean up the lower intake to gain a bit more flow into the motor..

Valvetrain wise you should be able to use 1.8 roller rockers to bump the valve lift to .460 iirc( cost attached to this tho )


Now if this 95 has the original motor, then it would be the series I oddball.. It was a series I 3800 using the 3800 Series II crank, oil pan

It is a shame that 95 was the last of the 3800V6 GM vans..

Duke George V
11-04-2014, 11:52 PM
3.33 gearing would be great, except the computer would wig out and put the drive train in limp mode. It's not like Bob's Ciera, which has a dumb box of rocks behind the engine that the computer doesn't control.

OnkelUdo
11-05-2014, 12:13 AM
So I have now sourced (after many false starts) a complete 5-bolt, 2005 Uplander rear axle with all brake hardware attached. I even got to look at it and verified the hub bolt pattern.

We are now going to "challenge" the notion that it requires 16" wheels by shaving one caliper and checking clearance against a our lone OEM steel wheel. Rear disc conversion is less about braking power and more about easy of maint and inspection.

The addco bar is in our plan...maybe not race one.

We noticed a lot of weirdness on the 3800 in the 1995. The throttle body is very different than the series I i pulled off a 1995 Buick. Different diameter, TPS part number and even orientation of the other sensors (forget which).

Front bushing replacement for the first race will be on a case-by-case basis but are Urethane bushings off-the-shelf items or a challenge to find?

"As well get an adjustable modulator for the trans, dial it up a bit just so that the trans shifts firm." I am still trying to wrap my head around how this can be an electronically controlled tranny that cannot be converted (easily) to manual shift. I am willing to run it as a real automatic but the ability to avoid the throttle-off, hard braking upshift is highly desirable. Again, this is not a track day it is 14-24 hours of full throttle, full brake, rinse, repeat.

We have notice a whif of hot coolant and a tiny bit of oil smoke off the front manifold. After safety and basic upgrades this is probably #1 on the list of troubleshooting. reinforcing the punky "frame" rails that are not able to be used as jack points is next. the frame horns that go from the front of those rails to directly behind the rear wheels are gone but do not appear to effect our goals.

Fuel and brake lines are surprisingly out of the line of fire for cage welding. they lie on this frame rail or inside it and are well clear of the outside 5" of the floor pan.

OnkelUdo
11-05-2014, 12:18 AM
Just have Wally lay in the back during the race, that should even it out a bit. :)

Maybe you can teach him how to counterbalance the car so he can move around like they do on the side car motorcycles and he can work as an active suspension component.

Yeah, that ain't happening. They do not make a fire suit in his size. The harness just pisses him off and he hates motion...all of it but especially any that he did not create in the pursuit of bacon or bratwurst.

OnkelUdo
11-05-2014, 12:19 AM
3.33 gearing would be great, except the computer would wig out and put the drive train in limp mode. It's not like Bob's Ciera, which has a dumb box of rocks behind the engine that the computer doesn't control.

This was one of my initial concerns. Will the switch to a much lower profile tire do the same? we are talking a change in circumference of almost 14.

Jr's3800
11-05-2014, 12:25 AM
Actually it won't... It will bounce the rev limiter on the stock chip.. If he has the constants changed for the shift points and or shift RPM's then that problem will be corrected.. In a manner of speaking the 94-95 3800 PCM is dumber that a box of door knobs.. This PCM reacts faster and has more brains per say but still a bit on the brain dead side..

What it looks at is Vehicle speed, it doesn't really care about the gear ratio as its not using an input and output reluctors.. as long as the 3.33 has a 31 tooth reluctor the PCM will be fine with it, with the exception of WOT shift speed / Shift RPM's.. If the WOT shift speed is not changed( lowered ) then it will bounce the limiter..

I'll use an example... When the trans in my 95 TS died( it was a 3.33 ratio, Somebody screwed that rebuild up bad ) The only issue it had was you'd hit the rev limiter at WOT.. Never had any issues shifting.. I swear to this day with the 3.33 it could pull a house..

Ok the GX3 4T60E failed( burned up )... We then installed a 4T60E HD, this had the 37 Drive and 33 Driven sprockets, with the HD 3.29 Diff making it an overall 2.93 ratio with a 30 tooth reluctor.. In this case the shift speed would happen before you got to the rev limiter so I never hit the limiter.. We never tuned for any of this..

The 97 PCM is a bit of a different story.. However, when using the 4T60E there are only a couple of constants that it deals with... The 4T65E is another story..

96-97 PCM's got pissy with this and had to be flashed with the proper info for the gear ratio used..

Jr's3800
11-05-2014, 12:30 AM
This was one of my initial concerns. Will the switch to a much lower profile tire do the same? we are talking a change in circumference of almost 14.

Changing tire size will throw the speedo off a bit... Say the speedo says your going 25, you drive by a radar speed sign and it says 22 Mph.. We ll your really doing 22, but the PCM will think its doing 25 Mph... It will still shift hit TCC lock and the like..

Do you know anyone with a tuner that can flash that EPROM chip?

Jr's3800
11-05-2014, 12:41 AM
Don't quote me, but I think you could get a front dog bone from a 96 U body, I forget what exactly I did for mine.. But the front part on the radiator header is from a 96 3400 powered U body, iirc the other part is from a 3800 W body, I did this so I could use poly on both ends of the dog bone..

For the front sway bar there is an energy suspension bushing for the sway bar to control arm, and for the center bar bushings I am not sure of that one, but I would think you could find one that would work..

On the rear addco bar, all of the links in the kit are poly..

Did you by chance find a throttle body from a 95 Series II 3800? Or maybe a 95 Supercharged? Was this buick you got the part from a LeSabre or a Park avenue?
94-95 L27 3800 throttle bodies are the same, and 94-95 L67 throttle bodies are the same( largest 3800 TB made).. with the series II things changed a bit..

I still feel that the 3.06 would be the better all around ratio, The 3.33 will run the 3800 out of breath quick towards the top of the rev band..

The stock torque converter on the 95 van is a 1900 stall, most will stall 2000-2300 depending.. This was to help get the 3800 into its fat torque curve quickly..

As well if your going to run it hard, I would recommend that oil cooler too..

OnkelUdo
11-05-2014, 12:45 AM
Changing tire size will throw the speedo off a bit... Say the speedo says your going 25, you drive by a radar speed sign and it says 22 Mph.. We ll your really doing 22, but the PCM will think its doing 25 Mph... It will still shift hit TCC lock and the like..

Do you know anyone with a tuner that can flash that EPROM chip?

Not off the top of my head and honestly, what would this gain us in our VERY limited application (honest question, not combative)? It we are approaching the rev limiter, we want to shift if it is 35 mph or 25 mph ground speed. If the tuner would allow us to hold a lower gear while braking violently, that would a plus (seriously, 60% of the braking is threshold modulation and with 10 turns in 1.9 miles there is a lot of braking).

the lower profile tires on 15" wheels change the effective gearing so much some of the courses could theoretically become all 3rd gear course. Gingerman is a 3-4 course for our 5-speed manual Saturn.

OnkelUdo
11-05-2014, 01:00 AM
Don't quote me, but I think you could get a front dog bone from a 96 U body, I forget what exactly I did for mine.. But the front part on the radiator header is from a 96 3400 powered U body, iirc the other part is from a 3800 W body, I did this so I could use poly on both ends of the dog bone..

For the front sway bar there is an energy suspension bushing for the sway bar to control arm, and for the center bar bushings I am not sure of that one, but I would think you could find one that would work..

On the rear addco bar, all of the links in the kit are poly..

Did you by chance find a throttle body from a 95 Series II 3800? Or maybe a 95 Supercharged? Was this buick you got the part from a LeSabre or a Park avenue?
94-95 L27 3800 throttle bodies are the same, and 94-95 L67 throttle bodies are the same( largest 3800 TB made).. with the series II things changed a bit..

I still feel that the 3.06 would be the better all around ratio, The 3.33 will run the 3800 out of breath quick towards the top of the rev band..

The stock torque converter o

n the 95 van is a 1900 stall, most will stall 2000-2300 depending.. This was to help get the 3800 into its fat torque curve quickly..

As well if your going to run it hard, I would recommend that oil cooler too..

I am 90% sure the TB came off a Regal and it certainly was NOT supercharged but it is much larger diameter so maybe it was a one of the LeSabre's or a swapped car, late 1995, who knows. I do know thevalve cover was blank as were all the other series I's but this means nothing.

We will be running hard. On the Saturn we used an oil filter relocation kit using the GIANT Ford 5.0 oil filter and a GM HD van/truck tranny cooler in line. The pump on the Saturn was a high quality (unlike most of the car) gerotor pump with more than enough flow to handle the extra line, friction loses, etc. Also one of my original questions...is the 3800 similar? This all increased our oil capacity 25%.

Jr's3800
11-05-2014, 01:03 AM
I think I have the gist of what you're saying... A lot of the shifting is speed and load based.. If you put it in first and held it to the floor on the stock size tires it would force a shift to 2nd even if you are in manual 1.. If you left it in manual 3rd it could be forced into 4th gear if you are going quite fast..lol..

But for what you are describing with the smaller tires and in 3rd gear, I do think that could work.. I could see you coming out of a turn and nailing it, catch second shift to 3rd, brake, floor it shift.... So I do think you may be ok..

As for the tuner, yes you could change the shift speed tables to stay in a certain gear until a higher speed, and just the same the other way..

I guess Tap shift would be nice

Too bad its not a Manual..

lemons bob
11-05-2014, 02:26 PM
With the change in diameter of tires you are looking at it won't be a lot, you are talking about 5 mph at 80. You will not get anywhere near the top end for this car at autobahn, although not knowing the shift points of a 4 speed can't say you can't hit the rev limiter on 3rd.

The shorter tires while losing a bit of top end, you should gain a little acceleration but also improve braking, and with the 24 this year saving brakes will be an issue, talking to Roland we were one of the few teams that didn't have to swap pads, and a bunch of the a and b class teams did it multiple times at the 14. Also will lower your center of gravity, cause you know the whole vehicle is lower, reduce roll of the tires which should reduce roll of the body, and have less unsprung weight.

However all of it is really a bunch of pretty minor improvements and changes. The wheel weight is probably the biggest thing out of all of it, larger wheels though do give a little more open space which should help cool the brakes and I think when we had 14s the brake heat effected the tires, and definitely raised the tire pressures.

As for bushings, rubber ones are available everywhere, urethane you may have to actually do the research to find what will fit, I doubt any will be listed as fitting so you might have to shop by dimensions.

OnkelUdo
11-06-2014, 01:10 PM
With the change in diameter of tires you are looking at it won't be a lot, you are talking about 5 mph at 80. You will not get anywhere near the top end for this car at autobahn, although not knowing the shift points of a 4 speed can't say you can't hit the rev limiter on 3rd.

