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Thread: Air Conditioner Repair Videos - Full System Restoration...

  1. #46
    Senior Member Century7667's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbokinetic View Post
    Yeah it's a shame about the quality problems. My 84 Olympia has an original USA variable orifice and it works like a charm. The "new / Chinese" V5 compressor I installed at that same time failed 3 times. The store gave me a replacement orifice tube, but it was Chinese. Hard lesson troubleshooting the system. Ended up locating the original one, cleaning it, and putting it back in. Problem solved. But the Chinese compressors were a continued fail. I got fed up with it and installed the cheapest reman from Advance that they sold at the time. It is still there several years later and still cools like a champ!

    I have been thoroughly impressed with HFC152A. Although it does require a conversion and flush (oil compatibility) it seems to perform about as well as R12. The cycling clutch surge is less, too since it runs at a lower pressure. It helped My 87 Park Avenue which has an original DA6 cycling compressor. Even with the mighty 3.8SFI LG3 engine you can feel the clutch cycle. With the HFC152A it is less noticeable.
    David,

    It's been.... 3 years since you started doing those conversions? Seems to be working well. I thought about it myself. It does use the same PAG as R134a, so no flush is required to covert, right?

    Ken T.



  2. #47
    Senior Member turbokinetic's Avatar
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    Yes, and yes.

    If it was a factory R134A system then you would only need to pull vacuum, then recharge.
    If it was an R12 system, it would need oil flushing to provide compatible lubricant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Century7667 View Post
    David,

    It's been.... 3 years since you started doing those conversions? Seems to be working well. I thought about it myself. It does use the same PAG as R134a, so no flush is required to covert, right?

    Ken T.

  3. #48
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    This is a cool (no pun intended) forum, with a lot of helpful information posted by members. Thanks to the folks who provided informative comments in reply to my questions on variable orifice tubes/valves and HR6/V5 compressors. Geez, contained therein is another admonition to watch out for parts & knockoffs made in Ch**a. A la Yogi Berra, it's caveat emptor all over again! Anyone have any interesting anecdotes & good tips on how to recognize & avoid such inferior quality parts?

    Don't mean to write a book, but I'm strictly a self-taught, enthusiast DIY'er who once lusted after mid-to-late 60's American muscle cars. I also recognize that I know enough to be dangerous, so safety first! And whatever mechanical aptitude I possess is no relation to my college concentration or career, LOL. By way of contrast, I'm currently overhauling an inoperative a/c system on a (deceptive/hauls a** when tuned/3300) project car - a.k.a. 1993-vintage Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera sedan, purchased with 63K on the odometer at an estate sale. The car was previously owned locally by an elderly gentleman, not a Daytona 500 wanna-be, so I doubt he ever floored it. My student son needed a cheap car for work, so I bought it after a look-over & test-drive. (When said son graduates and gets a full-time job, he can buy whatever car he wants, or more likely, whatever he can afford.)

    More background info: even though no maintenance history was available, the Ciera's drive train appeared to be in good shape. Surprisingly good body, too. On the other hand, being a northeast U.S. rust-belt car, some items did need attention: holes in muffler & exhaust pipe; rattling catalytic converter; more exhaust leak/noise due to burned-through exhaust flange donut/gasket just downstream of O2 sensor; rusted/flaking brake lines & aging brake drums, rotors, pads, shoes & hardware; corroded lower coil spring perches on dummy rear axle; corrosion on battery tray; corroded fuel tank, metal fuel lines & fuel filler neck; corrosion on engine cradle/sub-frame, control arms & tie rods. Front struts ok. In addition, the Ciera had worn tires, a fallen-down rear-view mirror hanging from the inner windshield by its electric wire, mismatched wheel covers, leaking heater core flowing dirty coolant containing sediment; worn/leaking rear shocks and cracked rubber shock mounts; dry-rotted rubber vacuum lines; original PCV; so-so air filter & stuck trunk lock.

    But the engine wasn't tired - it ran good, at least until recently, when an intermittent misfire appeared; then found #1 OEM ignition wire was corroded inside the boot on the spark plug end. Don't know how it got that way - all the other OEM spark plug wires were corrosion-free & ohmed out to within spec. Replaced the wire, & spark plugs, too; also cleaned the ignition control module mounting plate & lubed it with thermally-conducting GC Electronics Type Z9 silicone heat sink compound. Shortly after, another problem appeared: the engine would cut off suddenly while driving. Started right back up every time. No OBD1 codes stored in computer. Ruled out intermittent/heat-related ignition system failure; subsequently diagnosed & replaced a failing fuel pump. (You should have seen the crap that dripped out of the fuel filter - it was probably the OEM original & never replaced.) Car got a new fuel tank, straps, filter, filler neck & fuel pump/sending unit assembly as an early Christmas present. Runs great again.

    Yeah, quite a list on the repair menu, but with all the fixin's came an additional benefit: I advanced my skill set considerably. Student son learned something, too, not to mention that some car repairs are hard work, challenging enough to require patience, stimulate problem-solving workarounds, produce body aches & pains, and above all, cost money. Took lots of pics to document much of the work and just in case it might help someone else. Make requests known.

    Still need to address a weak driver's LF power window motor & dead RR motor. Headliner is starting to sag just a little above the windshield visors. Power antenna no longer moves up & down, but radio works fine - has a CASSETTE player no less - wouldn't recognize a CD if it saw one. Also need to replace cracked waist/belt weatherstrips outside of the windows on all four doors, cracked plastic front bumper parking signal lenses, cracking rubber sub-frame cushions and maybe sway bar bushings. Keeping an eye on small cracks in the rubber on the crankshaft harmonic balancer/dampener. Thankfully, no apparent problems (yet) with intake manifold leaks, leaking water pump or other coolant leaks, shorting Multec fuel injectors or other mysterious electrical gremlins, failing crankshaft position sensor or other sensors, ignition control module or coil packs.

