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Thread: L67 U-van Swap

  1. #1
    Senior Member SCREECH's Avatar
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    Default L67 U-van Swap

    This swap might as well be being done on an A-body, except that the cowl and rear part of the body is a bit bigger. Regardless, I've got this whole swap thing going on, and I figured someone on here might care.

    The drivetrain came from a '92 Park Ave Ultra, and my van is a '92 Trans Sport, so the harness only needed 3 add'l wires added for the actual engine management. I have a bit of finishing up to do before it's running, but it's 95% together, with pretty much just the underdash wiring left to do. These few pics give you a bit of a sneak peak...

















    Anyway, I'll be posting more shortly. S'all for now, folks!
    http://www.screech.ws/
    01 Chev 2500HD (4x4), Vortec 8100, 496ci BBC, 3.73 gears, CCSB
    98 Chev K2500 (4x4), Vortec 350, 4.10 gearing, ECLB 155.5" WB
    98 Chev C2500 (2wd), Vortec 350 w/SFI kit, 3.73 gears, ECLB 155.5" WB
    89 Olds Cutlass Ciera W45 Int'l Coupe
    76 Olds Cutlass Supreme Brougham BBC
    95 Pontiac Trans Sport SE (US Model), 3800HO
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport GT
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport SE, S1 3800SC L67 - R.I.P. 2010-09-09



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    Senior Member Duke George V's Avatar
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    Yes!

    So did you drop out the engine and transmission as one assembly and swap them together?
    Daniel
    Kaiser George IX: 1996 Buick Century Special wagon. 214-SFI. 201k miles. Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down. Transmission time, again. First documented LX9 swap in an A-body! Click here to read my build thread!
    Goldilocks: 1992 Buick Century Special sedan. 204-MFI. 132k miles. Current DD.
    Susana: 1993 Buick Century Custom wagon. 204-MFI. 121k miles. Garage ornament. Waiting for an LR4.

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    We've been needing a fresh project to follow on here...carry on...

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    Senior Member cutlassburnin's Avatar
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    niceee...whats the weight of a u-van anyway?

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    Senior Member Prospeeder's Avatar
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    Thats awsome!!
    "Pontiac, Of Course"
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    Senior Member Duke George V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutlassburnin View Post
    niceee...whats the weight of a u-van anyway?
    Most sources have it around 3700 lbs, which is about what most large mid-size and full-size cars weigh these days. Gotta love fiberglass body panels. And even setting aside the supercharger, the 3800 vans were the best performing vans for several years.

    Seven people to go.

    Fake edit: Looking at the Wikipedia entry for the Series I L67, a '94-95 supercharger would add a bit of power and probably bolt right on. Something to look at, SCREECH.
    Daniel
    Kaiser George IX: 1996 Buick Century Special wagon. 214-SFI. 201k miles. Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down. Transmission time, again. First documented LX9 swap in an A-body! Click here to read my build thread!
    Goldilocks: 1992 Buick Century Special sedan. 204-MFI. 132k miles. Current DD.
    Susana: 1993 Buick Century Custom wagon. 204-MFI. 121k miles. Garage ornament. Waiting for an LR4.

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    Senior Member LordDurock's Avatar
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    thats hard core

    Quote Originally Posted by LordDurock
    most great ideas will lose the original luster and wonder of their profound expression, when subject to the masses, for all ideas are building blocks on the greater truth, not the whole truth
    82 Buick Century 4.3lt diesel
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    Senior Member bubblebob88's Avatar
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    Sweet! Turbo it!!!
    -John

    "Do you got a V8 in that Cutlass or something" -Some drunk hoosier barbecuing at a park

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    Senior Member turbokinetic's Avatar
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    Love it! Thanks for posting and keep up the projects!
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke George V View Post
    Most sources have it around 3700 lbs, which is about what most large mid-size and full-size cars weigh these days. Gotta love fiberglass body panels. And even setting aside the supercharger, the 3800 vans were the best performing vans for several years.