The shorter tires while losing a bit of top end, you should gain a little acceleration but also improve braking, and with the 24 this year saving brakes will be an issue, talking to Roland we were one of the few teams that didn't have to swap pads, and a bunch of the a and b class teams did it multiple times at the 14. Also will lower your center of gravity, cause you know the whole vehicle is lower, reduce roll of the tires which should reduce roll of the body, and have less unsprung weight.

However all of it is really a bunch of pretty minor improvements and changes. The wheel weight is probably the biggest thing out of all of it, larger wheels though do give a little more open space which should help cool the brakes and I think when we had 14s the brake heat effected the tires, and definitely raised the tire pressures.

As for bushings, rubber ones are available everywhere, urethane you may have to actually do the research to find what will fit, I doubt any will be listed as fitting so you might have to shop by dimensions.

If we can stay with the 15's our difference in circumference will be 14% so about 10-11 mph at 80. I still doubt we will ever hit fourth on Gingerman or Autobahn. If we get it together in time...maybe at Barber.

The Saturn was so light that we ran without mechanical issues at the 14 hours straight and still had about an hour left on our front brakes. We are not even using super fancy pads...just EBC Yellows. All our drives are pretty kind to the car which helps.

By the way, let me know if you want to come out any weekend and experience the total DOMINATION that is the u-van build. We are doing the build at a teammates garage that is in the far south suburbs...as in the Crete.

lemons bob
11-06-2014, 02:59 PM
Crete is only like an hour away from me, Next couple weeks I'm busy but after that I'd be happy to come down and give a hand. Will help me procrastinate tearing apart perfectly good things in hope of making some kind of poorly executed improvements.

thesam1984
11-06-2014, 04:34 PM
If I remember right 3800s had a high milelage fatal flaw that is easy to catch... there is a plastic connection going from the radiator to the motor and it corrodes and bursts... if dont catch it over heating is easy when this particular one goes... I would replace all the connectors so it doesn't take you out during a race or worse... sorry I wish I knew exactly what the part was but it happened on both Bonneville we had around 200k

lemons bob
11-06-2014, 05:10 PM
First race we got hit by a couple fuel issues. The fuel pump died, and the fuel injectors were mostly bad. Fuel pump I guess check the pressure if its good you can hope it will last. The injectors if they are shared with the 60 degree you'll want to just get a multimeter and ohm them out. They all should be really close in value if they aren't I would replace all of them. For the 2.8 I want to say they need to ohm at 13 or above, and you ant them all pretty close. After the race when we checked they were all over the place from 13.1 to 2.0

thesam1984
11-08-2014, 04:30 AM
First race we got hit by a couple fuel issues. The fuel pump died, and the fuel injectors were mostly bad. Fuel pump I guess check the pressure if its good you can hope it will last. The injectors if they are shared with the 60 degree you'll want to just get a multimeter and ohm them out. They all should be really close in value if they aren't I would replace all of them. For the 2.8 I want to say they need to ohm at 13 or above, and you ant them all pretty close. After the race when we checked they were all over the place from 13.1 to 2.0

If you do need injectors I just picked up a rebuilt set from Precision Auto Injectors for my 3.3 for under $100... they have tons and if the 3800 uses the same ones he has too many so they are less expensive

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-08-2014, 06:41 PM
For the 2.8

I suspect for these 2.8 engines an used 19 lb injector would work just fine, and best cross reference I have is

Bosch 0280 155 746 (http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2060822-Bosch-0280-155-746-%96-19-Injectors-%96-Set-of-6)


and they were used on VOLVO 850 960 S70 V70 C70 V90 S90

I suspect these 22LB FUEL INJECTORS (http://www.ebay.com/itm/22LB-FUEL-INJECTORS-4-HOLES-FIREBIRD-CAMARO-CORVETTE-5-7-TPI-L98-Hi-Performance-/221592704721?_trksid=p2054897.l4275) would work fine for your application.

Once injectors set around, they can "lock-up," due to gumming up.

These Gen III injectors are much better...no, not gain in horsepower, but a pinch better fuel economy, and a pinch better torque.

thesam1984
11-09-2014, 02:31 AM
Those are the ones that Jeep 4.0 uses as an unofficial upgrade... ill have to cross reference but 19lb bosch gen III are what I just purchased... is there any way to keep them from gumming up in storage? You know all that sort of such... , not to hijake this thread because im iching to see pics of this race machine!

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-09-2014, 10:33 AM
Those are the ones that Jeep 4.0 uses as an unofficial upgrade...is there any way to keep them from gumming up in storage?

Yes, and Volvos 240s/740s/940s upgrade also on redblock NA engines.

In this thread, Preventing Ethanol Blended Fuel Problems (http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?39326-Preventing-Ethanol-Blended-Fuel-Problems) , I cited relevant info.

Spraying WD-40 into injectors while energized briefly will preserve them longer.

OnkelUdo
11-09-2014, 02:55 PM
Yes, and Volvos 240s/740s/940s upgrade also on redblock NA engines.

In this thread, Preventing Ethanol Blended Fuel Problems (http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?39326-Preventing-Ethanol-Blended-Fuel-Problems) , I cited relevant info.

Spraying WD-40 into injectors while energized briefly will preserve them longer.

OK, if these use the same Bosch injectors as the red blocks I honestly cannot see them failing. With a combined 1,000,000 on them personally and a regular on the Brickboard I have heard of maybe 3 failures of the injectors...ever. Unless GM has managed to make the third most reliable part on a B230f-equipped Volvo unreliable, this will be way down the list.

OnkelUdo
11-09-2014, 03:27 PM
OK, now that I have my Uplander rear brake upgrade in hand I have a few questions posted over in the upgrades section. In short, need help on the transition line needed to be made up for the existing soft line to the caliper and the sincere hope that I can shave enough on the caliper for the 15" steel wheel to clear.

This weekend we do a driveway race alignment (hopefully including a significant camber change), change all the rubber hoses, mounting the race seat, and begin the battery relocation/kill switch install. So a couple of question on this as well:

As the alternator oddly requires a 10V signal from the instrument panel (same ref voltage used for coolant temp and fuel gauge) is this a case where we would need diode inline for the alternator to keep from burning crap out. The kill switch has to kill all power which means the jumper normally installed between the starter and alternator has to be eliminated. On boring alternators this is no problem because you just break the charging circuit as well. For more complex alternators this can cause a coil-discharge-like spike which takes out computers and fuseable links on instrument panel circuit boards.

The lower strut mount on the Saturn were not "slotted" from the factory for more camber adjustment but the stamp steel two-layer piece with the holes in it apparently already had the rib on the outer stamping to show the GM tech's what metal to grind out for this adjustment. Can I assume the U-Van is the same way?

For reasons that will probably make no sense, we would like to maintain the electric fore-aft adjustment of the drivers seat. Does this portion of the electric seat easily separate from the rest of the seat?

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-09-2014, 05:12 PM
alternator

See 1-Wire or 3-Wire
(http://bob_skelly.home.comcast.net/~bob_skelly/alternator_conversion/wiring_alternator1.html)

I'm assuming yours is a three wire...

Duke George V
11-09-2014, 08:35 PM
Yeah, A and U struts have camber adjustment. No grinding is necessary. Just loosen both bolts and move the spindle.

OnkelUdo
11-09-2014, 08:57 PM
See 1-Wire or 3-Wire
(http://bob_skelly.home.comcast.net/~bob_skelly/alternator_conversion/wiring_alternator1.html)

I'm assuming yours is a three wire...

Actually it would be a four-wire with the description on that pages as the 10V reference voltage is not listed. This is what drives me around the bend. my assumption is due to the direct connection to the IP through the internal regulator that produces the 10V signal we should at the very least protect that circuit but the spike tends to travel down the battery voltage/exciter wire and if that is from the ECU/PCM/PCU or whatever GM calls the engine management computer instead of from the dash, that is the primary risk.

I will just have to look up the post about wiring the kill switch with the alternator back-feed diode and wire it that way for safety's sake.

OnkelUdo
11-09-2014, 09:01 PM
Yeah, A and U struts have camber adjustment. No grinding is necessary. Just loosen both bolts and move the spindle.

Good to know. With camber maxed out on those it will be interesting to see if we have to slot the upper strut mounts. The access is tight on these verses standard car hood so hopefully it will not be necessary.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-09-2014, 09:31 PM
Actually it would be a four-wire with the description on that pages as the 10V reference voltage is not listed..

99 malibu 2.4 alternator wiring
(http://www.justanswer.com/chevy/2n3lz-99-malibu-wires-broke-off-when-removing-alternator.html)

Show me a diagram....

OnkelUdo
11-09-2014, 11:04 PM
C = Field Duty cycle is the one that reads 10V which only exists on most cars as the regulated voltage for any items that use a modified potentiometer like the fuel level sensor, etc.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-10-2014, 12:59 AM
C = Field Duty cycle is the one that reads 10V...

When a "switched 12V source (from the ignition switch and through the ignition warning light indicator or "idiot light")" goes thru a light bulb, its voltage will drop.

So, when key switch is turned on, the alternator terminal is "grounded," so the idiot light is lit; but when vehicle is running, 12-Volts (and higher) is sent from alternator terminal to light bulb, which is off. Hence, when running, the idiot light has 12 volts on both sides of it, so it does not light up.

Hence, 10 Volt reading is the voltage drop caused via light bulb.

OnkelUdo
11-10-2014, 01:18 AM
Never seen that level of drop but I do not doubt it. Used to the standard 13.6V drop to about 12V but if the battery was already depleted, 10V might make sense. In my Eurotrash world 12v for the exciter, through the bulb is 11.5-12V...no exceptions. Volvo, Mercedes, BMW all use this standard and when the bulb is out, alternator STILL charges when you hit about 2500 RPM's as it self-excites.

So obviously out of my element.

85_Ciera_Rebuild
11-10-2014, 02:59 AM
....alternator STILL charges when you hit about 2500 RPM's as it self-excites.

Unknown...via Bosch alternators, I don't think so if exciter wire is not hooked up...at least via forum talk that is the case.

After scanning tidbits from a Corvette forum, below, I'd sure double check your alternator...if it has four wires, then MAYBE:

When the engine is running, (http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-z06-discussion/2706928-alternator-issues-fed-up.html) the generator turn-on signal is sent to the generator from the engine control module (ECM), turning on the regulator. The generator's voltage regulator controls current to the rotor, thereby controlling the output voltage. The rotor current is proportional to the electrical pulse width supplied by the regulator. When the engine is started, the regulator senses generator rotation by detecting AC voltage at the stator through an internal wire. Once the engine is running, the regulator varies the field current by controlling the pulse width. This regulates the generator output voltage for proper battery charging and electrical system operation. The generator F terminal is connected internally to the voltage regulator and externally to the ECM. When the voltage regulator detects a charging system problem, it grounds this circuit to signal the ECM that a problem exists. The ECM monitors the generator field duty cycle signal circuit. The system voltage sense circuit receives B+ voltage that is Hot At All Times through the HORN/ALT SENSE fuse in the underhood junction block. This voltage is used by the regulator as the reference for system voltage control. On vehicles that use a sense circuit connected to the voltage regulator, this circuit must be operating properly for the charging system to work correctly, when there is a charging system concern all circuits at the generator should be tested.

rlchv70
11-10-2014, 01:26 PM
For reasons that will probably make no sense, we would like to maintain the electric fore-aft adjustment of the drivers seat. Does this portion of the electric seat easily separate from the rest of the seat?