    One more, and this is a biggie, the a/c system was completely empty - no pressure at all on my manifold gauge set when I checked. Considering the locations of stuck-on grime found under the hood, I suspect that the what looks-to-be original GM/OEM Harrison HR6HE compressor blew a shaft seal and/or belly-leaked refrigerant and oil. Didn't find any evidence of leaks elsewhere. So now I'm wrenching on this last major project to bring the car up to snuff mechanically. I managed to disconnect all the a/c fittings without stripping any of them, although the evaporator inlet fitting was a bugger. I finally got it to budge after MULTIPLE sessions over the summer using penetrating oil and propane torch heat. Unfortunately, I cracked the evaporator inlet tube by inadvertently twisting it - even while using a back-up wrench. The lower metal bracket condenser supports were corroded - one rusted completely through - will replace both. The brackets' rubber cushions are salvageable. The orifice tube had a couple of metallic flakes on the screen, but no black death. Liquid & suction lines flushed clear with brake cleaner. Manifold/muffler assembly flushed some fine metallic flakes. Hmm ... car is old, fate of compressor unconfirmed without autopsy. Was going to flush the condenser but changed my mind. Don't wanna revisit this project to do a rerun. I want this a/c repair to last for the remaining life of the car = happy son. So, game plan revised to replace the compressor with a new old stock ACDelco (Moraine, Ohio, made in USA) compressor I found and all-new ACDelco brand manifold/muffler assembly (made in Mexico)*, ACDelco condenser (made in USA), ACDelco (white) orifice tube, and ACDelco/Delphi/Harrison evaporator core (not indicated where made) - which leads me to my current conundrum.

    How does one oil-prime a new "dry" ACDelco parts/service HR6 compressor as a replacement for the original GM/OEM HR6? No holes & not enough meat on the clutch plate for a conventional spanner wrench to grip. Moreover, there's NO shaft nut to turn with a socket or hand wrench. Not only that, I read that the torque force necessary to turn the compressor precludes turning it by hand anyway. I also read that a "compressor turner tool" was sold in the aftermarket to solve this problem. I suppose that in order to use this tool, the compressor has to be mounted either to a fixture or to its place in the vehicle in order to stabilize it. The tool is still available, with current prices range from $13 to $40 and up from various providers/resellers: AirSept, Amazon, Autozone, Cliplight, Cold Power, Delphi, Ebay, Flo-Dynamics, MEI/Airsource, NAPA, Niagra, Robinair, Walmart, etc. See image in the following link:

    http://www.partdeal.com/media/catalo...d/8/1/8168.jpg

    I don't have any experience in using such a tool but it seems pretty straightforward. Has anyone in this forum ever used one? I'd be interested in your comments on this and also any comments/experience on how to prime an HR6 a/c compressor.

    Where to apportion the specified amount of fresh system oil is another issue. Opinions range all over the map on this one. For a cycling clutch orifice tube system, I like the idea of pouring "enough" oil into the suction port of a new "dry" compressor to pre-lube it, and the rest in a new accumulator. But how much is enough? Some sources say pour 5 oz. into the compressor, but isn't that overkill? And how to ensure that the compressor shaft seal is adequately lubricated before compressor start-up? Pour "enough" oil into the compressor and enlist the aid of gravity by standing the compressor on end on the clutch plate overnight? As for the condenser and evaporator, why bother adding any oil to them at all? Oil carried by the refrigerant pumped by the compressor will eventually get to these downstream components . Moreover, they're not moving parts susceptible to wear as is the compressor. Seems to me that as long as the compressor sees adequate oil on start-up, that's what matters. What would happen to a new "dry" compressor if ALL of the fresh oil was poured into ONLY the accumulator before compressor start-up? What is the start-up risk of damaging the compressor under that scenario?

    On another note, substituting a V5 compressor for an OEM HR6 sounds intriguing, but I'm not ready yet to tackle the modifications** needed, i.e., I'm learning to walk before running. Maybe on a future project, like the 3300's big brother 3.8L I have stored. Anyway, is the presence of clutch-cycling with a running HR6 that big a deal to eliminate in terms of noise or system efficiency? Experienced hands know more than I do, so please weigh in with your comments.

    *Curiously, the new ACDelco (made in Mexico) replacement manifold/muffler assembly has a conventional Schrader valve installed in the hi-pressure port located in the aluminum tubing leading to the condenser. So no need for the special so-called "deep-throat" GM adapter to access the valve, unlike on the original OEM assembly, nor special octagon socket to unscrew the fitting. Go figure ... Anyone ever access a "deep throat" fitting using such adapter while attaching a manifold gauge set to obtain high & low side pressures? Or use the octagon socket to unscrew the high-side fitting? Relevant information on the internet on the actual use of these tools is scant.

    **BTW, what's best way to "slot" a bolt hole? Never done that. Use a drill press? Grinder attachment? Carbide cutting bit? File? As for welding skills & equipment, don't have either yet, but I hope to in the future.

    As other forum members already know, Turbokinetic's a/c system rebuild & compressor service videos are terrific! Thank-you David!
    Last edited by 93CieraDude; 10-29-2016 at 02:23 AM.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Century7667's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard! The a-body cars truly are the transitory link between the all American cars that you loved from the 60's and the modern era. Spanning 14 years of production they saw the introduction of modern hardware...and yet retain the traditional look and feel of a true American car.

    I'm not really qualified to answers most of your questions. We'll have to wait till David returns to post (his thread anyway). Sounds like the car needs a lot of love, but it will reward you for your efforts!

    Ken T.

