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Hard Starting?

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    Hard Starting?

    My 80 Citation V6 did this 3 times. It didn't do it 4 years ago:

    The starter spins fast cold, starts right up usually; sometimes needs couple tries and starting fluid. (Gas is old).
    Then after 10 minutes warm up, I try it again. Now the starter barely turns: RRR---rrr---rrrrr... It sounds like it's killing the battery, like something dragging.

    Facts: Old battery OK. But I bought a new one in late January, still does this.
    Battery proper size for car,. Was tempted to get marine battery but car needed mods to get it to fit.
    Alternator rebuilt 4 years ago, it had no problems but I checked it anyway. It puts out 14.3 VDC at fast idle,
    brites on.
    Starter was working but I rebuilt it anyway 4 years ago.
    Battery cables good but I redid them recently. They are proper length, gauge.
    Terminals good, Marine bronze w/stainless hardware.
    Car sat 4 years, so only a few miles on it since the rebuilt starter/alternator.
    It runs good on the road and highway. Seems to have good compression.
    Replaced bearings 4 years ago when I replaced a seal. All mains showed scuffing like overheating once , said the
    parts store. All bearings in spec by PlastiGauge, changed 'em anyway.
    Cylinders still showed honing makes. pistons seemed free.
    Car has never been overheated while I owned it. Flushed rad/block, new hoses/belts, new used heater core
    (leaked); new thermostat (it was old but free.). Radiator cap good. Fan and switch/relay all working. Water
    pump ok. No coolant leaks as of 4 years ago, or now.
    Regular oil changes, oil pressure fine by aftermarket gauges. Proper weight of oil, too.
    I changed oil when I bought it. Changed it when I returned 4 years later, too.
    It did this in 48 degree weather, even 75 degrees (I am in S. AZ, freezes rare.)
    I can put the boost on my charger on it while I try it, or charge battery overnight, I still get this hot dragging

    There is possibility starter getting overheated by manifold, but this never happened before. I did not check last time if it was
    hot. Again, this problem is very new.
    Last edited by Mallory; 03-13-2017, 05:35 PM.

    If the fuel is 4 years old, that would be the first thing to get rid of before going further. Old fuel can actually gum and stick valves in the valve guides. Did not believe it until I saw it. Don't know how old it has to be to do this, but 4 years is definitely enough to cause some issues.


      Interesting! Since Cit has cast in guides, not bronze, possible.
      I added StaBil 4 years ago. Recently; generic carb cleaner and SeaFoam to tank and carb bowl. Also about 5 gals fresh gas (only 3 or so gals of old gas in tank.)
      Better news than scuffing due to over heating piston skirts etc. This again is inconsistent with how well it ran 4 years ago. I then took her to New Mexico, except for a bad leak she ran fine. Needed oil everywhere I stopped. But made it over 40 miles round trip, even up some mountain passes.

      Corvairs interesting, motor turns CCW. saw 4 yesterday.

      dan Oh


        Originally posted by Mallory View Post

        Corvairs interesting, motor turns CCW. saw 4 yesterday.

        dan Oh
        That allowed the use of some of same transmission parts as front engine Chevy's, as the internal parts are still turning the same direction as a front engine turning CW (as viewed from the front of the cars). Reversing the GM generator / alternator and later A.I.R. pump took little effort. The A/C compressor took a little more.


          Me Bad: Make that 400 miles round trip to NM

          Saw restorable, complete Corvair $360, tempting. Like an American Porsche.
          They used to use their motors in Benson Copters and ultralights.


            I've been told: "new battery" means nothing, Yes they fail.

            But not Hot. I think I have a piston clearance problem. Again, this did not happen 4 years ago. Car not overheated, plenty of of oil/coolant. (Coolant 4 years old, yes, But, not driven. It's clean. I use only distilled water with my coolant.)
            Well I'm trying hi swirl pistons, so we'll see. I'm ordering this:


            so maybe I'll see it sooner.

            Or an exorcism.

            This car started Fine 4 years ago, No electrical problems. I'm down to 4 (bad fan switch, short to interior fan, short to ignition, no horn.) When I tried it in June; fusible link went to fan, relay quit, switch quit, no headlights, no interior fan, short in anti-diesel board [could be nearby lightning], tail lights on alla time. I suspected rats But harness looked Fine. Yet no short to fan, it wasn't blocked. Drew normal current. Odd.. I'm also adding a ground strap to unibody. Possible bad connection block to frame.


              "Reversing the GM generator / alternator and later A.I.R. pump took little effort. The A/C compressor took a little more."

              Wait a minute. Direction an alt/gen/compressor turns means nothing. Maybe a rotary vane type Smog pump. Someone fed you a line, Corvair. Take that from someone who studied Auto A/C and has been an electronics tech 35 years. Plus a year of chemistry and engineering, a year experience at hi vacuum and several years experience with it at home and tearing down rotary piston and rotary vane vac pumps at home.

              How was performance of Corvairs? seems with that light engine and chassis, pretty good? I admire efficiency; hemi engines and others that Don't waste mass with heavy blocks and cooling passages or use oddball number of cyls that don't inherently or dynamically balance by their configuration. Radials are Cool But have poor mileage.


                The fan is reversed on a CCW rotation alternator. Many rebuilds have the wrong fan on them after all these years.

                The Corvair A6 air conditioning compressor (GM set the standard for auto A/C) has a different internal oil pump in the sump for CCW rotation. Better designed A/C compressors just don't circulate the refrigerant oil like a 2 stroke engine. The V5 is the only compressor like this in the A-bodies, unless I am forgetting an uncommon one.


                  On second thought; I guess an old fashioned piston compressor would have to run in one direction, only. I've never heard of one with an internal oil pump--even the scroll type (most efficient) just circulate oil in the R134A. This was in a 2015 Auto A/C book. It;s better of course to have positive oil feed.

                  If a fan were centrifugal, it wouldn't matter which way it turned. But if it had blades with any "scoop" on them, I guess it would. Didn't think of that.

                  The output is rectified, doesn't matter which way flux goes. Even in a a generator the commutator and brushes provide DC.


                    On Topic:
                    After a lot of conflicting theories from parts houses; including bad battery, which I discard as 2 in a row acted the same and a bad one will slow crank Cold after sitting a week, Not after getting 10 minutes of charge and warmed up car and oil ( Odds, Captain KIrk, are ten to the tenth power against it.). Was even told: "Get bigger battery". This again is unneccessary as the original size old one worked Fine . No recalls for bigger batteries. This simply masks the real problem. Parts man wanted my $, obviously. Throw away a new battery?:

                    I concluded the car had been overheated at some point. By Whom is a mystery--my renter?
                    The fan switch is bad, the wire was also broken off, the relay had a problem, And; the fusible link went immediately as if fan was jammed.
                    The rings scored the cylinders. I just didn't see it, dead cold. Still it started Well for such a ream job.
                    I never overheated it But the main bearings had shown scuffing even tho they were still in tolerance (Except #5, a different story.) It also had good compression.
                    I need also check thermostat--it seemed ok. With the fan fixed and jumped, it seemed to run fine, no overheating. But, it still slow cranked.

                    We often can't see the obvious due to myopia. "Remove the mote from your own eye before the speck from your brother's...", as good book says.

                    New rings and hone job. I hope pistons OK.

                    Mahalos for the input. I think the gas is OK-- my M/C starts Immediately on the same batch. Bikes are much fussier.