Took a look at this yesterday. The seat just unbolts from the base, leaving a relatively level, flat surface.

lemons bob
11-10-2014, 03:20 PM
You should be able to get decent camber without a plate, although you won't be invited to join the stance club. I would probably try and figure out how to get some caster instead of more camber. They caster is 0, because they really didn't know how to setup fwd cars when they started this platform, a little caster will probably help you a lot more than some more camber.

Old Gold
11-10-2014, 05:21 PM
OnkelUdo,

I don't know if you're still looking for urethane bushings, but Prothane 7-304 bushings take care of the front control arms. They're marketed for the rear control arms of '84-'87 Fieros which just happens to be the same part number for the front of Dustbuster vans and A/X bodies. The only downside is that you have to use the old, outer, metal shells from the old bushings and insert the new urethane bushings into those shells. Not a big deal, but a little bit of elbow grease. I got mine from Jegs, they seem to be the least expensive:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Prothane/311/7-304-BL/10002/-1

OnkelUdo
11-12-2014, 10:33 PM
OnkelUdo,

I don't know if you're still looking for urethane bushings, but Prothane 7-304 bushings take care of the front control arms. They're marketed for the rear control arms of '84-'87 Fieros which just happens to be the same part number for the front of Dustbuster vans and A/X bodies. The only downside is that you have to use the old, outer, metal shells from the old bushings and insert the new urethane bushings into those shells. Not a big deal, but a little bit of elbow grease. I got mine from Jegs, they seem to be the least expensive:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Prothane/311/7-304-BL/10002/-1
Good to know. Probably not making it in right away as our cage shipped today and we already have at least 4 weekends of work in paid-for parts.

To all following this, we likely will have some important progress over this weekend. Battery relocation (I would do that even if it were not for weight distribution...what a terrible location!), sound NVH mat removal, kill switch wiring, paint removal for cage base plates, ALIGNMENT!, race seat mounting, rear disc conversion, etc...Not all of it will happen this weekend but most should at least get started.

Next weekend we have another team coming down to help (the dustbuster has a fan club) so we will see how many bodies we can throw at the problem.

lemons bob
11-14-2014, 02:42 PM
Which team, I can actually think of 2 local illinois teams that may be interested. Hell Crabspirits has talked about running a dustbuster for years,

http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?ld=20141114&app=1&c=funv11.1&s=funv11&rc=funv11&dc=&euip=69.241.116.10&pvaid=cd3b1748f4e44dda973fe3eec1b2da08&dt=Desktop&fct.uid=0871fc343c224fecaf037d6865ef1d9e&en=j4k%2bKamJin1316oxARrZTSP%2fhvCjF161i7Td76Mt4H8 %3d&du=http%3a%2f%2fblog.caranddriver.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2013%2f06%2f2-MetSHO-1-626x426.jpg&ru=http%3a%2f%2fblog.caranddriver.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2013%2f06%2f2-MetSHO-1-626x426.jpg&ap=12&coi=772&cop=main-title&npp=12&p=0&pp=0&pct=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.foxtab.com%2fp.php%3fconte xt%3dactivity%26status%3dclick%26cd%3d2XzuyEtN2Y1L 1Qzu0DyE0B0E0DzyyCtByB0BtCyCtByDyEyCtN0D0Tzu0CzztC tBtN1L2XzutBtFtBtFtCyDtFtCyCtAtCtN1L1Czu1G2Z1S%26c r%3d712091298%26ir%3dntb%26elng%3den%26a%3dfxtb103 %26uref%3df0%26f%3d2%26cat%3dimages%26ulng%3den-US%252Cen%253Bq%253D0.5%26sid%3da8ae8a14a404a3cd6a 25f49eab16acdb%26stype%3d%26sesid%3d64bf4ad8e724b8 ce80c782791ef19482%26csr%3d1%26ipblock%3d0&ep=12&mid=9&hash=BC450ABAB4BC20D5BB7B1E21D3EFE6C9 (Crabspirits is captain of the team that made the MetSho, this vehicle is actually a Geo metro that they shoved a Taurus SHO drivetrain in the back)

although he got distracted by the motorcycled engined subaru 360.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3KI0mvw47g (a test drive of this wonderful idea of a deathtrap)

I think I'll be free next weekend too. According to how secretive you want this build to be you might even tempt Judge Eric to come out, make a whole big Lemon party. Actually don't call it a Lemon Party, cause that is already a thing on the internet and it really isn't what you will want this to be.

thesam1984
11-14-2014, 03:38 PM
Since your all helping, you could call it Lemon-Aid

lemons bob
11-14-2014, 03:45 PM
Since your all helping, you could call it Lemon-Aid

That may get confused by a different team with their metro running a bmw e30 drivetrain. http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/SAT_LemonaidMetro.jpg

thesam1984
11-14-2014, 06:01 PM
That may get confused by a different team with their metro running a bmw e30 drivetrain. http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/SAT_LemonaidMetro.jpg

I like their number, 53, a nod to Herbie, small car who races with the big dogs

lemons bob
11-14-2014, 07:58 PM
I like their number, 53, a nod to Herbie, small car who races with the big dogs

well and for the majority of its races it was running the stock 3 banger. They also race for a charity and the handprints I believe were all done by kids the charity helps.

OnkelUdo
11-14-2014, 09:36 PM
It is the Product Design Saturn team. They are coming all the way down from Northern Michigan to join the "party". Please, feel free to join.

We are trying to do a barbecue at my or our "Team Mom's" place Saturday night. Waiting on confirmation for how many we will have. I am in that awkward position of putting up an army in the spare 900 sq ft that is my second floor but post-divorce, no furniture up there at all. I have collected all the airbeds from all the neighbors!

The core team is wanting to announce this at the appropriate time. You know the issue, though...tell the greater racing community it is coming and someone might snipe us since we do not think we can manage the haul, team logistics and everything else for Barber...though we want to.

OnkelUdo
11-16-2014, 06:56 PM
Back to questions. Now that we determined that the Uplander brake kit actually requires 16" wheels (really tried to make the 15" steel wheels work but too much shaving would be required) we need to know what will fit...both front and rear. The existing wheels appear to be a 40mm offset and basically 4.5" backspace (give or take). Most of what we are finding in 16's and the right bolt pattern are late 1990's Bonneville wheels which appear to have the same offset but about an inch more backspace (16" x 7") so I am guessing that without a spacer we would have rubbing issues up front.

Wheels and tires are among the budget exempt items but our personal budget is getting tight so craigslist and budget tire and wheel places. Suggestions?

For yesterday's build we got less done than planned but some important items. Last of NVH mat is out of the way, seat mounting has begun, the alignment is done (It was so far off), and we started the battery relocation.

lemons bob
11-17-2014, 01:50 PM
Email me info at write_2_bob@homail.com when you figure them out. Its close enough I can go home so its one less person to have to put up.

lemons bob
11-17-2014, 04:55 PM
as for wheels, we really like our alero 15's, they come in 16 also but looks like they may only be 6.5" They are really light for stock rims though. the 15's were probably under 17lbs, and they have lots of open space for ventilation to help your brakes out. 16x7 you may want to look at the supercharged gm's or some of the newer ones. 5x115 seems to be pretty gm specific as a pattern but they've used it on their big cars since the 80s so there are lots of stock rims to chose from.

OnkelUdo
11-17-2014, 09:53 PM
BoB, I know you car is outside and it cold bt do you happen to know the spec's on those wheels. i am assuming they are also 6.5" wide and i think that is the key to avoiding the back space issue...if there is an issue.

Duke George V
11-18-2014, 12:07 AM
The Bonneville wheels are indeed 7" wide. Grand Ams and Aleros have 15 x 6 and 16 x 6.5 wheels.

OnkelUdo
11-18-2014, 12:31 AM
So in theory, the back space on those Alero wheels is about 5" which should work. Or even better they change the offset by 1/2" (12-13mm). See our quandary? the race tires we use already exanp the width by about 1/2" and this has caused issues on the Saturn by wearing through brake lines that we did not adequately restrain.

lemons bob
11-18-2014, 01:45 PM
I'll try and get to my shed today, I think the offset is cast into the inside of the wheel. Actually I may have an email discussing this with the buy I bought my wheels with and I believe the offset is the same for both the 16" and 15" wheel even though I think gm should have made the back spacing the same and not the offset.

jlattyak
11-18-2014, 08:43 PM
I think it is stamped on the back side of the rim, or it is under the center cap.

lemons bob
11-18-2014, 10:23 PM
it was stamped on one of the spokes and they are 42mm

thesam1984
11-19-2014, 07:22 AM
If I am not mistaken the Bonneville rims (and not all of them) were wider because of the performance heritage. Most rims on standard cars were the regular size... my 15" rims came from a run of the mill beige LeSabre... I would imagine the most Chevy and Olds are the same. Now if I go to originalwheels.com and click "Buick", then "LeSabre", then "1995" I find the wheels I put on my car (15" x 115 bolt, 6" wide) They have the backspacing specs as well as bolt patten size and while they dont have everything, they are the most accurate I have found on the net. Not that the site Iis without its faults... they dont have pictures for a good portion of rims/wheels and the rims go back only to 1990 for some reason...I mostly use it as a starting point for finding rims as I have always been one to switch them about.

OnkelUdo
11-19-2014, 12:50 PM
Now if I go to originalwheels.com and click "Buick", then "LeSabre", then "1995" I find the wheels I put on my car (15" x 115 bolt, 6" wide) They have the backspacing specs as well as bolt patten size and while they dont have everything, they are the most accurate I have found on the net.

See, followed those instructions exactly and all they give me is "15" x 6", 5 Lug, 115mm Bolt Pattern" like most other sites.

thesam1984
11-19-2014, 06:06 PM
Oh I thought you were trying to confirm the width... onlything I can think of is call the company and ask more specific dimensions. They should have them

OnkelUdo
11-19-2014, 07:44 PM
Oh I thought you were trying to confirm the width... onlything I can think of is call the company and ask more specific dimensions. They should have them
No, I am making certain assumptions but:

Since it appears that all of these FWD GM 5 x 115 wheels have basically the same offset, it stand to reason that as width goes up, backspace increases. Stock U-Van 15" x 6" wheels have a smidge over 4.5" backspace 16" x 7" are all we have gone to see so far and they have a backspace of about 5.5". I am pretty sure and extra inch (plus an extra .25" from our wider tires) is going to be a problem at full-lock, rubbing on the inner fender and potentially structural or suspension components up front. Would hate to drop $150-200 on wheels that can only be used on the back of the van.