  5. #50
    Senior Member turbokinetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93CieraDude View Post
    This is a cool (no pun intended) forum, with a lot of helpful information posted by members. Thanks to the folks who provided informative comments in reply to my questions on variable orifice tubes/valves and HR6/V5 compressors. Geez, contained therein is another admonition to watch out for parts & knockoffs made in Ch**a. A la Yogi Berra, it's caveat emptor all over again! Anyone have any interesting anecdotes & good tips on how to recognize & avoid such inferior quality parts?
    Welcome to the forum! No problem about the long post - it has a lot of information! this is a good thing.

    As for identification of Chinese / inferior parts, it comes with experience. After seeing enough "real" GM parts, you can see slight differences in the casting texture, locations of ribbing or reinforcements, differnces in the clutch coil design, and bolt head markings. Once again - it's a learned skill.

    Don't mean to write a book, but I'm strictly a self-taught, enthusiast DIY'er who once lusted after mid-to-late 60's American muscle cars. I also recognize that I know enough to be dangerous, so safety first! And whatever mechanical aptitude I possess is no relation to my college concentration or career, LOL. By way of contrast, I'm currently overhauling an inoperative a/c system on a (deceptive/hauls a** when tuned/3300) project car - a.k.a. 1993-vintage Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera sedan, purchased with 63K on the odometer at an estate sale. The car was previously owned locally by an elderly gentleman, not a Daytona 500 wanna-be, so I doubt he ever floored it. My student son needed a cheap car for work, so I bought it after a look-over & test-drive. (When said son graduates and gets a full-time job, he can buy whatever car he wants, or more likely, whatever he can afford.)

    More background info: even though no maintenance history was available, the Ciera's drive train appeared to be in good shape. Surprisingly good body, too. On the other hand, being a northeast U.S. rust-belt car, some items did need attention: holes in muffler & exhaust pipe; rattling catalytic converter; more exhaust leak/noise due to burned-through exhaust flange donut/gasket just downstream of O2 sensor; rusted/flaking brake lines & aging brake drums, rotors, pads, shoes & hardware; corroded lower coil spring perches on dummy rear axle; corrosion on battery tray; corroded fuel tank, metal fuel lines & fuel filler neck; corrosion on engine cradle/sub-frame, control arms & tie rods. Front struts ok. In addition, the Ciera had worn tires, a fallen-down rear-view mirror hanging from the inner windshield by its electric wire, mismatched wheel covers, leaking heater core flowing dirty coolant containing sediment; worn/leaking rear shocks and cracked rubber shock mounts; dry-rotted rubber vacuum lines; original PCV; so-so air filter & stuck trunk lock.

    But the engine wasn't tired - it ran good, at least until recently, when an intermittent misfire appeared; then found #1 OEM ignition wire was corroded inside the boot on the spark plug end. Don't know how it got that way - all the other OEM spark plug wires were corrosion-free & ohmed out to within spec. Replaced the wire, & spark plugs, too; also cleaned the ignition control module mounting plate & lubed it with thermally-conducting GC Electronics Type Z9 silicone heat sink compound. Shortly after, another problem appeared: the engine would cut off suddenly while driving. Started right back up every time. No OBD1 codes stored in computer. Ruled out intermittent/heat-related ignition system failure; subsequently diagnosed & replaced a failing fuel pump. (You should have seen the crap that dripped out of the fuel filter - it was probably the OEM original & never replaced.) Car got a new fuel tank, straps, filter, filler neck & fuel pump/sending unit assembly as an early Christmas present. Runs great again.
    Yeah! Those fuel pump vapor-lock issues are frustrating! I have been fighting a couple cars that are doing this. It was worse when hot and sometimes really frustrating in hot weather!

    Yeah, quite a list on the repair menu, but with all the fixin's came an additional benefit: I advanced my skill set considerably. Student son learned something, too, not to mention that some car repairs are hard work, challenging enough to require patience, stimulate problem-solving workarounds, produce body aches & pains, and above all, cost money. Took lots of pics to document much of the work and just in case it might help someone else. Make requests known.
    Please - post as many pictures as you can! We all love to see them and they are very helpful to others. Don't post them here in the A/C thread - go in the forum "Project Central" and begin a thread for your car. Detail each repair one by one. Be sure to put the subject of the repair in the post title, so that it is easier to search for it. That would be best!

    Still need to address a weak driver's LF power window motor & dead RR motor. Headliner is starting to sag just a little above the windshield visors. Power antenna no longer moves up & down, but radio works fine - has a CASSETTE player no less - wouldn't recognize a CD if it saw one. Also need to replace cracked waist/belt weatherstrips outside of the windows on all four doors, cracked plastic front bumper parking signal lenses, cracking rubber sub-frame cushions and maybe sway bar bushings. Keeping an eye on small cracks in the rubber on the crankshaft harmonic balancer/dampener. Thankfully, no apparent problems (yet) with intake manifold leaks, leaking water pump or other coolant leaks, shorting Multec fuel injectors or other mysterious electrical gremlins, failing crankshaft position sensor or other sensors, ignition control module or coil packs.
    I plan to do a window motor refurbish video before long! Stay tuned for that.

    One more, and this is a biggie, the a/c system was completely empty - no pressure at all on my manifold gauge set when I checked. Considering the locations of stuck-on grime found under the hood, I suspect that the what looks-to-be original GM/OEM Harrison HR6HE compressor blew a shaft seal and/or belly-leaked refrigerant and oil. Didn't find any evidence of leaks elsewhere. So now I'm wrenching on this last major project to bring the car up to snuff mechanically. I managed to disconnect all the a/c fittings without stripping any of them, although the evaporator inlet fitting was a bugger. I finally got it to budge after MULTIPLE sessions over the summer using penetrating oil and propane torch heat. Unfortunately, I cracked the evaporator inlet tube by inadvertently twisting it - even while using a back-up wrench.
    How accessible is the cracked area? It can be brazed if you can get to it and it's not too near the coil, where that will get melted or de-soldered when you heat the tube.