    Seven people to go.

    Fake edit: Looking at the Wikipedia entry for the Series I L67, a '94-95 supercharger would add a bit of power and probably bolt right on. Something to look at, SCREECH.
    The Gen 3 with the coated rotors will work, but uses a larger throttle body and an 03a MAF sensor... So his tables would be off..

    For the current I would stick with what he has and use the 92-93 Gen 2 M62...

    Screech, would you ever consider a newer PCM to control it?

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    Senior Member SCREECH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke George V
    So did you drop out the engine and transmission as one assembly and swap them together?
    Yeah, I used the engine AND transmission from the Park Avenue in the van. I did not unbolt them - ran them in the PA, pulled the drivetrain as an assembly and swapped it onto the van's cradle. I'm running the PA's computer and everything, so it won't know anything's different, as EVERYTHING is migrating to the van.

    The transmission is the same as what the van had, the 4T60-E. What started this whole swap was that I had read somewhere online that the 4T60-E HD was available only in the Caddy V8 cars, the 3800 U-vans (which mine is) and the supercharged 3800 cars. So I figured I'd best stick with the HD version in the van, so I started searching for a van to part, but didn't find one I was comfortable with. So I started looking at the supercharged cars and got the idea to swap the supercharged drivetrain in. I've since learned that the ONLY actual HD versions of the 4T60-E were offered only in '96, and ONLY on the supercharged Series II L67s, before they went to the 4T65-E. Oh well, at least I got an L67 out of my "mistake". I saw TONS of cars that had a good naturally aspirated 3800 and a good transmission that I could have swapped, sans wiring and bracketry changes, and the van would have been back on the road way faster. But what fun would that be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke George V
    ...for the Series I L67, a '94-95 supercharger would add a bit of power and probably bolt right on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's3800
    The Gen 3 with the coated rotors will work, but uses a larger throttle body and an 03a MAF sensor... So his tables would be off..
    There were 3 things that they changed to gain the extra 20HP and 15TQ from '93 to '94 - the mods to the 'charger, the larger TB, and the transition to
    roller rockers. I may very well do the roller rockers at some point (Yella Terra makes them for the '92 engines, which have a different rocker stud size from the '93+ Series I engines), but I don't know if I'm going to be getting into swapping the supercharger and TB/MAF. If all the changes they made net'd them the above quoted extra power, the roller lifters have got to be near half of the difference. It would not be worth it to me for that add'l half to swap the charger, TB, etc, etc and deal with all of the other modifications with the programming that would be necessary. Someone on the Pontiac Bonneville Club forum pointed out that little things would need attention, such as the EGR tube on the '94/'95 engines being larger than the previous years, so if the newer 'charger was installed, the existing EGR tube between the valve and the charger would need to be swapped or modified to seal at the new supercharger.

    Quote Originally Posted by bubblebob88 View Post
    Sweet! Turbo it!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's3800
    Screech, would you ever consider a newer PCM to control it?
    I'm going to concentrate on getting it running and reliable before I consider doing anything further to it for now. It's supposed to be my daily driver, so I am more concerned, at this point, about reliability than squeezing every ounce of performance out of it. I think I'll leave the turbo'd L67 market to Skalor for the time being.

    As for the newer PCM, what were you thinking, and why do you ask? I am, for the moment, just looking to get the van running with the factory setup from the Park Avenue. I have no current plans whatsoever thereafter, other than driving it and surprising the odd car at a stoplight. It certainly won't be the fastest thing on the road by any stretch of the imagination, don't get me wrong - I ain't going 'Vette hunting or anything. But with the L27 it was a pretty healthy performer before. I expect to simply "enjoy" the added performance of the supercharger, and "show it off" when given the opportunity.

    As for future plans, I suppose the only that I DO have would be the rockers I mentioned above, and perhaps swapping the sprockets in the the transmission to a 35/35 set. The FDR unit in the transmission is the 3.33:1, but the sprockets give it an effective ratio of 2.97:1. So jumping back up to the 3.33:1 with the L67 would really wake it up!