16" x 6.5", plus our tires, would only add 3/4" so much less chance of rubbing but this only works if the offset stays the same (40 mm). The width of 6.5" SHOULD work but without the back space and offset information, we cannot be sure. Whew! I really would hate to have typed all that and the next post s someone saying "Hey, bro the 16 x 7" wheels work great on my 1995 Trans Sport with no rubbing and here are the picture as well as pictures of the offset # and a measurement of the backspace".

lemons bob
11-19-2014, 08:35 PM
No, I am making certain assumptions but:

Since it appears that all of these FWD GM 5 x 115 wheels have basically the same offset, it stand to reason that as width goes up, backspace increases. Stock U-Van 15" x 6" wheels have a smidge over 4.5" backspace 16" x 7" are all we have gone to see so far and they have a backspace of about 5.5". I am pretty sure and extra inch (plus an extra .25" from our wider tires) is going to be a problem at full-lock, rubbing on the inner fender and potentially structural or suspension components up front. Would hate to drop $150-200 on wheels that can only be used on the back of the van.

16" x 6.5", plus our tires, would only add 3/4" so much less chance of rubbing but this only works if the offset stays the same (40 mm). The width of 6.5" SHOULD work but without the back space and offset information, we cannot be sure. Whew! I really would hate to have typed all that and the next post s someone saying "Hey, bro the 16 x 7" wheels work great on my 1995 Trans Sport with no rubbing and here are the picture as well as pictures of the offset # and a measurement of the backspace".

I'd have to agree with you on potential problems since you are also probably going to be going with much more negative camber than you are supposed to which would increase likely hood of the tire rubbing. Tire availablity in 16 I believe means you will be running taller tires than we do on 15" rims which would also make it more likely to rub that our tire height with negative camber because the wheels are angled in on the top.

Duke George V
11-19-2014, 11:19 PM
I will have to dig up the pictures, but I used 16" wheels from a 95-01 Lumina on my old Celebrity with 225-50 tires and never had any fitment issues.

thesam1984
11-19-2014, 11:51 PM
Yeah... best thing you can do is by a cheapo pair on craigslist with tires and resell them if they dont work... but what a pain... Never owned a U-van so I dont know any oth that such...

OnkelUdo
11-20-2014, 01:12 AM
We only ended up with about 1.5% negative camber but at a 12.5" (approximately) radius that is a decent amount "back space" added at the top of the tire (math is hard).

OnkelUdo
11-30-2014, 12:26 PM
We picked p a set of mid-90's Impala steel wheels yesterday at the PnP half-price sale. We are pretty sure with the lowest profile tire we can get for the series (215/24/R16) we will be good...but it is close. The reason we believe this is the 225/60/R16's on the wheels fit the rear and just barely caused clearance issues on the front it the vertical reinforcement for the spring perch on the front...The race tires have a sidewall about 3/8" narrower with a sidewall height about 1 1/2" shorter.

During the last build day we found a completely rotten brake line...of course we tried to repair the worst section and then another spot started leaking. I am sure everyone will be shock that is the one of the longest lines in the car. Any idea what size he fittings on the hard lines are?

Both inner wheel well to firewall junctions are gone. Once we started pulling the sealant out what was left of the metal just came with it. We had hope to run the cage baseplates up the side and onto the firewall but that ain't happening now.

One of the guys from the other team identified our biggest (hopefully only) oil leak as the rear valve cover. This of course involved him becoming one with the engine bay for the better part of a couple of hours but it is changed.

OnkelUdo
12-07-2014, 10:52 AM
We got the first of of the Uplander rear disc brake conversion on the axle. Very important tidbit:

The Impala, Saturn Vue and few others appear to use a 16" x 6.5" with a 52 mm offset verses the 40-44 mm that is more common on the a-bodies. 8043A or 8043U is what you need for steel wheels and any 16" from a 2002-2007 Vue, 2000-2007 Impala, etc.

You still have to stay with very low profile tire. In our case 215/45ZR16 but you could probably get away with a 1/4-3/8" taller sidewall but probably no wider (assuming you are not running front wheel spacers).

We will have to take measurements to confirm but it also appears that the conversion adds about 1.5" per side to the track so you tires are likely to stick out all the way to the edge of the wheel well in the rear.

This is all for the Uplander conversion for anyone checking this thread without reading the whole thing.

Pontiac6ksteawd
12-08-2014, 09:16 AM
Rims to look for would also be the newer Impala (09) as well. but they will have the 6.5. I beleive the only car that will have the width and backspacing you are looking for is going to be a Pontiac Grand Prix from 88-92ish. In either the TGP or GTP platform, and I dont remember the width that they had. But finding those in steel is going to be impossible, and in steel only came in 15's. Now if you dont mind the aluminium, your options open up.

A wheel to consider, for good brake venting, would be a steel spare tire wheel from a 07-12 Chev Malibu Pontiac G6. They are going to be 17x7, but I cant find the lug spacing or backspacing anywhere for stock. So it would be at least one to consider.

These are the ones I am thinking (just for reference) http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-PONTIAC-G6-WHEEL-RIM-17x7-STEEL-/331349444814?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d25f748ce&vxp=mtr

OnkelUdo
12-09-2014, 01:23 AM
Rims to look for would also be the newer Impala (09) as well. but they will have the 6.5. I beleive the only car that will have the width and backspacing you are looking for is going to be a Pontiac Grand Prix from 88-92ish. In either the TGP or GTP platform, and I dont remember the width that they had. But finding those in steel is going to be impossible, and in steel only came in 15's. Now if you dont mind the aluminium, your options open up.

A wheel to consider, for good brake venting, would be a steel spare tire wheel from a 07-12 Chev Malibu Pontiac G6. They are going to be 17x7, but I cant find the lug spacing or backspacing anywhere for stock. So it would be at least one to consider.

These are the ones I am thinking (just for reference) http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-PONTIAC-G6-WHEEL-RIM-17x7-STEEL-/331349444814?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d25f748ce&vxp=mtr

As mentioned "The Impala, Saturn Vue and few others appear to use a 16" x 6.5" with a 52 mm offset verses the 40-44 mm that is more common on the a-bodies. 8043A or 8043U is what you need for steel wheels and any 16" from a 2002-2007 Vue, 2000-2007 Impala, etc."

We are ambivalent as to alloy verses steel except the steel wheels can take more abuse. A U-van will have to be reliable to the point of bulletproof to be competitive in class C. The van will not be quick but can play the tortoise to other's hare. this will take a few races but I think we are on the right track.

Duke George V
12-09-2014, 01:43 AM
The Epsilon cars use a 5 x 110 mm spacing.

lemons bob
12-09-2014, 02:56 PM
For Lemons I would probably go with the wheels with the smaller offset. I'm having a hard time seeing how having the wheels in the back be a little out further being bad.

OnkelUdo
12-09-2014, 03:44 PM
For Lemons I would probably go with the wheels with the smaller offset. I'm having a hard time seeing how having the wheels in the back be a little out further being bad.

What we have now really seems fine. I see no value in having different front and rear wheels if it can be avoided because that means double the number of mounted spares, potential confusion in the pits if one needs replaced in a hurry due to accident damage (or running of parts that fell off your car), etc. Besides, the 52 mm offset still only gives us about 3/4" of clearance in the rear...40 mm like all the Buick and Caddy wheels we looked at would cut that back to a 1/4". I think you are thinking back space...because in our application a little more offset is a very good thing.

Now we just have to find at least two more of these not so common wheels (though by no means rare).

lemons bob
12-09-2014, 06:46 PM
What we have now really seems fine. I see no value in having different front and rear wheels if it can be avoided because that means double the number of mounted spares, potential confusion in the pits if one needs replaced in a hurry due to accident damage (or running of parts that fell off your car), etc. Besides, the 52 mm offset still only gives us about 3/4" of clearance in the rear...40 mm like all the Buick and Caddy wheels we looked at would cut that back to a 1/4". I think you are thinking back space...because in our application a little more offset is a very good thing.

Now we just have to find at least two more of these not so common wheels (though by no means rare).

offset is distance from center, although to be fair I never can remember which side is positive and negative. As long as you have clearance in the front run it as it is.

OnkelUdo
12-14-2014, 01:09 PM
New question. Anyone know what fitting size the flare fitting on the transmissions is for the tranny cooler lines. For once in my life i am hoping it is an Sae flare verses a metric flare. We need to procure two adapters to got from the tranny fitting to 1/2" barb for our external cooler.

For me the how in-radiator cooler is a type i have never seen. It has TWO radiator end tank coolers with one in each tank connected in series with hard lines. This seems like excessive complexity but i am sure Gm have a reason for it...just cannot for the life of me think of what it would be.

Finished the majority of the Uplander rear brake conversion and replace both driver side hard lines due to rot. We did not even try to unthread the hard lines from the soft lines with a flare wrench opting to cut the hard line athe the nut and use a 12 pt socket instead. Even then, the left front required putting the flex-line nut in the vice and applying way too much torque to the hard line nut...severely damaged the threads of both. I am king of done with GM's (and most over domestics in that era) sever cost cutting on critical items like brakes.

Got all the big cage elements in and half fully welded. Should have it 80% done next weekend.

rlchv70
12-15-2014, 01:41 PM
For me the how in-radiator cooler is a type i have never seen. It has TWO radiator end tank coolers with one in each tank connected in series with hard lines. This seems like excessive complexity but i am sure Gm have a reason for it...just cannot for the life of me think of what it would be.

Cooling capacity. One end tank was not enough.

OnkelUdo
12-23-2014, 09:31 AM
OK, talk to me about stock oil pan baffling in the Buick 3800. Is there any? Should we pull it and add baffling?

I only ask because, for example, Saturn 1.9L motors seem to last an average of about 1.5 races per engine if you do not baffle the pan because there is NOTHING in the pan for an engine that is mounted the wrong direction for racing. Oil starvation is a common issue for most FWD cars unless they have sort of a 1/3 coffee can in the bottom of the pan that the oil pump pick-up sits in from the factory or you add your own.

Duke George V
12-24-2014, 02:47 AM
Little to no baffling from the factory, to my knowledge.

OnkelUdo
12-24-2014, 09:54 AM
Ebay photos seem to confirm that. Can't wait to see how fun it is to pull that pan...my guess would be the motor has to be supported from above, disconnect the motor and tranny mounts and then drop the sub frame. Knowing my luck it will have at least one oil pan bolt inaccessible under the flexplate.

86euro
12-25-2014, 05:59 PM
From what I remember, the oil pan does have a tray in it to keep the oil from sloshing around too much. I also remember having to lower the crossmember down some to remove the pan.

And the trans lines are standard SAE flare.

OnkelUdo
12-29-2014, 12:21 AM
As always guys, thanks for all the help.

OnkelUdo
01-11-2015, 09:15 PM
Wahoo! We have a 1995 Lumina APV parts van! Anyone want burgundy interior bits.

I am thinking we will keep:

The entire subframe and everything attached to it
rear springs (for playing wiht lower strategies)
The ECU and maybe the rear suspension/hubs (if they work for the Uplander disc conversion)
Wiper arms and motor

What else?