    The lower metal bracket condenser supports were corroded - one rusted completely through - will replace both. The brackets' rubber cushions are salvageable. The orifice tube had a couple of metallic flakes on the screen, but no black death. Liquid & suction lines flushed clear with brake cleaner. Manifold/muffler assembly flushed some fine metallic flakes. Hmm ... car is old, fate of compressor unconfirmed without autopsy. Was going to flush the condenser but changed my mind. Don't wanna revisit this project to do a rerun. I want this a/c repair to last for the remaining life of the car = happy son. So, game plan revised to replace the compressor with a new old stock ACDelco (Moraine, Ohio, made in USA) compressor I found and all-new ACDelco brand manifold/muffler assembly (made in Mexico)*, ACDelco condenser (made in USA), ACDelco (white) orifice tube, and ACDelco/Delphi/Harrison evaporator core (not indicated where made) - which leads me to my current conundrum.
    By the way, ALL the new Delphi compressors are made in Mexico - including the original factory-installed ones on most of the late 90's to current cars. The Mexico ones are very good.

    How does one oil-prime a new "dry" ACDelco parts/service HR6 compressor as a replacement for the original GM/OEM HR6? No holes & not enough meat on the clutch plate for a conventional spanner wrench to grip. Moreover, there's NO shaft nut to turn with a socket or hand wrench. Not only that, I read that the torque force necessary to turn the compressor precludes turning it by hand anyway. I also read that a "compressor turner tool" was sold in the aftermarket to solve this problem. I suppose that in order to use this tool, the compressor has to be mounted either to a fixture or to its place in the vehicle in order to stabilize it. The tool is still available, with current prices range from $13 to $40 and up from various providers/resellers: AirSept, Amazon, Autozone, Cliplight, Cold Power, Delphi, Ebay, Flo-Dynamics, MEI/Airsource, NAPA, Niagra, Robinair, Walmart, etc. See image in the following link:

    http://www.partdeal.com/media/catalo...d/8/1/8168.jpg

    I don't have any experience in using such a tool but it seems pretty straightforward. Has anyone in this forum ever used one? I'd be interested in your comments on this and also any comments/experience on how to prime an HR6 a/c compressor.
    Honestly - you should NOT need any special tools to rotate the shaft of an HR6 / HD6 / DA6 compressor. This should turn by hand but should be tight.

    There's some oil in the compressor, as an assembly lubricant. They say it is "dry" but that's really not entirely true. They lubed the parts up with mineral oil as they assembled it, and they ran the compressor pumping air to ensure it works. If you turn the head of the compressor with the shipping caps on the rear, it will put pressure in the discharge port, and probably "splart" out a mess of oil all over you when you take the cap off.

    You can pour some oil into the back of the compressor (the suction port) before you install it. This is not really necessary, and it will more than likely get spilled as you connect the lines. The internals are already lubricated at the factory with a coating of assembly lube, and the dryer will send oil to the compressor immediately... assuming you do the charge the right way.

    There is no need whatsoever to put oil into the evaporator or condenser coils. The compressor is the only moving part. It gets its oil from the dryer, then slowly sends oil throughout the system. The most important thing is that the dryer is able to send a mist of oil to the compressor upon startup.

    Where to apportion the specified amount of fresh system oil is another issue. Opinions range all over the map on this one. For a cycling clutch orifice tube system, I like the idea of pouring "enough" oil into the suction port of a new "dry" compressor to pre-lube it, and the rest in a new accumulator. But how much is enough? Some sources say pour 5 oz. into the compressor, but isn't that overkill? And how to ensure that the compressor shaft seal is adequately lubricated before compressor start-up? Pour "enough" oil into the compressor and enlist the aid of gravity by standing the compressor on end on the clutch plate overnight? As for the condenser and evaporator, why bother adding any oil to them at all? Oil carried by the refrigerant pumped by the compressor will eventually get to these downstream components . Moreover, they're not moving parts susceptible to wear as is the compressor. Seems to me that as long as the compressor sees adequate oil on start-up, that's what matters. What would happen to a new "dry" compressor if ALL of the fresh oil was poured into ONLY the accumulator before compressor start-up? What is the start-up risk of damaging the compressor under that scenario?
    No risk of damage. This is how I do it every time with HR6 / DA6 / HD6 / R4 compressors. Have never had a compressor failure. (The V5 is different in that it has its own oil sump that has to be filled.)

    If you pour a bunch of oil into the compressor, it will immediately shoot it into the condenser. Then that oil will be unavailable to the compressor until it has worked its way around the entire system. It's better to let the oil orifice in the dryer meter the oil to the compressor at the correct rate.

    On another note, substituting a V5 compressor for an OEM HR6 sounds intriguing, but I'm not ready yet to tackle the modifications** needed, i.e., I'm learning to walk before running. Maybe on a future project, like the 3300's big brother 3.8L I have stored. Anyway, is the presence of clutch-cycling with a running HR6 that big a deal to eliminate in terms of noise or system efficiency? Experienced hands know more than I do, so please weigh in with your comments.
    It doesn't affect efficiency; however you really feel the cycling off / on of the HR6. I am used to the V5 systems and when driving my 87 Park Avenue with HR6 - I really feel and notice and dislike the cycling feel.

    *Curiously, the new ACDelco (made in Mexico) replacement manifold/muffler assembly has a conventional Schrader valve installed in the hi-pressure port located in the aluminum tubing leading to the condenser. So no need for the special so-called "deep-throat" GM adapter to access the valve, unlike on the original OEM assembly, nor special octagon socket to unscrew the fitting. Go figure ... Anyone ever access a "deep throat" fitting using such adapter while attaching a manifold gauge set to obtain high & low side pressures? Or use the octagon socket to unscrew the high-side fitting? Relevant information on the internet on the actual use of these tools is scant.