    Thank you all for your support and encouragement. This "project" (which, as I mentioned, is supposed to be my daily, was supposed to be finished back in JULY. I think I need all the encouragement I can get at this point as one thing after another has been getting in the way. At least almost everything is done now. I have to hook up the vacuum line for the cabin accessories (HVAC controls), and then do the underdash wiring (PCM, VATS, two-flow electric power steering, oil level and life monitors). I'll post more details as soon as I can, along with pictures. Stay tuned!
    Last edited by SCREECH; 10-28-2009 at 05:05 AM.
    http://www.screech.ws/
    01 Chev 2500HD (4x4), Vortec 8100, 496ci BBC, 3.73 gears, CCSB
    98 Chev K2500 (4x4), Vortec 350, 4.10 gearing, ECLB 155.5" WB
    98 Chev C2500 (2wd), Vortec 350 w/SFI kit, 3.73 gears, ECLB 155.5" WB
    89 Olds Cutlass Ciera W45 Int'l Coupe
    76 Olds Cutlass Supreme Brougham BBC
    95 Pontiac Trans Sport SE (US Model), 3800HO
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport GT
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport SE, S1 3800SC L67 - R.I.P. 2010-09-09

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    Senior Member SCREECH's Avatar
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    Duke George - to further answer your question about whether I changed both the engine and the transmission, I had forgotten when I had written the reply above, I had pulled a few more pics out of the cache of over 100 pics I've taken so far of this swap:







    I also forgot to mention that the van's transmission had gone south on me, which is why I started this whole thing in the first place. The L67 was just a nice side benefit to getting a replacement "transmission".

    Enjoy the add'l pics!
    http://www.screech.ws/
    01 Chev 2500HD (4x4), Vortec 8100, 496ci BBC, 3.73 gears, CCSB
    98 Chev K2500 (4x4), Vortec 350, 4.10 gearing, ECLB 155.5" WB
    98 Chev C2500 (2wd), Vortec 350 w/SFI kit, 3.73 gears, ECLB 155.5" WB
    89 Olds Cutlass Ciera W45 Int'l Coupe
    76 Olds Cutlass Supreme Brougham BBC
    95 Pontiac Trans Sport SE (US Model), 3800HO
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport GT
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport SE, S1 3800SC L67 - R.I.P. 2010-09-09

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    Screech, for the VATS if you know anyone that knows how to write the chips you could have a EEPROM install in the Mem cal so that it can be erased electronicly and changes made if you ever want to do so.. But the reason I bring that up is that you can have the VATS and VATS Code turned off in the program so that the Van will start.. Installing a bypass may be just as easy tho..

    as for the 3.33 gears... I am very tempted to tell you to steer clear... with that Boosted motor I would go 3.06 Max... The 3.33's will cause that engine to rev quick... You are better staying with the 2.97's... The engines are rated for 260 Ft Lbs... But we have seen 280 pretty easily.. The van will get around fast with 2.97's... 3.33's will be tire smoke all of the time with that Torquer 3800 SC you have... IIRC the engine you have is rated 260 Ft Lbs at 2600-2800...

    I installed the SC trans in the van, but I did go with 3.33 gears and am considering going back to 3.06 gears.. The 3.33 throws you to 6000 Rpms fast..( In your case you should have a 5000 or 5200 forced shift )..

    I did a little more work on the van.. we found fueling to be way off... So we added a bit across the board... Then we noticed the MAF seemed to be a little off kilter... I replaced it with a newer MAF today with a newer Throttle Body to use that MAF.. Van runs better overall and the fuel trims are a good bit closer... Its more fun to drive now, really feels like it has a cam in it...lol

    Have a little more fuel tuning and then we can add a few degrees of timing...LOL

    I think you are going to have as much fun as me..