Cat goes to the specialty recycler
Rest of the body wheels and various steel bits from the race van go to the bulk scrap yard

It is actually kind of sad as not much is wrong with the van (may change once we get under it) and the body is in good shape. Interior is not trashed but has some (probably common issue). Except for the same excessive pulling the other van had, it drives pretty good too. Alas, we need the spare subframe and overall this is likely cheaper than the PnP and we get to test everything first!

OnkelUdo
04-21-2015, 11:51 AM
Figured I would show you the final product before we drive it in anger this weekend...

43

It is not wearing its 16" wheels and racing tires in the pic but the Dust Buster will hit the track Friday (test and tune) for the first time and race Saturday and Sunday (hopefully) for 14 hours.

OnkelUdo
04-29-2015, 12:35 PM
And the Dustbuster is VICTORIOUS! We won the highest prize in LeMons, the Index of Effluence. Some coverage:

From BS, to end of day one to WINNERS!

We think they liked us…
http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-detroit-inspections-rear-drive-golf-gm-dustbuster-minivan-and-a-subaru-xt-turbo/

We know they liked us and showed us leading the race…it is an illusion:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-detroit-day-1-mgb-battling-mirada-for-class-c-lead-subaru-xt-ends-day-in-dfl/

We are the last mentioned because we won the HIGHEST prize in LeMons
http://blog.caranddriver.com/24-hours-of-lemons-detroit-the-winners-3/

Now we have to go about sorting the Van for true 24 hours at the end of July. The laundry list is long for the amount of time left but not all that hard:

Get "real" endurance pads
Fix charging system and probably bad ground on tranny cooler gauge
Lower rear suspension
Lower front suspension
Install additional lights and wire relays to control
Baffle oil pan
Install hydration system
Investigate the clunk under weight transfer that sounds like something binding
Transponder mount
Fuel gauge troubleshooting
Theme

Nice to have:
Passenger window electric drive (fixed!)
Less restrictive seat
Replace side and rear glass with Plexiglas
Brake cooling ducts (I still think heat was not our primary issue)
Improve the gopro mount (a full-sized VHS camcorder likes to move around)
Use "rated" transmission cooler line for all tranny cooler hoses
Put new crank and rod bearings in the motor currently in the van
Install rear sway bar (or build one if it never ships)

We look forward input on the suspension set-up side.

Duke George V
05-01-2015, 12:22 AM
Front struts get clunky when they're worn out. The struts themselves are shared between the vans and cars, but the springs are van-only. For the rear, get a hold of coils from a Lumina APV cargo van and a set of Monroe 58427 shocks. Rock Auto has them for about $63 or so for the pair. They have a 25 lb helper spring around them, designed for carrying heavier loads, and have stiffened up the rear of my wagon appreciably. I would advise against a sway bar.

Replace the bushings for the front sway bar. There are four, one on each side where it bolts to the control arms, and two in the subframe.

As for the brakes, since you already have 16" wheels, use Camaro brakes. Get the caliper brackets from a 98-02 F-body at a yard if you can. Buy the calipers and pads new for a 98-02 F-body, and rotors for a 00-05 Impala.

Transmission! Get one with a 3.33 ratio to replace your 3.05. A '95 Lumina or Monte Carlo should have one, and will be a drop-in. I think they're even wired the same, and being a '95, the computer shouldn't care too much about the different final drive. Edit to add: Looking back at the thread, I said earlier that the computer would flip out if you put in a 3.33 transmission. Further research indicates that only the OBD2 computers care about that, so a '95 shouldn't.

Prices from Rock Auto:
Moog CC667 rear variable rate springs, $61
Monroe 58427 load-assist shocks, $63

OnkelUdo
05-05-2015, 04:41 PM
Front struts get clunky when they're worn out. The struts themselves are shared between the vans and cars, but the springs are van-only. rear, get a hold of coils from a Lumina APV cargo van and a set of Monroe 58427 shocks. Rock Auto has them for about $63 or so for the pair. They have a 25 lb helper spring around them, designed for carrying heavier loads, and have stiffened up the rear of my wagon appreciably. I would advise against a sway bar.

If anything I think this will make our problem worse. We need to drop the rear (and the front) of the vehicle at least 3" from the post-gutted ride height (this ride height was at least an inch higher in the rear than before the vehicle was gutted). If anything we need a 2-3" shorter coil so that when under the weight of the car (full sag) we are sitting 2" lower than stock ride height. The total coil "load" is actually OK, just need it a lot shorter with a shorter shock (so the springs won't jump out of the perches and the stroke utilizes the low and high speed damping correctly).

The front needs both stiffer and lower.

In the end we need to drop the CG and roll center as much as reasonable and for the track we only need about 4" of wheel travel...now loading it on the trailer we could always use more but that is a different issue.

OnkelUdo
05-06-2015, 01:07 PM
As for the brakes, since you already have 16" wheels, use Camaro brakes. Get the caliper brackets from a 98-02 F-body at a yard if you can. Buy the calipers and pads new for a 98-02 F-body, and rotors for a 00-05 Impala.

On this part, what do we gain exactly (still a GM newbie) over the "big brakes" that came on the 1995? I ask mostly because the enormous full-sized banana pads on the stock brakes have limited our pad selection (none of the Raybestos racing compounds are available). At least in the images on Amazon, these appear to be the same design so I am guessing the major difference would be a slightly larger rotor?

lemons bob
05-06-2015, 08:10 PM
On this part, what do we gain exactly (still a GM newbie) over the "big brakes" that came on the 1995? I ask mostly because the enormous full-sized banana pads on the stock brakes have limited our pad selection (none of the Raybestos racing compounds are available). At least in the images on Amazon, these appear to be the same design so I am guessing the major difference would be a slightly larger rotor?

Call up Porterfield and they should be able to get you racing pads. I normally go through Topbrakes they stock portfield r4 and hawk blue. I'm sure Porterfield can make r4e too. If you went to the rs camaro brakes (your already use the same pages as the later v6 camero atleast) you will probably get just about any pads already made and ready to ship out.

OnkelUdo
05-07-2015, 06:09 PM
Ended up just ordering Carbotech XP8's for the brakes we have.

On the suspension side I think I found a compatible shock for the rear with 2" less length and 1.5" less stroke that uses (essentially) the same top and bottom connection. It is out of a crapload of 1985-1995 Mercedes sedans and coupes.

Still working on the front but a 1995-1999 Neon strut is looking promising (have to take some measurements at the PnP). It is the same body style and as long as knuckle flange opening is wide enough we can weld up bigger flanges. It is about 2" shorter and 1.25" less stroke. We will have to get creative on the spring but we can start with the stock Neon spring and move up from there (or do a coil-over conversion).

OnkelUdo
05-16-2015, 11:14 PM
Short fuse on this one so any answers appreciated. The KYB 234019 Excel-G shows only compatible with the Trans Sport through 1993. We are looking for ANY upgrade from the Monroe for our psuedo coil-over conversion but ours is a 1995. Will it work? Will it work with a strut bearing from a 1993?

Our suspension guru thinks the solution is to use 3" "Stock Car" springs and by his description, I agree.

The rear is now dropped 2" from stock (3" from race weight) and it is honestly about right but the truth is in the driving.

lemons bob
05-19-2015, 06:50 PM
Short fuse on this one so any answers appreciated. The KYB 234019 Excel-G shows only compatible with the Trans Sport through 1993. We are looking for ANY upgrade from the Monroe for our psuedo coil-over conversion but ours is a 1995. Will it work? Will it work with a strut bearing from a 1993?

Our suspension guru thinks the solution is to use 3" "Stock Car" springs and by his description, I agree.

The rear is now dropped 2" from stock (3" from race weight) and it is honestly about right but the truth is in the driving.

All the shock and struts I see on rock auto work from 90-96 or the whole run. 94 may have been when they changed the front brakes to the larger ones which have no bearing at all on the struts but maybe they never verified or something like that so they don't list it. Pretty sure its the same so a strut bearing from 93 is the strut bearing from 95.

OnkelUdo
06-08-2015, 05:34 PM
The Monroe "monotube" style struts ended up in front and we now have 500#/inch stock car springs, about 1.5" shorter than stock, on modified perches and mounts. It still looks high in the front but a measurement from the pinch weld to ground verifies that we are sitting almost dead level with the 1.5 coils cut off the rears.

The van really is coming together but lordy we need a test drive of all these mods.

Duke George V
06-10-2015, 12:36 AM
On this part, what do we gain exactly (still a GM newbie) over the "big brakes" that came on the 1995? I ask mostly because the enormous full-sized banana pads on the stock brakes have limited our pad selection (none of the Raybestos racing compounds are available). At least in the images on Amazon, these appear to be the same design so I am guessing the major difference would be a slightly larger rotor?

Sorry, I missed this. The Impala rotors are larger, so they can dissipate more heat when braking, and they share the 5 x 115 lug spacing with the van. The Camaro calipers are two piston instead of the single piston on the van, so you get more (and more even) clamping force. Also, you then have the whole selection of pads for the Camaro.

Old Gold
06-10-2015, 06:49 PM
Sorry, I missed this. The Impala rotors are larger, so they can dissipate more heat when braking, and they share the 5 x 115 lug spacing with the van. The Camaro calipers are two piston instead of the single piston on the van, so you get more (and more even) clamping force. Also, you then have the whole selection of pads for the Camaro.

Hey Duke, I'm a little confused here... If I understand it right, you're saying that '98-'02 2-piston (PBR-style) Camaro front brake calipers will bolt onto the newer (large brake) U-Van front knuckle? I know in the past, folks that were upgrading their earlier ('93-'97) Camaro single-piston front brakes to the larger, better ('98-'02) versions needed to swap out the front spindles from the '98-'02 as the caliper mounting abutments were completely different between the generations. I remember holding the parts together in the junkyard (a '01 Camaro front brake caliper, up to a '96 U-Van spindle and then to a '92-'97 Camaro spindle) and I couldn't see it happening without U-Van spindle modification (mainly grinding off the old caliper nub and an adapter bracket). Is there an aftermarket bracket (designed for a '93-'97 Camaro) available to do this? Just trying to straighten this out in my mind, because '98-'02 Camaro front brakes/calipers would be perfect for what I'm planning to do with my Celebrity and would go with the 11" rear '05 Uplander brakes I have, muhahaha. :)

Old Gold
06-10-2015, 07:00 PM
Here's a thread that shows this conversion on a Camaro. It looks like a conversion bracket was available from a guy named Ed Miller... Sorry to threadjack Onkeludo:

http://www.z28.com/threads/ls1-brake-upgrade-3rd-gen-walkthrough.124604/

By the way, a major CONGRATULATIONS!!! to your guys' team winning the Index of Effluence at Lemons. That's freakin' awesome and your guy's pit setup at Gingerman is 2nd-to-none! The Car and Driver articles are awesome too. "1st generation GoPro" :rofl:

Duke George V
06-11-2015, 03:48 AM
I will try to cobble everything together the next time I'm at a yard. The two that I go to usually have a decent selection of F-bodies.