    **BTW, what's best way to "slot" a bolt hole? Never done that. Use a drill press? Grinder attachment? Carbide cutting bit? File? As for welding skills & equipment, don't have either yet, but I hope to in the future.

    As other form members already know, Turbokinetic's a/c system rebuild & compressor service videos are terrific! Thank-you David!
    You're very welcome! I don't mind at all.

    As for the high-side fitting, I have never really needed it - other than for a fan switch port. Haven't had any real issues with the gauges connecting to it, since there has to be ab adapter fitting to connect the automotive R134A gauges anyway. I don't have a set of R12 gauges that will fit the high side port. Maybe someone else can chime in!

    As for slotting holes, I use a Dremel moto-tool with a carbide burr bit. They call this carbide bit a rotary file or a tile cutting bit.

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    I just discovered I can't post project pics directly into a thread/reply. Am I missing something or do I have to go through a 3rd-party web site first? Any recommendations from forum members who are experienced at this?

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    Since my new ACDelco HR6 compressor has NO shaft nut, nor suitable holes for a conventional 3-point spanner wrench, any suggestions on how to hand-turn the shaft? I can't get it to budge even a millimeter.

  8. #53
    Senior Member turbokinetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93CieraDude View Post
    I just discovered I can't post project pics directly into a thread/reply. Am I missing something or do I have to go through a 3rd-party web site first? Any recommendations from forum members who are experienced at this?
    There are several good photo hosting sites. I have used PhotoBucket. http://www.photobucket.com

    I know that Duke George V uses ImgUr. http://imgur.com/

    Maybe others can chime in, too.

    There's a Photobucket tutorial here, it may help. http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?43553

    I have also used a home server with static IP for pictures. I've had it since before the other sites were available and it works OK for small scale things. Since Photobucket has become so convenient, I have stopped adding to my home server and everything new in on Photobucket now.

    EDIT: As a site note - do not use links to Facebook photos on this site. This is frowned upon by many members because not everyone wants to sign up for Facebook, and you're limiting who can see the pictures to Facebook subscribers. I respect peoples opinions and reasons, which are usually centered around privacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by 93CieraDude View Post
    Since my new ACDelco HR6 compressor has NO shaft nut, nor suitable holes for a conventional 3-point spanner wrench, any suggestions on how to hand-turn the shaft? I can't get it to budge even a millimeter.
    Wow. I've never had that problem with the HR6. Mind you that I am a field service mechanic for Caterpillar and probably have developed slightly more than average hand strength doing this work... but the compressor shouldn't be that awful tight.

    You can hotwire the clutch so that it engages, and then you'll have the entire pulley to grip when you turn it - that might give enough to move it.

    Really, again, I don't think that's actually necessary since you'll be feeding it oil the instant it starts running, instead of filling it with oil and potentially causing an incompressibility issue.

    If you REALLY just can't live without satisfying that curiousity - then sometimes an oilflter pliers tool can grip the edge of the clutch plate and get leverage to turn it!

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    David, thanks for the suggestions on photo-hosting sites. Hope to get my pics up on a-body.net soon. As you also suggested, I will plan to set up a separate thread for my makeover project.

    BTW: Finally got the new a/c compressor to turn after installation by using the special tool & a breaker bar. It "popped" and now turns freely with a ratchet, so the compressor should be good to go.

    Got another dilemma. After all the wrenching, got my a/c system buttoned up & fired up my vacuum pump. Wouldn't draw down to 30 as expected. Grrr, must have a leak, or leaks, somewhere. Compressor, condenser, evaporator & manifold hose/muffler assembly are all new, along with Schrader valves. (Am reusing liquid line and vapor line from evaporator.) Sat as is for a couple of days until I had time to work on it again. Worried about the new accumulator in the presence of a leak, even though the system was buttoned up. Couple of days later, I disconnected the lines and checked all the fittings. I discovered I might have made a mistake when installing new (green) o-rings from a generic kit box. Hadn't noticed previously that the vapor tube running from the evaporator outlet to the accumulator has recessed groves for the o-rings. The original black OEM o-rings are a little thicker than the generic ones I was using. So ok, bought a vehicle-specific Santech Rapid-Seal kit from Autozone for $7 which has the thicker o-rings. Disconnected the line again and replaced the generic o-rings. Fired up the vacuum pump again. Great - down to 30 now we go. Let it run at 30 for two hours. Shut pump off and waited to see if vacuum is maintained. Oh-oh, vacuum bled-off and reads at 8 after two hours. Bummer! So now I'm trying to isolate the leak(s), which seems to be at or downstream of the accumulator (between the accumulator and the low-side of the compressor).

    Question: at what point is the new accumulator in mortal danger? Still have the original caps to use, but I hadn't figured on multiple exposures to air after initial installation, especially while sitting for two days in the presence of a leak.

  10. #55
    Senior Member turbokinetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93CieraDude View Post
    David, thanks for the suggestions on photo-hosting sites. Hope to get my pics up on a-body.net soon. As you also suggested, I will plan to set up a separate thread for my makeover project.

    BTW: Finally got the new a/c compressor to turn after installation by using the special tool & a breaker bar. It "popped" and now turns freely with a ratchet, so the compressor should be good to go.

