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Transmission swap about to start - 440T4 > 4T65E

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    Transmission swap about to start - 440T4 > 4T65E

    I think I may have all the pieces for the 440T4 > 4T65E transmission swap!!!

    Have the transmission (it's a guaranteed-good core), CV shafts, all brackets and wiring connectors. Just got the transmission ECU, PROM code, and ECU wiring harness connectors. I was concerned because the part number on the ECU is not what is shown on the documentation for TunerCat. I will have to use TunerCat to adjust the parameters in the ECU since it was originally for a diesel pickup truck and the shift points and gear ratio calibrations are all wrong for a 4T65E. I hooked it up on the bench, just to a power supply, "Check Trans" lamp, and scan tool. ECU is at least capable of booting up, flashing the lamp, and communicating with a scan tool. That means the PROM code (that works with TunerCat) does run on this ECU.

    The reason I have chosen this ECU is because it is totally independent of the engine ECM. It will share the throttle position signal since my car already has a TPS. On a carburetor car, you could mount the TPS remotely and have the carb linkage actuate it. Other than knowing throttle position, all the other sensors and outputs for the transmission ECU are internal to the transmission. When I get this done, I hope others can benefit from it as well. There are a load of late-model electronic transmissions out there that could be used in older cars. There are already some very expensive transmission ECU's made by aftermarket companies that are better for performance, but this one cost less than $120 as a reman from a local parts store. I am trying to keep with the spirit of only buying something I can't fabricate, salvage, or get as a stock spare part.

    There are some differences in the logic used in the 4L80 and 4T65 transmissions. The shift A/B signals can be adapted by inverting the shift B signal with a relay. The pressure switches are more different. I will have to experiment with those signals to determine what will have to be done there. One option is to build a microcontroller-based box that will translate the switch signals and give the ECU exactly what it expects. but I want to do this without building any custom electronics. That way if someone else wants to use my "recipe" it will be possible without any really advanced electronics knowledge. The pressure switches may be able to be remapped in the PROM code.

    Well - got to to clean the workbench off and teardown that transmission!

    Later,
    David

    Look me up on Facebook

    #2
    Would love more info when you get to the part of installing it. MY TGP tranny, 440T4 is going out, and needs a replacement. My problem is I still want the car to be trackable, and I want to be able to adjust the shift points to better keep the turbo and motor in its peak power band.
    Brian - Carpe Diem

    I dont have to love my president, or any god, to love my country!!
    More people have died in the name of "God" than in all wars combined thruout history
    01 Pontiac Aztek GT AWD 127k - 04 GMC Envoy SLT XUV 193k

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      #3
      Originally posted by Pontiac6ksteawd View Post
      Would love more info when you get to the part of installing it. MY TGP tranny, 440T4 is going out, and needs a replacement. My problem is I still want the car to be trackable, and I want to be able to adjust the shift points to better keep the turbo and motor in its peak power band.
      With an emulator, this ECU is real-time adjustable.

      The calibration has "normal" and "performance" settings but my wiring diagram does not show where to hook the switch to the ECU. Will have to research that.

      If it shows the status of the normal / perf mode in the scan data, I can play with the unused inputs and determine which input operates it.

      David

      Look me up on Facebook

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        #4
        So you are saying you can set it up to shift, at say 4500 RPM under perf mode, and then at 5500 for normal? Or is a setting of perf and norm just a slight modification for the Norm tune, to change the shift points to change earlier, and slightly later..

        Am I making sense?
        Brian - Carpe Diem

        I dont have to love my president, or any god, to love my country!!
        More people have died in the name of "God" than in all wars combined thruout history
        01 Pontiac Aztek GT AWD 127k - 04 GMC Envoy SLT XUV 193k

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          #5
          Two totally separate tables:



          As you can see, the stock settings for the truck are still in "normal mode" table, and the "perf mode" table does not have any usable values set into it.

          There are also separate tables for the line pressures for norm and perf mode. The calibration program calles it norm and perf, but I bet in the truck, the actual switch would be labelled "Tow/haul."

          This is all new to me - I will be learning as I go on this job.

          I just got the transmission dismantled, and the good news is NO CARNAGE to be found! Lucked out on this core. We figured it was a good transmission, but the salvage yard proprietor did not know the reason the owner had sold him the car. It was hauled in not running and the wiring had been butchered. Looked like some monkeys who thought they knew how to fix a car had worked on it. With no knowlege or skills they continued to do more and more damage until the car was financially not feasible to repair. So they junked it.

          There may still be an unknown condition L67 Supercharged 3800 engine there. I got the trans only. Engine was complete except for a monkeyed-up wiring harness.

          The only slight damage was some burning on the 4th clutch, wear on the 4th clutch hub splines, and moderate burning on the second gear clutch. Pretty good for an 11 year old transmission, that has been used with a supercharged engine.

          I'm going to replace the piston seals on all clutches and change that shaft and the clutch plates while it is apart. Should get parts early next week. It's a new enough transmission I bet I can get the parts in town, if not overnight.

          Took some pictures of the teardown, but camera battery died. Will have to charge that before I download the pictures.

          Later!
          David

          Look me up on Facebook

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            #6
            So what you're saying is I could use a controller from a diesel truck to control a 4L80E in my old body style Suburban? I realize the 4L80E was used in that body style in '91 only, but those trucks are like hen's teeth.
            -Andy

            '86 Eurosport VR coupe
            '86 Eurosport sedan
            '88 Eurosport VR coupe
            '89 Eurosport wagon

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              #7
              Yes absolutely. It was designed originally for a 4L80E. Would be plug and play on the elelctical side, but might need some shift point changes to work with a higher-revving gas engine, since the only factory calibration was for a diesel.