OnkelUdo
06-19-2015, 12:25 PM
So we have a our ghetto-coilover conversion done and the rear springs cut down
Oil pan is baffled and has three extra ports for a future oil cooler on and electric pump
Extra set of headlights are installed and once I get them the last relay, we will have all 4 running both high and low beams all the time with each cluster fed by a dedicated 12 AWG feed
2/3rd's of the van is painted back to white for the new theme
We THINK all of our charging problems are solved after finding a broken wire between the solenoid and the alternator
All the race pads are in the calipers and new rotors installed

I am on the hunt for sway bar that can be adapted to the rear. We tried ordering the Adco but it was on infinite "pending" status. I am just going to comb all the FWD minivans and larger sedans in the PnP to see if any of them have something close to what we need but this is low priority.

Priority #1 is a "spirited" test drive to see if our suspension modification helped, hurt or accomplished nothing. We think we are going to need to slap shorter springs on it because with the 550#/inch stock car springs we have almost no sag. The lack of sag is good but the ride height has not drop as much as we desired. Going from 10" to 8.5" springs may be the answer.

vit
06-22-2015, 11:33 AM
303 mm the disc
17 wheel

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/15498/16411349.15/0_9966e_837dd179_XL.jpg

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/15568/16411349.15/0_9966f_ece5842_XL.jpg

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/16187/16411349.15/0_99670_a995f0c2_XL.jpg

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/17848/16411349.16/0_99671_180e9406_XL.jpg

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/16189/16411349.16/0_99675_139828b9_XL.jpg

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/15484/16411349.16/0_99674_8835813_XL.jpg

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/16132/16411349.16/0_99673_e3b30444_XL.jpg

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/15594/16411349.16/0_99672_1c857220_XL.jpg

vit
06-22-2015, 11:34 AM
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6720/16411349.a/0_826b6_f470d32b_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9302/16411349.a/0_826b7_470ff75c_XL.jpg

vit
06-22-2015, 11:36 AM
303 mm the disc
17 wheel
camaro

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9318/16411349.a/0_83694_d97df6a1_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9166/16411349.a/0_83693_7c8aacad_XL.jpg

vit
06-22-2015, 11:37 AM
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9555/16411349.a/0_8465c_6d1071bc_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9507/16411349.a/0_8465d_65d986db_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9346/16411349.a/0_8465e_d654f67e_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9511/16411349.a/0_8465f_7abaa23d_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9474/16411349.a/0_84660_8503fa3b_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9555/16411349.a/0_84661_3816b1ca_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9511/16411349.a/0_84662_ebbebef2_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9298/16411349.b/0_84663_d773985a_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9356/16411349.b/0_84664_6a9b088e_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9542/16411349.b/0_84665_969dfe41_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9261/16411349.b/0_84666_d1074f02_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9506/16411349.b/0_84667_a9048499_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9480/16411349.b/0_84668_adf513b9_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9584/16411349.b/0_84669_27d97495_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9301/16411349.b/0_8466a_da756ff5_XL.jpg

vit
06-22-2015, 11:39 AM
303mm vs 355 mm
18 wheel
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9252/16411349.b/0_861e0_77d11809_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9065/16411349.b/0_861e1_1f65b138_XL.jpg

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6721/16411349.b/0_861e3_97449745_XL.jpg

vit
06-22-2015, 11:41 AM
Sorry for my English

Old Gold
06-22-2015, 04:42 PM
Awesome Vit, that's some amazing work there! I can see that you're using Corvette C6(?) and Cadillac CTS-V brake calipers and what looks like an adapter bracket of your own manufacture, very cool! Nice work on the coil-overs as well, I like that you used pillow-ball top mounts. It's hard to beat that spherical bushing!

vit
06-23-2015, 09:09 PM
http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1403/58/5c3e8ad7574e.jpg
http://i056.radikal.ru/1403/9f/bd090d56f7a6.jpg

Old Gold
06-24-2015, 10:53 PM
Man 'o man Vit, you're taking the U-body suspension to the next level! Those are beautiful tubular control arms you've got there. Those will definetly take away a few pounds of unsprung weight! :D

lemons bob
06-27-2015, 12:38 AM
The transport made it into grassroots motorsport. You guys are now published and famous.

86euro
06-27-2015, 02:51 AM
All I can say is WOW! Any chances of these really cool parts being reproduced or is it a 1-time type thing?

OnkelUdo
07-06-2015, 08:34 PM
We have been famous a while...I mean Wally at least!

OnkelUdo
07-07-2015, 05:29 PM
So the van is ready to run except for nickel and nickel stuff (LeMons pun).

Got some 8" 650#/in springs that need to be installed and I need to fab up a couple of 1/2" spacers
Alternator was actually destroyed by the running without the proper reference voltage so we are replacing that
Couple of theme items to do
Load it up for the race!

Here is the current picture of the front. Still needs the appropriate license plate and Mercedes hood ornament.
50

vit
07-08-2015, 01:05 PM
That's how we are doing in Russia

http://www.auto-olds.ru/12/1430.jpg

http://www.auto-olds.ru/12/1429.jpg

vit
07-08-2015, 01:08 PM
53

lemons bob
07-08-2015, 02:45 PM
Not sure if I should start panicing yet.

Honestly we don't have much left to do either. Need to get some spare tires, oil change, and bed in the brakes plus a bunch of other minor things.

New Cheaty parts in to hopefully make the car less rolly and handle a bit better. Way to much left in the residual that we aren't going to use again.

Good news is that there was lots of life left in the pads after 14 hours so the new set should do pretty well.

OnkelUdo
07-28-2015, 01:06 PM
So a DIFFERENT U-Van won Class C and the IOE in the true 24 hours race. Great group of guys and the van was exceptional. He put the entire drivetrain from Pontiac GTP in there (series II supercharged and 5-speed manual) and it was fast!

Our van handled a million times better with only a single handling woe which was a bit of rocking chair effect over multiple bumps under braking (really only one corner). Without the long list of mechanical failures we could have reasonably been second in Class C.

We had multitudes of mechanical woes:

Failed front hub and/or axle (faster to swap as a unit from the part drive train)
Multiple brake failures...basically the heat was bending the pads so that there was only contact directly below the piston
Radiator cap failure
PS hose pinhole leak
Bad coil
Ball joint failure
And probably a few other things I forgot

Except for the PS hose most were easy to fix enough to get back on the track but the brake issue is just going to have to stop. We need something significantly better on the front. Research has begun but if anyone knows a multi-piston caliper option of any sort, let me know.

My fall-back at this point appears to be the 2005'ish Impala supercharged rotors and calipers or Park Ave Ultra supercharged. They add an inch in rotor diameter, use a less long pad but still about the same piston bore (unfortunately). Keep in mind, we need easy parts store availability of all braking components.

The list of stuff we need to do for reliability is long and arduous:

Oil pump and timing set
Oil cooler set-up
Front brake change...and I mean everything..I will not run another race with those calipers
Replace both PS hoses with new
Convert to standard 4-port MC with adjustable rear proportioning
Replace front suspension bushings (lower priority)
4 tires after we determine wheel size after final front brakes are determined
Crank position sensor (potential source of the intermittent low power and stalling)
Spark plugs
Coils..I vote new
Front hub bearings
Replace all the stuff we stole off the spare drivetrain

Duke George V
07-28-2015, 04:42 PM
As for the brakes, since you already have 16" wheels, use Camaro brakes. Get the caliper brackets from a 98-02 F-body at a yard if you can. Buy the calipers and pads new for a 98-02 F-body, and rotors for a 00-05 Impala.
From earlier in the thread. Camaro calipers are two piston.

lemons bob
07-29-2015, 04:42 PM
I also think getting rid of the steelies and finding a wheel that has a lot more open space will help in with the brake issues. Those steelies hold in a lot of heat. We found swapping to alero wheels up front greatly decreased the tempature of everything around the wheels in the front end.

OnkelUdo
07-29-2015, 05:59 PM
Yeah, sent that to the teammate and he has decided we need to go the corvette C5 caliper that is almost the same in design, slightly different shape, and an inch bigger to take advantage of the off-the-shelf high performance pads. As Bob said, we need to go to alloys on the front anyway and it looks like the 2005 Rendvous 17" wheels are the same bolt spacing and offset as our current 16" wheels.

lurker
08-01-2015, 04:16 AM
He put the entire drivetrain from Pontiac GTP in there (series II supercharged and 5-speed manual)
can you share anything more about this?

OnkelUdo
08-05-2015, 04:37 PM
Honestly...no. It was supercharged Series II with a five speed. No Idea how Dave did it or if it just a simple swap of a few van-specific items then drop it on the Van subframe. All I know if he was MUCH faster in a straight line that we were but at least one of our drivers could corner and out brake one of his drivers.

OnkelUdo
08-05-2015, 04:48 PM
First of the Buick Aztek...er, Rendezvous wheels arrive and my 17" tires should be in today. Also, the ENOURMOUS C5 calipers came in.

The best part of all this, we can finally run the only endurance racing compound NO ONE complains about on our front brakes...Raybestos ST43.

Also a crap load of sensors, coils, PS hoses, etc. We are pulling the subframe to take care of all the reliability-related items after the fiasco with both the coil and the PS hose.

OnkelUdo
08-30-2015, 10:13 AM
Sub frame is out of the car. We so found the cause(s) of the low oil pressure and just in time. The pressure release valve was stuck open but we also had a piece of metai in the oil pump that had done a number on the rotor and housing.

Crank was toast. I believe three mains and two rod bearings were showing scoring and lots of copper.

Rebuilt crank is in
Oil pump rebuilt
Motor 90% back together

Everything else is going VERY slowly.

C5 brake conversion is just a pain without proper machine tools.
The old MC cannot be used without the suspect ABS unit attached so we are hoping a pre-ABS MC just bolts up.

Radio issues are hopefully fixed...but that is about the only thing done end to end.

Part of the issue is that I have been otherwise distracted by getting a friend's house on the market while he is on assignment out of state and moving all his crap to his old home in AL. I did get this out of the deal...partially financed by these activities:
65
I am outfitting it to be an all-weather mobile HQ/bunkhouse for the team should we decide to do more distant races and because the Spring race is always in Michigan...in April...and mostly below freezing. Most of the outfitting is stuff I have lying around the house like 35K BTU propane heater, window AC, small generator and left over cabinets.

Babe, the disreputable blue ox of a truck, pulls it just fine as long as you are not in a hurry and even managed over 9 MPG for the 1000 mile trip. Still has me wanting a lower geared rear end (was supposed to be a 4.10 but spinning the drive shaft revealed a 3.48).

OnkelUdo
09-28-2015, 07:32 PM
Ready to race for the last race of the season.

C5 brake conversion...check
Replaced all internal bearings, oil pump, sensors (crank and cam) PS hoses, etc...check
Repaired rust on the driver front sub frame mount enough to tighten the bolt...check
Painted the whole thing safety orange...check

We are hoping to be reliable this race and maybe even somewhat competitive in class C.