    Got another dilemma. After all the wrenching, got my a/c system buttoned up & fired up my vacuum pump. Wouldn't draw down to 30 as expected. Grrr, must have a leak, or leaks, somewhere. Compressor, condenser, evaporator & manifold hose/muffler assembly are all new, along with Schrader valves. (Am reusing liquid line and vapor line from evaporator.) Sat as is for a couple of days until I had time to work on it again. Worried about the new accumulator in the presence of a leak, even though the system was buttoned up. Couple of days later, I disconnected the lines and checked all the fittings. I discovered I might have made a mistake when installing new (green) o-rings from a generic kit box. Hadn't noticed previously that the vapor tube running from the evaporator outlet to the accumulator has recessed groves for the o-rings. The original black OEM o-rings are a little thicker than the generic ones I was using. So ok, bought a vehicle-specific Santech Rapid-Seal kit from Autozone for $7 which has the thicker o-rings. Disconnected the line again and replaced the generic o-rings. Fired up the vacuum pump again. Great - down to 30 now we go. Let it run at 30 for two hours. Shut pump off and waited to see if vacuum is maintained. Oh-oh, vacuum bled-off and reads at 8 after two hours. Bummer! So now I'm trying to isolate the leak(s), which seems to be at or downstream of the accumulator (between the accumulator and the low-side of the compressor).

    Question: at what point is the new accumulator in mortal danger? Still have the original caps to use, but I hadn't figured on multiple exposures to air after initial installation, especially while sitting for two days in the presence of a leak.
    Glad you're getting some progress on it!

    As for the accumulator, it won't be in danger as long as the system was mostly sealed. It will draw moisture from air, but it needs a flow of air circulating through it to do this. If there is a pinhole leak in a line, it won't do it in 2 days. If the ports were both wide-open, then yes it would be saturated.

    Forgive me for asking something obvious, but just trying to cover all bases - when you shut off the vacuum pump, you did close the valve between the vac pump and the A/C system, I hope? Most vacuum pumps aren't designed to hold vacuum when not running.

    When there are "moderate" leaks such as this, I often try putting air pressure in the system and then spraying soapy water on the fittings to locate the leaking point.

    Some points that have leaked for me in the past:

    Corroded liquid line. Tube corroded and pinholed, the damage was concealed by a plastic / rubber outer covering on the tube. Under the cover, there were severely corroded spots. Not repairable.

    Rubbed liquid line. There was some other part that rubbed the line paper-thin, and then it leaked. This is repairable with Alumalloy solder.

    Pressure cycling switch. The plastic body of the switch was cracked. Someone GorillaTorqued with pliers.

    Very unlikely, but the evaporator core can get pinholes in it. This is especially true if the car has had a lot of dust and dirt trapped in there, with road salt.

    Compressor. The shaft seal or other areas of the compressor could be faulty. In light of the difficulty you had turning the shaft, that makes me think there could be something going on there. That can be difficult to detect without a refrigerant gas detector tool. You can, however, cap off the lines to the rest of the system and evacuate the system without the compressor in the picture. That will allow you to determine if it's a compressor versus a system leak.

    If your compressor was shipped with a rubber-coated metal plate covering the ports, you can turn this over so the rubber side is out. Then tighten the lines over the rubber surface to seal them. Then evacuate it and see how well it holds.

    Hope this helps!

  11. #56
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    Turbokinetic, many thanks for your turbo responses providing timely and detailed information on potential leak sources and troubleshooting!

    OK, I did some more work on the a/c system leak problem yesterday. I used rubber stoppers purchased at Ace Hardware to plug various locations in the lines to see if I could isolate the problem. For troubleshooting purposes, I also re-installed the old accumulator so I wouldn't have to worry about hydrating and ruining the new one during multiple instances of closing and re-opening the system. All vacuuming was done using my MAC Tools gauge set's low side hose attached to the a/c system low-side service port. Vacuum pump is a Yellow Jacket 4 CFM 2-stage unit with fresh oil.

    Test #1: After reinstalling the old accumulator, I did not reconnect the manifold assembly low-side hose leading to the compressor suction port. This effectively removed that section of hose from the vacuum test, including the connection/seal at the compressor. I plugged the outlet port of the accumulator with a rubber stopper, fired up the vacuum pump and opened up the low side knob on the gauge set. Vacuum pump pulled system down to 30 in a couple of minutes. Let pump run for 10 minutes, then closed knob and shut pump off. Waited another 10 minutes. Vacuum gauge remained at 30.

    Conclusion: This portion of the a/c system holds vacuum - from the accumulator outlet all the way back through the loop to the discharge side of the compressor.

    Test #2: I reconnected the manifold assembly low-side hose to the accumulator outlet port. I then disconnected the suction hose/vapor line from the evaporator outlet and plugged the end of the hose with a rubber stopper. This effectively removed from the test that portion of a/c loop from the evaporator back to the discharge side of the compressor. Fired up the vacuum pump again, opened the gauge knob and noted that the vacuum pulled the system down to 22 but no further. After closing the knob and turning the vacuum pump off, the gauge reading rapidly regressed back up to 0.

    Conclusion: The leak is between the accumulator outlet and the suction side of the compressor. I suspect a faulty seal or sealing surface between the compressor suction port and manifold.

    Test #3: Retaining the same setup as in test #2, I now disconnected the manifold from the rear head of the compressor and plugged both manifold ports with rubber stoppers. (Since the high side of the system is out of the loop for this test, plugging the high-side manifold port serves no purpose other than to avoid contaminating the port.) Fired up the vacuum pump for the 3rd time. The system pulled down to 30 and eureka! - remained that way - for HOURS!

    Conclusion & diagnosis: Incomplete seal between the compressor suction port and manifold.

    Notes:

    There are no service records available for this car indicating any prior a/c work on the OEM system, nor any sticker anywhere on the car indicating the addition of fluorescent dye to the system.

    I thought about using compressed air and soap solution for troubleshooting, but tried these tests first. What PSI would be effective if using air?

    My vacuuming technique sequence is: manifold gauge knobs closed, turn vacuum pump on, open gauge knob, observe gauge reading, close gauge knob, turn pump off, observe gauge reading.

    I inspected the pressure switch - luckily didn't see any cracks in the plastic. Installed a new o-ring there, too.