  14. #14
    Senior Member SCREECH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's3800
    ...you can have the VATS and VATS Code turned off in the program so that the Van will start.. Installing a bypass may be just as easy tho..
    I've seen the forums full of ppl asking about how to disable their VATS because their decoder module failed, or because of a situation like mine - an engine swap into a vehicle that doesn't have VATS, using a PCM that's equipped with it. However, I had decided how to deal with "challenges" such as this when I was initially researching the project, and that method is to run the Park Avenue's ECM in it's completely stock form, at least initially, VATS and all. To that end I harvested the decoder module with wiring pigtails from under the dash, and the ignition tumbler from the steering column of the Park Ave. The van will be equipped with the VATS system, and I will tout it to my insurance company that I added an anti-theft device and just may get a bit of a discount on my rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's3800
    with that Boosted motor I would go 3.06 Max... The 3.33's will cause that engine to rev quick... You are better staying with the 2.97's... The engines are rated for 260 Ft Lbs... But we have seen 280 pretty easily.. The van will get around fast with 2.97's... 3.33's will be tire smoke all of the time with that Torquer 3800 SC you have... IIRC the engine you have is rated 260 Ft Lbs at 2600-2800...
    It would appear that you are correct about the torque rating. According to what I've found online, the '92/'93 L67 engines were rated for 205HP and 260TQ, with the revisions made in '94 good for 225HP and 275TQ. The van had 3.06 gears in it's previous transmissions with the L27, making 170HP/225TQ. So I am quite confident that it will seem quite peppy with the new engine/trans combo, even with the numerically lower gearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's3800
    ...In your case you should have a 5000 or 5200 forced shift...
    I'll eventually get set up to program the PCM myself, but I currently have neither the equipment, nor the experience. I would prefer the EEPROM method that you mentioned in your previous post. Do you use this method yourself so as to be able to recommend a parts list and/or software package?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jr's3800
    I think you are going to have as much fun as me..
    Here's to hopin'!
    http://www.screech.ws/
    01 Chev 2500HD (4x4), Vortec 8100, 496ci BBC, 3.73 gears, CCSB
    98 Chev K2500 (4x4), Vortec 350, 4.10 gearing, ECLB 155.5" WB
    98 Chev C2500 (2wd), Vortec 350 w/SFI kit, 3.73 gears, ECLB 155.5" WB
    89 Olds Cutlass Ciera W45 Int'l Coupe
    76 Olds Cutlass Supreme Brougham BBC
    95 Pontiac Trans Sport SE (US Model), 3800HO
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport GT
    92 Pontiac Trans Sport SE, S1 3800SC L67 - R.I.P. 2010-09-09

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    Smile

    I think a lot of people tuning the GM OBD1 use Tuner Cat iirc... There are packages you can by for the system iirc.. You would have to buy a chip reader as well... We did this method at first with the van, a friend had the tuner that would write the 94-95 Chips... we got the van to run and drive off the original PCM.. But we needed the ability to tune on the fly..

    So my next set was to go to OBD2, in my case we used a 1997 3800 PCM from an olds LS and flashed it with the Pontiac bin file... we did this due to tuneability and better overall control along with a lower speed TCC Lock.. I hit TCC lock at 28 Mph with low load... I went on vacation, my friend told me to leave the van with him.. He calls me and tells me " Hey listen to this... Vroom Vroom Vroom..... Check engine light came on earlier Don, But I have to delete that code as its unused by this van" .... Nice to have good friends.. He made it look soo easy.. He also has an HP Tuner.. Another good thing about having OBD2 is that with the mods I can tune for them... an example is the injector balance test, you can see what all of the injectors are doing, then go back in and balance the injectors across the board..

    I will be installing a ZZP PLOG( Performance exhaust manifold for the front ) and when i do this we will need to do an injector skew of 2% to the front.. So for me the OBD2 was for overall control... as well I can use an Areoforce Scan gauge or a Scan Gauge on it being its 96+ OBD2.. so for me I had no reason not to..

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