Here

lemons bob
09-29-2015, 08:32 PM
Ready to race for the last race of the season.

C5 brake conversion...check
Replaced all internal bearings, oil pump, sensors (crank and cam) PS hoses, etc...check
Repaired rust on the driver front sub frame mount enough to tighten the bolt...check
Painted the whole thing safety orange...check

We are hoping to be reliable this race and maybe even somewhat competitive in class C.

Here

Weren't you 2nd or 3rd last race in C? Morrow pretty much ran away with it, even so I think you were pretty competitive with the c class teams.

I'll be driving with the team Tsog is driving with, as long as we finish getting it together.(yesterday was the first time I saw the car and it doesn't seem that far from getting ready but one of the other guys is a bit nervous) It was brought up whether we are pitting with you guys so wally doesn't need to travel far for his snacks.

OnkelUdo
10-05-2015, 02:41 PM
No...we were about mid-pack for class see due to many hours down for repairs. Some if due to needing parts when no parts stores were open but a lot was just crappy design, old parts, etc.

OnkelUdo
10-06-2015, 08:40 PM
And we are internet famous again...this time for beating an F-body which is rarely that hard (save the TaTa's excluded)

http://www.roadkill.com/lemons-pontiac-grudge-match-trans-sport-vs-trans/

Duke George V
10-06-2015, 09:16 PM
Lookin' good. Any plans to address your blazing hot brakes? Some ducting couldn't hurt.

Also, how is the transmission holding up? Keeping the 4T60E cool is a big deal in the vans, since they're a lot heavier than the cars.

lemons bob
10-07-2015, 08:12 PM
I believe he running some front brakes that came off a corvette so much bigger, also he I believe have some alloy wheels which should have a lot more open space to allow heat to escape. Steelies tend to just hold in all the heat and slowly roast everything.

OnkelUdo
10-08-2015, 01:02 AM
I believe he running some front brakes that came off a corvette so much bigger, also he I believe have some alloy wheels which should have a lot more open space to allow heat to escape. Steelies tend to just hold in all the heat and slowly roast everything.

Yep, Corvette C5 brakes and 17" alloys off the only Uplander sold with 17" 5-lug alloys. Oh, and one 2005 Buick Rendevous 17" alloy because the Uplander only had three wheels at the PnP and I suspect its offroad adventure had torn off the fourth.

OnkelUdo
10-08-2015, 01:05 AM
We re-purposed the AC condesor as a tranny cooler so that has so far not been an issue. With our third electric fan we arwee running about 225 F at the July race. It could spike to 245 but even that is within realistic tolerance.

OnkelUdo
10-12-2015, 06:55 PM
We re-purposed the AC condesor as a tranny cooler so that has so far not been an issue. With our third electric fan we arwee running about 225 F at the July race. It could spike to 245 but even that is within realistic tolerance.

Well, I spoke too soon on this. We have a multitude of little issues this race and the tranny was one of them. No issues in the test drives prior to loading it on the trailer. After unloading at the track and taking a spin around the paddock it was not making the 1-2 shift until bouncing off the rev limiter unless you feathered the throttle just right and it would often grab neutral between the 2-3 shift. On the track it would get massively confused as we exited a turn and went from partial to full throttle. Some turns it would bang from 3 down to first and others it would go from second to OD...other times if would shift relatively normally.

We got through the weekend by pulling the vac line to the modulator but this was not a fix...just made it slightly less erratic. We need to figure this one out if possible but the solenoids ohm'ed out correctly. Automatic transmissions are voodoo to me.

It also would not start from dead cold without voodoo being employed.

AC pulley bearing shelled itself.

The brakes worked amazingly well.

The tires were a nightmare (out of date and we did not notice) and we destroyed another driver side axle and passenger front hub.

Duke George V
10-12-2015, 10:42 PM
245F is pretty high for transmission fluid. You may have cooked it. I would service the unit, and put in a bunch of Lucas trans fix, like at least two quarts, and see if that helps. It couldn't hurt at this point, really.

lemons bob
10-13-2015, 07:27 PM
245F is pretty high for transmission fluid. You may have cooked it. I would service the unit, and put in a bunch of Lucas trans fix, like at least two quarts, and see if that helps. It couldn't hurt at this point, really.

Really depends on what he is using. In the Ciera I have been using MobileOne synthetic transfluid, and 240 is well within its operating temp.

I am kind of disappointed that I will never know how the NobleSport tires you got would have worked.

Now with the half shafts are you splitting the boots apart? I think it was the Binford guys that used to run the beretta told me they had that issue after lowering it. They said lowering it messed with the angles and the boots would flex too much and rip, their fix was to wrapp the boots with some rope and than glue the rope to the boots. It would firm it up a bit and help hold it together but still allow it to flex.

for the trans I don't know. The Monte Carlo showed me that 4 speed automatics are dumb and that I much prefer my 3 speed on the track.(once you hit 60 there is no way to get that stupid thing to kick back down a gear causing us to really slowly accelerate when taking corners 3,4,5 properly. Not my car and running hot so didn't just toss it in 3rd for half the course) Also learned that anti-lock brakes are really annoying.

OnkelUdo
10-14-2015, 01:17 PM
The fluid itself is surviving quite well. No indications of burning or breakdown. It is possible that the internal components of the tranny cannot handle the heat, though. It is also just as possible it is older, moderately high mileage tranny.

The failure between test drive and no other activities but driving it on and off the trailer is what stumps me. I am still hoping it is electrical due to us pulling the sub frame again recently.

OnkelUdo
10-14-2015, 01:24 PM
I am kind of disappointed that I will never know how the NobleSport tires you got would have worked.

Now with the half shafts are you splitting the boots apart?

for the trans I don't know. The Monte Carlo showed me that 4 speed automatics are dumb and that I much prefer my 3 speed on the track.(once you hit 60 there is no way to get that stupid thing to kick back down a gear causing us to really slowly accelerate when taking corners 3,4,5 properly. Not my car and running hot so didn't just toss it in 3rd for half the course) Also learned that anti-lock brakes are really annoying.
The NobleSports will remain our back ups...some day they will likely see emergency duty.

The boots are usually staying intact but the CV's are failing. We had the same issue on the Saturn just not as frequent.

Our tranny actually shifted up and down much better than I expected until this race. It was not as firm or decisive as the AW70 in my Volvo but much better than a lot of modern'ish slushboxes.

When they worked, the antilock brakes were great for keeping the rears from locking up and flat spotting. Now with 2000% more brake up front, that issue is gone but we have the distinct possibility of locking the fronts inadvertently.

OnkelUdo
10-15-2015, 05:26 PM
The no start issue is solved. The shredding belt from the seized AC pulley sent twisted threads and junk into the crank position sensor. Both the harmonic balancer and the sensor were damaged.

OnkelUdo
10-26-2015, 11:15 AM
This is our call for help on the 4T60E issue we are having as posted on the LeMons board. Would appreciate any advise from this crew as well.

"Guys, the Dustbuster has an issue (beyond the obvious). Race one and two the transmission ran as flawlessly as a mid-1990's GM FWD automatic can be expected to. It would rev to just short of red line at WoT and rarely missed a shift in general.

After pulling the subframe to fix a multitude of engine related issue, repair some structural rust, etc., it now shifts like it is drunk or at least has ADD. Last race was an exercise in patience. It rev's until it bounces off the rev limiter if you do not feather the throttle and often the upshifts either find a false neutral or pause before engaging. Downshifts hesitate end then seem to slam into gear...often a lower gear than normal.

So we did the official GM pressure test and everything passes. We ohm'ed out the the shift solenoids and they all are well within spec's. Apparently doing the latter requires snipping and splicing the wires back together which had already been done in the past. Additionally, I found a check valve in the vacuum modulator line that cannot possibly be factory but was non-functional as a check valve.

We are torn. I think it is electrical (due to the sudden onset), my token engineer was thinking a fluid pressure issue until the test and our most practical mechanic thinks it is the clutches.

Last point. I doubt it is related but in the same period we had a starting issue that absolutely was electrical. In the end it appears the crank sensor was the cause but we did not know this until well after.

Primary concern is not that we "need" to replace the tranny it is that if we replace the tranny will it:
a) Fix the issue
b) Will the higher temps we are seeing for the fluid (225 sustained...rare spike to 245) kill components even thought fluid itself is not breaking down (token engineer swears it is fine...and that is his specialty)...we already have a massive cooler.
c) If electrical will we just be chasing the same problem

Thanks for any input."

Jr's3800
10-31-2015, 08:53 PM
You sound a lot like you are describing a failing TPS.. A TPS that gets out of whack can cause the PCM to send the 60E all over the board.. It can cause it to go from 2nd to Overdrive with you foot almost on the floor board.. As well it could cause an unexpected downshift.. Also make sure the PCM is not seeing an oddball P1361 code, sometimes the 94/95 PCM could get funky and not completely fail..

On the fluid temps, My thoughts are that 240F is just too hot.. I have heard from pros that was acceptable to have a trans running at 240F.... Funny that a GM PCM will throw it into limp home at 260F... Optimum fluid temp for a trans is in the 160F area... I would think that even with the Condenser being used as a trans cooler the trans could run cooler, but how much flow are you getting through it is my question.

My 95 Bonneville has the exact same Trans with the same gear ratio.. I added an RV + 7000 Lb cooler many moons ago.. Its at 213,000ish and still shifts like a charm, fluid is still red.. It has an adjustable modulator and shifts quick even at 6000 Rpms( 60-E's don't like much more than 6000 Rpms due to the 9 vane pump ) I have never seen 200F with the cooler... I run 160-180F on a blazing hot day.. But I have never raced it full on like your van.. I'd say the closed you can keep it to 160F the better..

Do check out that TPS to see if its performing as it should with no sudden drops in voltage or throttle angle..

lemons bob
11-02-2015, 03:55 PM
oh you forgot to put the coversheet on it didn't you

http://lenderperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/tps-reports-coversheets-800x450.jpg

Let me send you a copy of the memo

OnkelUdo
11-02-2015, 04:25 PM
Most of what you say makes perfect sense in particular the TPS (we have had problems with it before but replaced it). This is the one I struggle with:

"Optimum fluid temp for a trans is in the 160F area." The reason this one does not play well for me is the dual coolers in the radiator and standard thermostat temp of 195. This means GM is encouraging the transmission temp to be in the 195 range and a little hotter once up to temp on a warm day.

Our engineer ordered a used J-box off Ebay so we will be testing while driving soon.

lemons bob
11-02-2015, 06:53 PM
Well thats GM engineering. I'm sure its assuming that the water in the radiator would be below that of the engine so it wouldn't be 195 typically.

Are you still going through the radiator? With the condenser as a cooler you may actually be putting heat back into the fluid after cooling it depending on what your engine temps are.

OnkelUdo
11-02-2015, 07:47 PM
I guess one tank might be lower than engine coolant temp but the other would not be.