    The OEM compressor 5/8" suction and discharge ports have sealing surfaces that are shallow and level - in the same plane. The replacement compressor has a similarly shallow sealing surface for the suction port, but the discharge port sealing surface is deeper and not in the same plane. The OEM compressor suction and discharge ports are sealed with two identical thin sealing washers. The replacement compressor supposedly requires the same thin sealing washer for its suction port, BUT the deeper discharge port requires a THICKER sealing washer. I surmise that I opted for the wrong THICK sealing washer, or WASHER COMBINATION out of the assortment provided by the two ACDelco sealing washer kits that came with the compressor, thus creating an imperfect seal between the manifold and the suction port of the compressor.

    My ACDelco sealing washer kit containing the thick washers colored red, green and yellow also contains so-called inserts. Can someone explain what these are for and how they are used?

    Other DIY'ers have reported encountering this washer selection dilemma. See links & pics:

    http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/cooli...w-acdelco.html

    http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/sh...post/last/m/1/

    Four Seasons has a Tech Tip guide on selecting the correct GM compressor sealing washers for a given application, but their part numbers don't cross-reference to ACDelco part numbers. See link:

    http://www.compressorworks.com/Uploa...%20SEASONS.PDF

    So, it seems that my a/c leak problem might be resolved with the correct combination of sealing washers. The question now is: which ones?

    Addendum trivia: As mentioned in my last post, and in accordance with installation instructions, I finally got my new replacement compressor's shaft to turn by hand (supposedly to bring oil up to the shaft seal to lubricate it). Here are a few more details for anyone desiring to know. Previously I had poured 1 ounce of oil into the suction port and stood the compressor on its head overnight. Didn't know if it would help, but I figured it couldn't hurt. (I plan on adding the rest of the oil to the new accumulator once I confirm that my a/c system holds vacuum.) Since I didn't have a special holding jig, I finally got the compressor to turn by installing it on the car (to prevent the pulley from turning by means of the stationary serpentine drive belt). For a few bucks, I bought the special turning tool I previously referred to and used a breaker bar on a 19mm socket to turn the compressor shaft. It "popped" free and now turns easily and smoothly with a conventional ratchet. Others have reported on this issue. In the following link, note GM Tech's reply to a poster on the internet and his mention of swash plate manufacturing resin's glue-like effect on the axial plate shoes as a cause of tight shafts requiring a lot of torque to turn.

    http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...threadid=22236

    Interesting.

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    Feel sheepish for asking, but how do I start a project thread so I can upload my pics? I've looked around the forum site but don't see a prompt anywhere.

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    This morning, I sent this help request to ACDelco:

    I have a problem with sealing an ACDelco air conditioning compressor to the corresponding ACDelco manifold block.

    I purchased a new ACDelco #15-20209 air conditioning compressor to replace an original OEM/GM Harrison HR6-HE compressor, GM part #1136548.

    In addition to other parts, I also purchased a new ACDelco manifold/muffler hose assembly, ACDelco #15-30152.

    The old compressor has shallow suction and discharge ports that are level with each other - in the same plane.

    The new replacement compressor has a deeper discharge port - not level with and not in the same plane as the suction port, so I cannot use the original-style THIN washers hat came with the new manifold hose assembly: seal washer kit ACDelco #15-2722, containing (2) thin washers.

    In addition to the seal washer kit that came with the manifold/muffler hose assembly, two more seal washer kits came with the compressor:

    ACDelco #15-2720 containing (2) medium thickness sealing washers
    &
    ACDelco #15-15-20058 containing (3) thick washers (red, green & yellow) and (2) inserts of unequal length (one short, one long)

    From the assortment of washers available, what is the correct combination of washers to seal the new replacement compressor's suction and discharge ports to the manifold block?

    Thanks for your help.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93CieraDude View Post
    Turbokinetic, many thanks for your turbo responses providing timely and detailed information on potential leak sources and troubleshooting!

    OK, I did some more work on the a/c system leak problem yesterday. I used rubber stoppers purchased at Ace Hardware to plug various locations in the lines to see if I could isolate the problem. For troubleshooting purposes, I also re-installed the old accumulator so I wouldn't have to worry about hydrating and ruining the new one during multiple instances of closing and re-opening the system. All vacuuming was done using my MAC Tools gauge set's low side hose attached to the a/c system low-side service port. Vacuum pump is a Yellow Jacket 4 CFM 2-stage unit with fresh oil.

    Test #1: After reinstalling the old accumulator, I did not reconnect the manifold assembly low-side hose leading to the compressor suction port. This effectively removed that section of hose from the vacuum test, including the connection/seal at the compressor. I plugged the outlet port of the accumulator with a rubber stopper, fired up the vacuum pump and opened up the low side knob on the gauge set. Vacuum pump pulled system down to 30 in a couple of minutes. Let pump run for 10 minutes, then closed knob and shut pump off. Waited another 10 minutes. Vacuum gauge remained at 30.

    Conclusion: This portion of the a/c system holds vacuum - from the accumulator outlet all the way back through the loop to the discharge side of the compressor.

    Test #2: I reconnected the manifold assembly low-side hose to the accumulator outlet port. I then disconnected the suction hose/vapor line from the evaporator outlet and plugged the end of the hose with a rubber stopper. This effectively removed from the test that portion of a/c loop from the evaporator back to the discharge side of the compressor. Fired up the vacuum pump again, opened the gauge knob and noted that the vacuum pulled the system down to 22 but no further. After closing the knob and turning the vacuum pump off, the gauge reading rapidly regressed back up to 0.

    Conclusion: The leak is between the accumulator outlet and the suction side of the compressor. I suspect a faulty seal or sealing surface between the compressor suction port and manifold.

    Test #3: Retaining the same setup as in test #2, I now disconnected the manifold from the rear head of the compressor and plugged both manifold ports with rubber stoppers. (Since the high side of the system is out of the loop for this test, plugging the high-side manifold port serves no purpose other than to avoid contaminating the port.) Fired up the vacuum pump for the 3rd time. The system pulled down to 30 and eureka! - remained that way - for HOURS!