              That would be alot easier than what I am attempting because the wiring and pressure switches would be compatible without any special considerations.

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                #8
                along the lines of whatg 86 said i can use a controller form a truck to use a a stand alone on a 4l80E should i add one to a say 73 skylark

                Originally posted by LordDurock
                most great ideas will lose the original luster and wonder of their profound expression, when subject to the masses, for all ideas are building blocks on the greater truth, not the whole truth
                82 Buick Century 4.3lt diesel
                00 VW jetta 2.0
                00 vw beetle 1.9 TDI

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                  #9
                  Got the transmission partially dismantled yesterday. Still have to break down the clutch packs to change the piston seals but don't want to take them apart until I have the new parts on-hand.

                  Got it all cleaned up with the old diesel burning pressure washer. To quote a friend "I don't wash it until it is 'clean,' I wash it until it is TOO HOT TO TOUCH!" The openings are covered up mainly to keep dirt and grit out. A little water will not hurt but if the pressure washer blasts grit and dirt into the transmission it can cause more damage. The dirt can cause scratching and scoring as the parts are dismantled, or cause parts to seize in place and be impossible to dismamtle without breakage.




                  Took off all the external parts:


                  Then took off the structural side cover to get to the valve body and other internal parts:


                  After the wiring harness comes off, then the charge pump can be removed. Here is an explanation of how the pump can change its output without bypassing any oil back to the sump. It is very efficient and produces much less heat this way. The shift firmness is controlled by how much pressure this pump is making. As engine load changes, the transmission charge pressure has to change, too.


                  Valvebody looks is great shape:


                  I will try to adapt a 440T4 single-wide-chain to this unit if I can. Have read that the dual chain is quieter but there have been breakages.


                  Don't like the looks of that black oil - could indicate internal carnage...


                  Since this came from supercharged application it has the factory HD final drive. This will be shipped off to be converted to limited slip...


                  Here is a sign of damage. The clutch plates in the second clutch are burned. This happend for one reason only - the clutch slipped for too long and the clutch plates overheated. Could be due to low trans oil leverl, excessive engine power, bad piston seals, or ECU calibration error. The overall color of the friction material does not mean the clutch is bad. The bands of charred material do mean there is damage, as well as the heat damage to the steel plates. This clutch would have still worked for a long time as it is in a normal application, but I want to start fresh since it is already apart...


                  All parts cleaned up and put in a box to keep clean. The plastic tray with compartments holds the hardware. Re-assembling the transmission, the hardware will go back in in reverse order from how it was put in the tray. Each compartment should have ALL its contents back in the transmission before anything is removed from the next compartment. Saves making any assmebly errors. If I had to take apart the valvebody I would put the contents of each bore in a separate compartment, along with a piece of paper that might have notes about the valve lineup.


                  My work area. Not the most ideal but for occasional trans repairs it is not bad!


                  Hope to have all the parts this week, and may get the transmission back together. Probably will not have time to get the swap done for a month or so.

                  Got the trans ECU and did some preliminary testing. There was some confusion as to wether this was the correct ECU to use with the calibration editor program. Apparently it is. It will flash codes and communicate to a scan tool.



                  Later!
                  David

                  Look me up on Facebook

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by LordDurock View Post
                    along the lines of whatg 86 said i can use a controller form a truck to use a a stand alone on a 4l80E should i add one to a say 73 skylark
                    Yes that is correct. This is new to me and I don't know how tricky it will be to calibrate the shift points for a factory-like feel. I know the diesel truck chift points are not good for a gas engine car.

                    To wire the 4L80E the wiring appears to be very simple. The controller I used was originally built for a 4L80E.

                    Don't forget, unless you have 4WD with transfer-case mounted speedometer cable, you will loose the speedometer cable.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by turbokinetic View Post
                      Don't forget, unless you have 4WD with transfer-case mounted speedometer cable, you will loose the speedometer cable.
                      I thought there were some early 90's vans that used the 4L80E and a cable driven speedo.
                      -Andy

                      '86 Eurosport VR coupe
                      '86 Eurosport sedan
                      '88 Eurosport VR coupe
                      '89 Eurosport wagon

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by 86euro View Post
                        I thought there were some early 90's vans that used the 4L80E and a cable driven speedo.
                        There could be - I don't work on many of that type vehicle.

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                          #13
                          Looks like you got a pre-'99 4T65, I wish I would have know that they removed the rear mounting bosses in '99+ 4T65s because then I wouldn't have had to make an adapter plate for the rear trans mount. Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the single chain conversions sold by aftermarket companies is just a 4T60 chain with some machining to mount the input speed reluctor ring. Also, I would replace the input shaft right away as well or else this may happen...

                          1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera International --> L67 - M90 + 60-1 =

                          Yes it's an Oldsmobile and yes it makes over 450 HP!!

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by skalor View Post
                            .... Also, I would replace the input shaft right away as well or else this may happen... <shows broken off input shaft>
                            Yep I have already ordered that exact ZZP shaft, as well as an output shaft and 4th clutch hub.

                            Going to have some spare 440T4 sprockets machined. Beleive i can do that for less than what ZZP is asking. Same guy who did my cam can do that simple mod.

                            Trans did come from a 97 Riviera Supercahrged.

                            David

                            Look me up on Facebook

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                              #15
                              Interesting, very very interesting....
                              Brian - Carpe Diem

                              I dont have to love my president, or any god, to love my country!!
                              More people have died in the name of "God" than in all wars combined thruout history
                              01 Pontiac Aztek GT AWD 127k - 04 GMC Envoy SLT XUV 193k

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