We bypassed the in-radiator cooler for many, many reasons. The biggest on is if we ever had the change a radiator due to damage from flying pistons, connecting rods, power ranger heads or deer, etc, getting all those fittings loose track-side would have been...um, challenging with a hot motor.

OnkelUdo
11-05-2015, 12:09 PM
Might go to look at a COLLECTION of partially functional U-Vans this Sunday. Long story but basically a slightly off-center guy bought every one of them that came up for sale at a low enough price and planned to make 3 running ones out of the 8-10 vans he has. His brother is now selling off his "estate" which also includes an enclosed trailer made from the back half of one of the vans...and the front half-cut.

We already have a spare sub frame with everything on it functional when pulled. It is obvious that there is a strong chance we need a new tranny and from what I understand the variations of the 4T60E are numerous. To complicate things more, we have the transitional year 1995 for both sub frames. So is completely a crap shoot on whether earlier, over even same year, 4T60E's from a U-body will fit (from my understanding) our axle spline count? Rock auto shows the same part number for a left and right drive shafts regardless of year as long as it has the 3800/4T60E.

Anyone need UVan parts? From the guy's description all but the front half-cut have one of the following problems: Bad engine, bad transmission or rusted sub frame.

Jr's3800
11-05-2015, 01:10 PM
Any 94-97 lesabre, olds 88 or Bonneville trans will work as well.. the 96-97 trans will have a carbon woven clutch torque converter opposed to a low carbon clutch in the 94-95.. so you do have options..

Duke George V
11-05-2015, 11:41 PM
'96 is gonna be one-year-only for a lot of things. I believe the 94 and 95s have the same transmission, as far as internal wiring goes.

If you're willing to dig that far, I would like a '96 throttle body with cables. I'm gonna need one for my '96 wagon when I do the 3500 swap.

OnkelUdo
11-09-2015, 05:41 PM
The J-box test revealed what we already knew in our heart of hearts...the tranny is slipping. No obvious electrical faults but it responded to manual inputs from the box about the same way it acted on the track. Known good tranny it is...and potentially rebuild this one better clutches, a shift kit and maybe a few other things I can't remember from some of the W body guys.

lemons bob
11-10-2015, 08:50 PM
how many miles on it before racing. Sometimes age just catches up to you.

OnkelUdo
11-11-2015, 11:54 AM
The age of the tranny in vehicle is unknown as it was a junkyard replacement based on all the paint-pen markings.

Just reading up on the 4T60E makes me believe we killed it with prolonged heat. The basic design and age may have been what was causing that heat (inherent slippage and no indication it was ever locking up). Better clutches and a shift kit (plus maybe improved valve bodies) could partially solve all of this. A good job for out resident retiree.

lemons bob
11-12-2015, 06:01 PM
I guess that is why I've always felt I'm lucky with the old th125c. Its pretty basic so it doesn't seem to have as many issues. A couple race back an arrive and drive was trying to get us to tell him the secrets of our trans since it shifted so much better than some guy he knew who did every tweek you can find to do in some fiero project he was working. The we changed the fluid and filter once, didn't seem to satisfy him.

OnkelUdo
11-14-2015, 11:37 PM
We have another parts van. No picure because I was too lazy to download from our team facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/BadDecisionsRacing.

It is a 1993 Tansport with another 1993 drivetrain in the back. Engine in back broke the plastic coolant fitting and died...undiagnosed...but should have a good tranny. Interior is rough and exterior has lots of paint and clearcoat issue but no damage.

We plan to swap the harnesses from our blown tranny to the spare tranny and see how it does (1993 with the 6-pin harness...we need the 7-pin). If good, might refurb the van with some of our non-race spares and sell...does not run but likely just a crank or cam sensor.

This guy has I think a total of eight more. I have seen 6...and a half. All 3800's...all with issues from blown trans to blown motor to rusted out sub-frame...front or rear.

lemons bob
11-18-2015, 09:25 PM
It is a 1993 Tansport with another 1993 drivetrain in the back.

I keep wanting that to mean that it is a dual engine awd Transport.

OnkelUdo
11-19-2015, 12:15 AM
I keep wanting that to mean that it is a dual engine awd Transport.

Once we have a fuel cell, have done both the hotwheels pickup and convertible people carrier theme...your wish will be granted.

Duke George V
11-19-2015, 02:17 AM
Once we have a fuel cell, have done both the hotwheels pickup and convertible people carrier theme...your wish will be granted.

Yeeeeesssssssss

lemons bob
11-19-2015, 01:55 PM
I also see with how much easier it will probably be to work on the rear engine as opposed to the front, eventually you will decide not to fix the front engine and just leave it out of the van.

OnkelUdo
11-19-2015, 02:32 PM
This is of course assuming we do not put an iron duke in the front just for good measure...

OnkelUdo
12-06-2015, 12:21 AM
The green van is running and driving and mostly ready for sale. The transmission harness has to be re-pinned (we re-pinned the spare J-box cord to test). It won't shift without being manually shifted and starts in third. It will not engage OD at all. We suspect a damaged solenoid or internal wiring fault but it is not worth pull the side cover to check.

Other than that, the brakes pulsate badly probably from rusting unevenly while sitting.

Number 666 race van is ready to go. We managed all the small punchlist items today. Theme is all that remains.

OnkelUdo
07-10-2016, 10:33 PM
Long time since I posted because I honestly forgot which user name I had here.

Racevan is now a manual transmission. I completely changes the character on the the character on the track. So much so that we are actually pushing for a class C win at Joliet in two weeks.

Duke George V
07-11-2016, 05:44 AM
Racevan is now a manual transmission. I completely changes the character on the the character on the track. So much so that we are actually pushing for a class C win at Joliet in two weeks.
http://i.imgur.com/cEstc1e.gif

We are definitely going to need a write-up for this.

OnkelUdo
07-11-2016, 12:17 PM
http://i.imgur.com/cEstc1e.gif

We are definitely going to need a write-up for this.

Most of the research work is actually done for us by the Fiero folks but there was one very specific U-van difference:

Tranny out of an early 2000's Cavalier VIN code 4
Flywheel out of a 3800 Camaro cut .25" and rebalanced
Passenger axle moves to the drivers side
New Passenger axle is the inner CV and shaft from an 80's Fiero manual transmission with the outer CV from I think 2002 Bonneville with the 3800
Shift cable bracket has to be modified to clear the exhaust
Custom tranny and engine mount fabricated from scrap and generic hockey-puck tranny mounts
Put the shift selection in neutral and lock it there
Mount the Cavalier pedal and master cylinder to the firewall after shortening it about 4" and cutting of most of the left side of the brake pedal off

Up here, the hard part was finding a Cavalier in the right year range with the 2.2 and manual. The tranny we finally got had over 200K miles on it and suffers from a (not uncommon) crunchy 3-4 syncro. Honestly, it is not much of an issue at the two tracks we have run it so far because in 3'rd we have to contend with inside wheel spin so even the slower corners, we just leave it in fourth. Even the speedometer is almost perfectly accurate with our race tires (225/45-R17).

lemons bob
07-16-2016, 01:31 PM
New Passenger axle is the inner CV and shaft from an 80's Fiero manual transmission with the outer CV from I think 2002 Bonneville with the 3800


I hope you have a spare of the custom cv built and ready. I remember hearing from the guys with the binford berretta that had half berretta half alero half shafts (so they didn't have to use the dreaded 5x100 hubs) that they would destroy atleast one a race weekened and have to drive around to multiple stores to get the 2 half shafts they needed to build what the half shaft they were using, atleast they did until they brought a spare and then everything was fine.

OnkelUdo
07-18-2016, 05:09 PM
You have met me, right. We had a second set built before we had even street driven the conversion!

Te stock axle swapped to the other side is actually of slightly great concern as it is technically too short at full suspension droop but that only even happens when it is jacked up.

OnkelUdo
07-27-2016, 01:24 AM
You have met me, right. We had a second set built before we had even street driven the conversion!

The stock axle swapped to the other side is actually of slightly great concern as it is technically too short at full suspension droop but that only even happens when it is jacked up.

And when the gloriously reliable getrag F23 munched a mainshaft bearing, back in went the spare subframe with the 4T60E...yeah, swapping a subframe, on grass in 95 f 90% humidity weather was lots of fun. We got the "Heroic Fix" for running a manual on Saturday and an auto on Sunday.

F-it...building out the 1948 Plytmouth and leaving the constantly confused 4T60E swapped U-van as our back-up car. What can honestly go wrong with an L-head 6 3-speed made 26 years before I was born.

Duke George V
07-28-2016, 11:11 PM
This is probably a dumb question, but did you shift the auto manually? In all but the fastest sections of any track, you could probably leave the shifter in 2 and not worry about it. If you hit a straight that you need to go faster than, say, 75 on, bump it up to third. I think that's what the guys who are/were running the Cutlass Ciera did.

OnkelUdo
07-29-2016, 01:42 AM
This is probably a dumb question, but did you shift the auto manually? In all but the fastest sections of any track, you could probably leave the shifter in 2 and not worry about it. If you hit a straight that you need to go faster than, say, 75 on, bump it up to third. I think that's what the guys who are/were running the Cutlass Ciera did.
They run a non-computer controlled tranny.

The problem is you can't, unless we change to a push button shift, run in 2nd and manually shift. There is so much going on when you need 3rd (twice per lap...lap takes 2 minutes) that the imprecise action of the column shifter is not an option. Even if we leave it in second, the tranny feels compelled to find a false neutral when we nail it thinking we want first.

We will build a another manual (internals are easy to find) but right now...just massively disillusioned.

lemons bob
07-29-2016, 04:16 PM
This is probably a dumb question, but did you shift the auto manually? In all but the fastest sections of any track, you could probably leave the shifter in 2 and not worry about it. If you hit a straight that you need to go faster than, say, 75 on, bump it up to third. I think that's what the guys who are/were running the Cutlass Ciera did.

Actually we always left it in D and never manually shifted. even with the 3 speed we also needed 3rd atleast twice a lap, and I wouldn't want to chance someone screwing up and going into the wrong gear, plus being endurance racing I'm fine with not always being towards the upper rpm. I know we would run some sections in 3rd at autobahn in 3rd by just not flooring and go pretty much as fast if not faster while being easier on the engine.

OnkelUdo
08-15-2016, 06:39 PM
Literally stumbled over another F23 manual tranny with the right bellhousing pattern Sunday at the PnP. Had not choice but to pull it. 4 of us in different parts of Midwest search all the self-service yards for months and did not find one last time...I had to make a 7 hours round trip to the middle of Michigan to grab one. This one was second Cavalier I passed when looking for parts for a totally different car.

Going to have our chief mechanic disassemble this one and check it out but likely will not have it in for the October race. Just too many things to do.

lemons bob
08-17-2016, 07:58 PM
Saw someone selling an ste 3 speed. You can stick that in and make and AWD Racevan.

OnkelUdo
08-19-2016, 11:56 AM
If we do that, we will just put the auto subframe up front and the manual one in back...what could possibly go wrong?