    Conclusion & diagnosis: Incomplete seal between the compressor suction port and manifold.
    Yeah - that happens! Those Dowty sealing washers....

    Notes:

    There are no service records available for this car indicating any prior a/c work on the OEM system, nor any sticker anywhere on the car indicating the addition of fluorescent dye to the system.

    I thought about using compressed air and soap solution for troubleshooting, but tried these tests first. What PSI would be effective if using air?
    I just use whatever is in the compressor tank. My unit cycles from 80 to 100 PSI, so it would be between 80 to 100. On no account should an R12 / R134A system be pressurized over 150 PSI. That's the standard test pressure they say not to exceed on the low side.

    My vacuuming technique sequence is: manifold gauge knobs closed, turn vacuum pump on, open gauge knob, observe gauge reading, close gauge knob, turn pump off, observe gauge reading.
    Sounds good. I wasn't doubting you earlier! Just sometimes the simple things get us. I was gotten by a missing o-ring in a cap on my vacuum pump. It has the Acme port for the automotive gauges, and then a SAE port for regular industrial / HVAC ports. The SAE port cap was missing the o-ring and I spent a lot of time trying to find the leak - and bought a new gauge set thinking the problem could be there!

    I inspected the pressure switch - luckily didn't see any cracks in the plastic. Installed a new o-ring there, too.

    The OEM compressor 5/8" suction and discharge ports have sealing surfaces that are shallow and level - in the same plane. The replacement compressor has a similarly shallow sealing surface for the suction port, but the discharge port sealing surface is deeper and not in the same plane. The OEM compressor suction and discharge ports are sealed with two identical thin sealing washers. The replacement compressor supposedly requires the same thin sealing washer for its suction port, BUT the deeper discharge port requires a THICKER sealing washer. I surmise that I opted for the wrong THICK sealing washer, or WASHER COMBINATION out of the assortment provided by the two ACDelco sealing washer kits that came with the compressor, thus creating an imperfect seal between the manifold and the suction port of the compressor.

    My ACDelco sealing washer kit containing the thick washers colored red, green and yellow also contains so-called inserts. Can someone explain what these are for and how they are used?
    The Red and the Green seals seem to fit best, when installing a later-model compressor (with the unequal stepped ports) into an earlier car.

    The "extensions" are used to provide a longer "stem" at the ports of the compressor. The discharge port is especially in need of this. Because of the very thick dowty seal washer, the stem of the tube may not reach the compressor housing. This would put any possible "turning" action of the hose assembly against the rubber sealing surface - causing it to possibly leak.

    The extension is just simply driven into the tube and then the seal installed over it. I don't use the one for the suction side tube, because it's not really too short to begin with. Also, some compressors don't have a screen in the suction port, and that extension sleeve could very easily come out and fall into the compressor.

    The discharge port has a step machined into the port, where nothing can fall down into the compressor from that point anyway.

    So, it seems that my a/c leak problem might be resolved with the correct combination of sealing washers. The question now is: which ones?
    To install a late-model stepped-port compressor into a car which originally had o-ring compressor and non-stepped hose manifold, use the following. This is what I use to install V5 compressors into the cars which originally had the HR6. All the later cars which have good serviceable V5's at the junkyard are new enough to have the stepped port setup. Therefore I end up having to adapt the seals.

    Discharge: Green
    Four Seasons 24357
    NAPA PN 407278
    AutoACRepairs PN GA4506
    GM PN 2724890
    1.18" OD (29.9 mm) x 0.216" th (5.5 mm), 0.61" ID

    Suction: Red
    Four Seasons 24356
    AutoACRepairs PN GA4507
    GM PN 2724889
    1.18" OD (29.9 mm) x 0.15" th (3.8 mm), 0.61" ID

    This kit is very convenient, as it has all necessary parts under one part number:
    3-seal kit (red, grn, & yell washers, w/ inserts):
    Four Seasons 24342
    AC Delco PN 15-20058
    AutoACRepairs GA 4504-KT
    GM PN 2724887
    O'Reilly's PN 24342

    Addendum trivia: As mentioned in my last post, and in accordance with installation instructions, I finally got my new replacement compressor's shaft to turn by hand (supposedly to bring oil up to the shaft seal to lubricate it). Here are a few more details for anyone desiring to know. Previously I had poured 1 ounce of oil into the suction port and stood the compressor on its head overnight. Didn't know if it would help, but I figured it couldn't hurt. (I plan on adding the rest of the oil to the new accumulator once I confirm that my a/c system holds vacuum.) Since I didn't have a special holding jig, I finally got the compressor to turn by installing it on the car (to prevent the pulley from turning by means of the stationary serpentine drive belt). For a few bucks, I bought the special turning tool I previously referred to and used a breaker bar on a 19mm socket to turn the compressor shaft. It "popped" free and now turns easily and smoothly with a conventional ratchet. Others have reported on this issue. In the following link, note GM Tech's reply to a poster on the internet and his mention of swash plate manufacturing resin's glue-like effect on the axial plate shoes as a cause of tight shafts requiring a lot of torque to turn.

    http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...threadid=22236

    Interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by 93CieraDude View Post
    Feel sheepish for asking, but how do I start a project thread so I can upload my pics? I've looked around the forum site but don't see a prompt anywhere.
    There's a forum on the home page "Project Central" ( http://www.a-body.net/forums/forumdi...roject-Central ) where you can just start a thread as usual. As with the other parts of the forum, you won't be able to directly upload the pictures here, they will have to be hosted on Photobucket or Imgur or some similar site.

    EDIT: Noticed you've posted a reply during my typing this, so if something seems ignored that's why. Sorry!

  15. #60
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    Seems like you have the 15-20058 washer kit which should be what you need!

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